Russia gets Crimea

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michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
Oh god it was a bracket. Get over it.

If it was bush you wouldn't.

everything that Obama does wrong. The left goes to the same well 'Get over it'

Just ignore everything. and go 'lalalalaalal' nothing bad is happening.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
If it was bush you wouldn't.

everything that Obama does wrong. The left goes to the same well 'Get over it'

Just ignore everything. and go 'lalalalaalal' nothing bad is happening.

Yes because if there is one thing I am known for on this msgboard. It was my constant attacks on Bush
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
I am waiting for the chinese to annex the eastern half of Russia for its natural resources and tell Putin to get bent.

That's the more likely scenario.

If China were to aid Russia in any way, it would be so they could essentially steal the natural resources of Siberia. Any arrangement between the two will in the end be a benefit for China, not for Russia.

The notion that China would prop up Russia in order to damage the U.S.'s image is ludicrous. They would go after the resources so they can manufacture and sell more goods to western nations.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
maybe if Obama was a serious leader he would not throw stupid publicity stunts like filling out the bracket.

How much government time was wasted on that? How much time did he think about the bracket vs russia. Odds are far more.

finally. Its idiotic to think that if we leave places that hate us, that they will a) now like us, and b) not be controlled by people other people that do hate us. IE russia/china.

probably 5 seconds for the photo. cry me a river. You think Obama filled that bracket?

lulz.

every year the president fills a bracket. Every year the president pardons a turkey.
 

CLite

Golden Member
Dec 6, 2005
1,726
7
76
maybe if Obama was a serious leader he would not throw stupid publicity stunts like filling out the bracket.

How much government time was wasted on that? How much time did he think about the bracket vs russia. Odds are far more.

finally. Its idiotic to think that if we leave places that hate us, that they will a) now like us, and b) not be controlled by people other people that do hate us. IE russia/china.

Oh noooooooos Afghanistan controlled by Russia? That really has me scared.

You need to stop thinking along the lines of Russia "winning" by controlling more shit hole countries and realize it will only burden them. Trying to control Iraq & Afghanistan has only hurt us, we need less of that and more of smartly targeted warfare.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
Don't know if this has been posted yet, but here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...nd-our-unserious-response-charles-krauthammer

The following is an excerpt:

Early in the Ukraine crisis, when the Europeans were working on bringing Ukraine into the EU system and Vladimir Putin was countering with threats and bribes, one British analyst lamented that “we went to a knife fight with a baguette.”

That was three months ago. Life overtakes parody. During the Ukrainian prime minister’s visit to Washington last week, his government urgently requested military assistance. The Pentagon refused. It offered instead military ration kits.

Advertisement
Putin mobilizes thousands of troops, artillery, and attack helicopters on Ukraine’s borders and Washington counters with baguettes, American-style. One thing we can say for sure in these uncertain times: The invasion of Ukraine will be catered by the United States.
Why did we deny Ukraine weapons? Because in the Barack Obama–John Kerry worldview, arming the victim might be taken as a provocation. This kind of mind-bending illogic has marked the administration’s response to the whole Crimea affair.

Why, after all, did Obama delay responding to Putin’s infiltration, military occupation, and seizure of Crimea in the first place? In order to provide Putin with a path to deescalation, “an off-ramp,” the preferred White House phrase.

An off-ramp? Did they actually think that Putin was losing, that his invasion of Crimea was a disaster from which he needed some face-saving way out? It’s delusional enough to think that Putin — in seizing Crimea, threatening eastern Ukraine, destabilizing Kiev, shaking NATO, terrifying America’s Eastern European allies, and making the West look utterly helpless — was actually losing. But to imagine that Putin saw it that way as well and was waiting for American diplomacy to save him from a monumental blunder is totally divorced from reality.

After Obama’s Russian “reset,” missile-defense retreat, and Syria comedown, Putin had already developed an undisguised disdain for his U.S. counterpart. Yet even he must have been amazed by this newest American flight of fantasy. Putin reclaims a 200-year-old Russian patrimony with hardly a shot and to wild applause at home — Putin’s 72 percent domestic popularity is 30 points higher than Obama’s — and America’s leaders think he needs rescue?

...

