Russia gets Crimea

[k3n]

1) That's incredibly expensive

2) Assuming that the recipient even has the ability to maintain those weapons (see: North Korea)

3) Gadget are useless without the proper training, discipline, etc.

4) I'm sure Russia's AK-47 has caused far more headaches for US troops than all those Russian/Soviet-made tanks and fighters that get blown up within seconds in recent conflicts (see: Iraq)

I'd suggest you study Operation Rolling Thunder. Soviet Union under Gorbachev, refused to back Iraq in the Gulf War, like they did for North Korea or North Vietnam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder

Putin wouldn't hesitate having well trained Russian pilots put on the uniforms of Iranians or other adversaries.

I'd suggest you read up on Iranian aerial victories during the Iran-Iraq war; now imagine them being directly backed by Russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_aerial_victories_during_the_Iran-Iraq_war

 

[bshole]

The rest of Ukraine, that's worth fighting for, but a cautious approach is still wise as we don't want to fight a major nuclear power if we don't have to do so.

Um.... a place that 95 percent of Americans can't find on a map is worth the deaths of tens or hundreds of thousands of America's youth or perhaps a civilization ending nuclear war? The armpit of Europe is worth that? A place with a per capita GDP of 6,700/yr is worth THAT?! If that is what YOU believe, send your relatives to fight and die in that cesspool. I think it would be nice if you gave the youth of America a break and quit asking them to die because you are scared.

If Russia actually attacks a Western European first world nation (like Finland), then we can talk about a military response. Until then, why don't you and the rest of the neo-cons give the crazy talk a rest.

Attacking Russia militarily is NOT REMOTELY an option.

 

[Agent11]

Which is why Obama screwed the pooch on this one. Bluffing and blustering does not impress Putin. Sanctions merely undo the work of previous presidents who ended the cold war and improved relations with the east, and could well lead to circumstances which increase the possibility of war in the future.

The options were 'Play along, wait and see.' & 'Move troops, issue ultimatum, and prepare for combat.'

 

[zinfamous]

Which is why Obama screwed the pooch on this one. Bluffing and blustering does not impress Putin. Sanctions merely undo the work of previous presidents who ended the cold war and improved relations with the east, and could well lead to circumstances which increase the possibility of war in the future.

The options were 'Play along, wait and see.' & 'Move troops, issue ultimatum, and prepare for combat.'

Those that fought for their own freedom while under the yoke of occupation for 5 decades "ended" the cold war.

Not blustering US presidents that barely had a conscious thought beyond selling weapons to our various enemies at the time.

 

[Young Grasshopper]

1) That's incredibly expensive

2) Assuming that the recipient even has the ability to maintain those weapons (see: North Korea)

3) Gadget are useless without the proper training, discipline, etc.

4) I'm sure Russia's AK-47 has caused far more headaches for US troops than all those Russian/Soviet-made tanks and fighters that get blown up within seconds in recent conflicts (see: Iraq)

The whole point is whatever sanction/punishment the USA throws at Russia they can throw right back at the USA. It's all pointless.


Obama is getting punked by Putin but it's his own fault. Why does this country always try to police the world? Why should the government give a fuck what happens in Crimea? Or Syria for that matters? Stay out of other countries messes and focus on what is going on in this country instead.

 

[Young Grasshopper]

The rest of Ukraine, that's worth fighting for, but a cautious approach is still wise as we don't want to fight a major nuclear power if we don't have to do so.

Who is 'we'? Why is Ukraine worth fighting for? Are you willing to put you or your children at war with Russia to 'protect' a country that nearly 100% of Americans can't find on a map? Yeah I thought so. I love all of these patriotic armchair soldiers you find on the internet.

 

[Fern]

Um.... a place that 95 percent of Americans can't find on a map is worth the deaths of tens or hundreds of thousands of America's youth or perhaps a civilization ending nuclear war? The armpit of Europe is worth that? A place with a per capita GDP of 6,700/yr is worth THAT?! If that is what YOU believe, send your relatives to fight and die in that cesspool. I think it would be nice if you gave the youth of America a break and quit asking them to die because you are scared.