As I’ve argued here before, there are things we can do: Send the secretary of defense to Kiev tomorrow to negotiate military assistance. Renew the missile-defense agreement with Poland and the Czech Republic. Announce a new policy of major U.S. exports of liquefied natural gas. Lead Europe from the front — to impose sanctions cutting off Russian enterprises from the Western banking system.

The bolded would be awesome. I'd be impressed with Obama if he did this.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
the article argues from the thinking that Putin's actions have anything to do with the US, much less Obama.

They don't. Not a thing. Putin isn't acting because "he thinks Obama is weak." That is some of the most narcissistic delusional talking points to come out of this crisis.

Now, as for the bolded--I pretty much agree: Open up NG trade with Europe, which has already been funneling money and infrastructure into Russian energy-independence over the last 5 or so years. Russia needs that revenue far more than Europe needs the juice. Renewing talks about missile defense in Poland and CZ would also be appropriate. And not just talk about it--send Kerry and Military brass over pronto
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
By the way, I wonder what Yanukovitch thinks about Russia now that it has stolen a significant portion of the country he claims to still lead.
If he vocally supports it, Putin might name him Crimean Governor for life.

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...nd-our-unserious-response-charles-krauthammer

The following is an excerpt:

The bolded would be awesome. I'd be impressed with Obama if he did this.
I too. I would have preferred that Obama more quickly enacted sanctions and hope that he now assists Ukraine to stop further Russian aggression, but in reality it would have been insane for us to intervene militarily based on Crimea (majority ethnically Russian) seceding. The rest of Ukraine, that's worth fighting for, but a cautious approach is still wise as we don't want to fight a major nuclear power if we don't have to do so. Also, we've had comparatively little progress over the last couple decades in land warfare, spending our Army and Marine equipment budgets mostly on deployment and replacement costs. Our major new expenditures have been in aircraft, and given our ever-declining number of first line aircraft and Russia's heavy modern AA defenses - doubly so given that this is in the Russian back yard and their forces are already mobilized at the border - this is not a war we want if it can be avoided without Putin rebuilding the USSR as the New Russian Empire.

the article argues from the thinking that Putin's actions have anything to do with the US, much less Obama.

They don't. Not a thing. Putin isn't acting because "he thinks Obama is weak." That is some of the most narcissistic delusional talking points to come out of this crisis.

Now, as for the bolded--I pretty much agree: Open up NG trade with Europe, which has already been funneling money and infrastructure into Russian energy-independence over the last 5 or so years. Russia needs that revenue far more than Europe needs the juice. Renewing talks about missile defense in Poland and CZ would also be appropriate. And not just talk about it--send Kerry and Military brass over pronto
American foreign policy, unity, and President are always an issue to be considered when one country invades or annexes another. Where I would agree with you is that this is not happening BECAUSE Putin sees Obama as weak. That is a factor, but given President Bush or McCain or Romney with the same circumstances, I'd be surprised if Putin would act materially differently. Reagan perhaps, but Reagan served at a time when we were in an undeclared but widely acknowledged war with the Soviets for the fate of the world so it's hard to extrapolate given the wide disparity in civilian attitudes and the fact that war is fundamentally a test of national wills.

Russian has in the last two years been pursuing bases in Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela. If we don't get the lead out and start rebuilding the missile shield program, the next President is going to inherit an America in which Russia can hurt us a lot more than we can hurt them. Russia dealing from such a position of strength would be disastrous for the world.
 

TROLLERCAUST

Member
Mar 17, 2014
182
0
0
the article argues from the thinking that Putin's actions have anything to do with the US, much less Obama.

They don't. Not a thing. Putin isn't acting because "he thinks Obama is weak." That is some of the most narcissistic delusional talking points to come out of this crisis.

Now, as for the bolded--I pretty much agree: Open up NG trade with Europe, which has already been funneling money and infrastructure into Russian energy-independence over the last 5 or so years. Russia needs that revenue far more than Europe needs the juice. Renewing talks about missile defense in Poland and CZ would also be appropriate. And not just talk about it--send Kerry and Military brass over pronto

:thumbsup:

Finland and Estonia are both planning on building LNG-terminals on their coasts, or maybe one on either country's coast, and a pipe between the countries. More money for you, more gas for us. Win-win. Also less money for Russia, win-win-win. At the moment we're importing 100 % of our natural gas from Russia. A very large majority of the energy (fossil fuels) we import comes from Russia. In the EU as a whole 29 % of our natural gas is imported from Russia. We need alternatives to Russian gas and oil. The EU has realised this and the European Council (EC) meeting's already leaked memos show that the EU is speeding up plans to reduce our dependance on Russian fossil fuel. America, sell us your gas, we'll gladly buy it.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
:thumbsup:

Finland and Estonia are both planning on building LNG-terminals on their coasts, or maybe one on either country's coast, and a pipe between the countries. More money for you, more gas for us. Win-win. Also less money for Russia, win-win-win. At the moment we're importing 100 % of our natural gas from Russia. A very large majority of the energy (fossil fuels) we import comes from Russia. In the EU as a whole 29 % of our natural gas is imported from Russia. We need alternatives to Russian gas and oil. The EU has realised this and the European Council (EC) meeting's already leaked memos show that the EU is speeding up plans to reduce our dependance on Russian fossil fuel. America, sell us your gas, we'll gladly buy it.


People forget the saying "prices are set at the margin". That means you got 2% too much of something, its value might go down 20 or 30%. Got 2% too little of something, its value might go up 20 or 30%.

Got 30% too little LNG, 30% too little oil?

Is the USA really ready for $8 - $10 / gal gasoline?

And have people forgotten that these are non-renewable resources? It's not like you can just get it anywhere by investing a little.

So now we push Russia towards closer relations with China who will gladly buy their oil.
Iran comes into this somewhere too.

And what for?

Because some formerly Russian region of Ukraine feels threatened by a EU/US sponsored violent overthrow of a democratically elected Ukrainian gov't, and decides to secede from Ukraine and rejoin Russia.


It sure seems like a real fucking stupid reason to risk crushing the global economy. How many people will still be talking tough when they're unemployed, or employed but can't afford to go back and forth to work?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
Because some formerly Russian region of Ukraine feels threatened by a EU/US sponsored violent overthrow of a democratically elected Ukrainian gov't, and decides to secede from Ukraine and rejoin Russia.

See, it's hard to take you seriously when your argument is based on crazy.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
See, it's hard to take you seriously when your argument is based on crazy.

LEGITIMACY :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2010

"he Ukrainian presidential election of 2010 is Ukraine's fifth presidential election since declaring independence from the Soviet Union in 1991. The first round was held on January 17, 2010. The run-off between Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko and opposition leader Viktor Yanukovych followed on February 7, 2010.

On February 14, Viktor Yanukovych, with 48.95% of the popular vote, was declared President-elect and winner of the 2010 Ukrainian Presidential election. "


WHY :

http://www.examiner.com/article/ukr...mid-us-russia-power-struggle-over-natural-gas

"...the US Government's goal is to develop shale gas in Ukraine using Hydraulic Fracturing. The task is very expensive, well beyond Ukraine's financial capabilities, leading the country to seek financial aid from either the European Union or Russia. In January 2013, Ukraine signed a deal with Royal Dutch Shell allowing that company to begin exploratory work ahead of fracking operations, and in November 2013 Ukraine signed a similar deal with Chevron. Meaning that Western powers were making progress in Ukraine, until the country performed an about-face and embraced Russia."


SMOKING GUNS:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrain...anced-color-revolution-training-group/5369906

"A copy of the pamphlet that was given out to opposition protestors in Kiev has been obtained. It is a word-for-word and picture-for-picture translation of the pamphlet used by US-financed Canvas organizers in the 2011 Cairo Tahrir Square protests that toppled Hosni Mubarak and opened the door to the US-backed Muslim Brotherhood."

2004 article :

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa


"But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box."
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
LEGITIMACY :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2010

"he Ukrainian presidential election of 2010 is Ukraine's fifth presidential election since declaring independence from the Soviet Union in 1991. The first round was held on January 17, 2010. The run-off between Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko and opposition leader Viktor Yanukovych followed on February 7, 2010.