If Russia actually attacks a Western European first world nation (like Finland), then we can talk about a military response. Until then, why don't you and the rest of the neo-cons give the crazy talk a rest.

Attacking Russia militarily is NOT REMOTELY an option.

95% can't find their own azz on a map.

Otherwise, it's always interesting when a progressive lectures us on how we should value other peoples' worth. (In this case, they're apparently not worth much as people because they don't make enough money.)

Fern

 

[cubby1223]

The whole point is whatever sanction/punishment the USA throws at Russia they can throw right back at the USA. It's all pointless.

The US just cut off credit card processing to a few Russian banks.

How exactly can Russia do the same back?

 

[cubby1223]

95% can't find their own azz on a map.

Otherwise, it's always interesting when a progressive lectures us on how we should value other peoples' worth. (In this case, they're apparently not worth much as people because they don't make enough money.)

Fern

Every human being on the planet is equal... until we declare one group is far more valuable than another group.

 

[code65536]

Obama is getting punked by Putin but it's his own fault. Why does this country always try to police the world? Why should the government give a fuck what happens in Crimea? Or Syria for that matters? Stay out of other countries messes and focus on what is going on in this country instead.

We didn't start the mess in the Ukraine. We didn't overthrow Yanukovych--the Ukrainians did. Then Putin throws a fit, decides to show the world that he's not to be messed with, and invades. We get dragged in because they (Ukraine and our EU allies) call for our help and backing. Either we get involved (which so far hasn't been much involvement--sanctions and words), or we say "screw you, you're on your own" to our allies and ignore our obligations (like the treaty that we--along with Russia--signed guaranteeing Ukraine's sovereign integrity). The latter would have far worse long-term consequences.

In short, we are involved (in a largely secondary role because, despite all the media attention on the US, the main player here on the Western side is the EU, not the US) because this is a EU-Russia dispute, and our relationship with the EU is too important for us to throw them under the bus.


As for Syria--we're not involved. That's a big reason why that conflict has dragged on for so bloody long. The most we do in Syria is wag our fingers and condemn Assad. Just because the US has made bad decisions in the past (e.g., Iraq) and stuck our nose in places where we shouldn't doesn't mean that all interventions are bad. Yugoslavia (Bosnia/Kosovo) was an excellent example where we were absolutely right to intervene because of the genocide that was happening (and arguably, we diddled way too long before doing so). Libya was another case where intervention was well-justified. Let's not paint everything with the same brush and instead consider each case separately for it merits.

 

[cubby1223]

Obama is getting punked by Putin but it's his own fault. Why does this country always try to police the world? Why should the government give a fuck what happens in Crimea? Or Syria for that matters? Stay out of other countries messes and focus on what is going on in this country instead.

Did you know Ukraine supplies 16% of the global corn exports? Everyone needs food to eat. Do you think it is a good idea or a bad idea to have good relationships with countries that have an abundance of food supplies?

Maybe someday, young grasshopper, you'll grow up and realize what the global economy is all about. Business and trade suffers a lot from instabilities, and as a result so do the consumers who need the products.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/wi...ct-on-grain-prices-b99228114z1-250899781.html

What is happening in Ukraine has no impact on the U.S., right? It's all tucked away in a dark corner of this planet affecting nobody, right?

 

[mikeymikec]

Um.... a place that 95 percent of Americans can't find on a map is worth the deaths of tens or hundreds of thousands of America's youth...

This part of your argument reads to me like you're saying "Most Americans are ignorant so that's a good reason to turn a blind eye". It's definitely not a good precedent to set, partly because it suggests "ignorance is good". It also suggests that you would only be interested in helping others based on how big/significant their country is.