On February 14, Viktor Yanukovych, with 48.95% of the popular vote, was declared President-elect and winner of the 2010 Ukrainian Presidential election. "


WHY :

http://www.examiner.com/article/ukr...mid-us-russia-power-struggle-over-natural-gas

"...the US Government's goal is to develop shale gas in Ukraine using Hydraulic Fracturing. The task is very expensive, well beyond Ukraine's financial capabilities, leading the country to seek financial aid from either the European Union or Russia. In January 2013, Ukraine signed a deal with Royal Dutch Shell allowing that company to begin exploratory work ahead of fracking operations, and in November 2013 Ukraine signed a similar deal with Chevron. Meaning that Western powers were making progress in Ukraine, until the country performed an about-face and embraced Russia."


SMOKING GUNS:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrain...anced-color-revolution-training-group/5369906

"A copy of the pamphlet that was given out to opposition protestors in Kiev has been obtained. It is a word-for-word and picture-for-picture translation of the pamphlet used by US-financed Canvas organizers in the 2011 Cairo Tahrir Square protests that toppled Hosni Mubarak and opened the door to the US-backed Muslim Brotherhood."

2004 article :

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa


"But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box."
Besides the heart-warming story of how the US led the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak, their closest non-Israeli ally in the region, in favor of the Muslim Brotherhood, be sure to check globalresearch.ca for other important stories, such as:
Real Truth vs. Fictional Truth: The Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) is a Hoax

Rwanda, 20 Years On – “100 Percent American Responsibility”

Debo Adegbile: Democrats Join Republicans in “High-Tech Lynching” of African-American Nominee to the Justice Department

And make sure you follow our important reportage on how Vladimir Putin selflessly saved part of Ukraine from the evil capitalists!

Remember, you aren't really crazy until you're globalresearch.ca crazy. The "ca" stands for "caraaazy!"
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
Besides the heart-warming story of how the US led the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak, their closest non-Israeli ally in the region, in favor of the Muslim Brotherhood, be sure to check globalresearch.ca for other important stories, such as:
Real Truth vs. Fictional Truth: The Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) is a Hoax

Rwanda, 20 Years On – “100 Percent American Responsibility”

Debo Adegbile: Democrats Join Republicans in “High-Tech Lynching” of African-American Nominee to the Justice Department

And make sure you follow our important reportage on how Vladimir Putin selflessly saved part of Ukraine from the evil capitalists!

Remember, you aren't really crazy until you're globalresearch.ca crazy. The "ca" stands for "caraaazy!"

I didn't find much need to go beyond the already supplied "smoking gun" part of that link--the "obtained" pamphlets showing how to "dress up as a protestor." Meant for both Egypt and Ukraine.

that shit, right there....is hilarious.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I didn't find much need to go beyond the already supplied "smoking gun" part of that link--the "obtained" pamphlets showing how to "dress up as a protestor." Meant for both Egypt and Ukraine.

that shit, right there....is hilarious.
Yup.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
The bolded would be awesome. I'd be impressed with Obama if he did this.

Why? That's the weak response. A strong response would be to go after the source of the problem: European economic support for rogue regimes. Why not do the same in the EU as Russia did in Crimea? The US has military bases and assets already there. Seize some territory.

The race for the colonization of Europe is beginning.
 

k3n

Senior member
Jan 15, 2001
328
1
71
Don't know if this has been posted yet, but here:

http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...nd-our-unserious-response-charles-krauthammer

The following is an excerpt:

As I’ve argued here before, there are things we can do: Send the secretary of defense to Kiev tomorrow to negotiate military assistance. Renew the missile-defense agreement with Poland and the Czech Republic. Announce a new policy of major U.S. exports of liquefied natural gas. Lead Europe from the front — to impose sanctions cutting off Russian enterprises from the Western banking system.

The bolded would be awesome. I'd be impressed with Obama if he did this.


Russia would counter by supplying almost every U.S. and non-Russian adversary with some of their most advanced weaponry, such as the Tu-22M backfire, S-400 (instead of S-300) anti air, and Su-27 flankers...
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
Russia would counter by supplying almost every U.S. and non-Russian adversary with some of their most advanced weaponry, such as the Tu-22M backfire, S-400 (instead of S-300) anti air, and Su-27 flankers...

1) That's incredibly expensive

2) Assuming that the recipient even has the ability to maintain those weapons (see: North Korea)

3) Gadget are useless without the proper training, discipline, etc.

4) I'm sure Russia's AK-47 has caused far more headaches for US troops than all those Russian/Soviet-made tanks and fighters that get blown up within seconds in recent conflicts (see: Iraq)
 
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