Using your logic here, I would fire a counter-argument of "how many places has America been to war in (or regarding) that 95% of Americans would be able to find on a map (if they didn't learn it in some war-related historical context)?".

PS - I'm not coming in to say, "let's go to war with Russia!", I don't really have an opinion on that particular point yet, but IMO what's been going on with Russia recently has some disturbing similarities to Nazi Germany.

 

[Jhhnn]

The US just cut off credit card processing to a few Russian banks.

How exactly can Russia do the same back?

Maybe Russian banks will quit laundering money for American businessmen. Just a thought.

 

[fskimospy]

Maybe Russian banks will quit laundering money for American businessmen. Just a thought.

Russia is heavily dependent on western finance. The opposite is clearly not true.

The US can definitely hurt Russia more than they can hurt us. To me, these sanctions should only be the start of our response to Russia's unprovoked aggression.

 

[Genx87]

Russia is heavily dependent on western finance. The opposite is clearly not true.

The US can definitely hurt Russia more than they can hurt us. To me, these sanctions should only be the start of our response to Russia's unprovoked aggression.

I say we keep upping it until they squeal. Iran is surely not better off after 30 years of sanctions. Give Russia 30 years of the same isolation and they may not have enough resources to maintain their vast stockpiles of nuclear weapons.

 

[Jaskalas]

Attacking Russia militarily is NOT REMOTELY an option.

I do not agree. Attacking Russian military forces who have invaded another country must certainly be an option. There must be a clear distinction between Russia's homeland and their forces on foreign soil. Nukes make the homeland off limits, generally speaking, but they remain fair game on other soil.

Now comes word that Russia is using force on Ukrainian bases in Crimea. I would not respond with military force for Crimea, given it has already been seized and is seemingly quite friendly to the Russians, I favor a diplomatic solution there... but for the rest of Ukraine and Europe? We must be on guard, prepared to attack at a moment's notice.

The point of a red line is that you WILL go to war if it is crossed. The West must be prepared to do so against the aggressive existential threat from the East. Invasions must be dealt with in blood.

 

[zinfamous]

Maybe Russian banks will quit laundering money for American businessmen. Just a thought.

These Russians can't trade in dollars. At some point, a US bank has to exchange dollars to a Russian bank. At some point, the oligarchs will have to deal in dollars with a US bank.

They can't do that. The world economy is controlled by dollars. This isn't really anything to sneeze over.

 

[Agent11]

The only problem with that being that we assume our position as world reserve currency will continue indefinitely.

 

[PieIsAwesome]

What is going on with all this Ukrainian military equipment being seized? The few ships they had, a sub (the only sub Ukraine had), aircraft, etc. All of that belongs to the Ukrainian military, they are getting fucked over.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140322/188661872/Russian-Navy-Flag-Raised-at-Ukraines-Only-Sub.html

"The St.Andrew's flag of the Russian Navy was raised on Ukraine's only submarine, the Zaporizhzhia, on Saturday.
The Zaporizhzhia, commissioned in 1970, will join the Russian Black Sea Fleet, which previously had three submarines."

"The submarine will be relocated to Yuzhnaya Bay where the Russian Black Sea is based."

They basically stole it.

 

[Incorruptible]

Maybe Russian banks will quit laundering money for American businessmen. Just a thought.

Maybe the government should stop taxing them too much and wasting money on idiotic government programs.

 

[IOException]

Why does this country always try to police the world? Why should the government give a fuck what happens in Crimea? Or Syria for that matters? Stay out of other countries messes and focus on what is going on in this country instead.

Because the last time we tried to stay out the fray, the Schutzstaffel nearly succeeded in creating the New Order.

That being said, I'm all for no military engagement, but that doesn't mean we can't take a political stand and place economic sanctions. War isn't fought by bullets alone. This is something that the Chinese have become experts at but we Americans are simply to stupid to accept.

 

[code65536]

The only problem with that being that we assume our position as world reserve currency will continue indefinitely.

Do you know what being the world reserve currency gets us?

1) Seigniorage. The Federal Reserve estimates that the US Government earns about $6 to 7 billion per year of additional seigniorage from the amount of dollars held overseas. That's the biggest, most quantifiable benefit, except that, relative to the size of our economy or even the Federal Budget, it's a rounding error.

2) Bragging rights. I guess some would put a price on chest-pounding...

3) Strong (aka, overvalued) dollar. You realize that this isn't necessarily a good thing, right? The dollar is and has long been overvalued, in large part because of its role as a reserve currency. On the upside, it means that we can import more cheaply (yay, $100 TVs from China!), and on the downside, it means that our exports are less competitive overseas. Why do we outsource so much? Because the dollar is overvalued. Why do we import so much stuff? Because the dollar is overvalued. Why do we run a persistent year-after-year trade deficit? Because the dollar is overvalued. Under normal circumstances, chronic trade deficits will weaken the currency, which makes imports more expensive, exports more competitive, thereby naturally restoring the trade balance--a chronic currency overvaluation thus necessarily also means chronic trade deficits.

The people who freak out about the dollar possibly weakening also often complain about how much of our industry we are losing to China. Well, pick one. Because you can't have both. If having such a strong currency is so good for the country, why on earth would Beijing go through so much trouble to keep theirs artificially undervalued?


Anyway, if the dollar is to be displaced as the world's reserve currency because of this spat with Russia, what could replace it?

* Euro: The world's second biggest reserve currency. Except the EU and US are in lock-step over this Russia thing. Also, the European monetary union was a pretty dumb thing to begin with. A monetary union without a fiscal union and without the free flow of labor (setting up a common labor market doesn't change the fact that linguistic and cultural barriers severely restrict the redistribution of labor) is not a sound monetary union. And the Europeans are finally learning this lesson--a bit too late, though.

* Japanese Yen: Japan doesn't like Russia, either. And their economy still hasn't recovered from their financial crisis two decades ago.

* Chinese RMB: Do you know how much effort Beijing goes through to keep the RMB undervalued (to boost exports), which includes a lot of restrictions on the use and foreign dissemination of their currency that would make the RMB very, very unpalatable for use as a reserve currency? Yea, that'll be the day.

* Russian Ruble: The Russian economy is a one-trick pony based largely on oil and gas exports. Energy prices go up, and Putin gets a ton of money that he can throw around to basically buy the love of the people. Energy prices slump, and the government loses its ability to afford such largesse, country goes into a slump, and Putin then needs stir up the nationalist fervor and redirect anger outwards to remain popular. Nobody in their right mind would use the currency of such a fragile and non-diversified economy as a reserve currency.


There simply aren't any currencies (except maybe the Euro) that can take the place of the Dollar. And, you know what? It would be good for the US economy for the dollar to lose its status as reserve currency. $7 billion and a smidge of pride is a bargain-basement price to pay to fix our messed-up trade deficit problem and save US industry and manufacturing.

 

[Bitek]

Russia is heavily dependent on western finance. The opposite is clearly not true.

The US can definitely hurt Russia more than they can hurt us. To me, these sanctions should only be the start of our response to Russia's unprovoked aggression.

I say we keep upping it until they squeal. Iran is surely not better off after 30 years of sanctions. Give Russia 30 years of the same isolation and they may not have enough resources to maintain their vast stockpiles of nuclear weapons.

+1.

I don't understand all the spazing out by the doves thinking the only choice is drop bombs or do nothing (ergo do nothing.) There are a load of options we have to turn the screws on Putin.

What we need to carefully consider is how much we want to back them into a corner. Putin was obviously feeling nervous and boxed in, so this outburst is not surprising. Push too hard and he will push hard back.

It's a fine line the EU and Obama are going to have to walk.

 

[Genx87]

What is going on with all this Ukrainian military equipment being seized? The few ships they had, a sub (the only sub Ukraine had), aircraft, etc. All of that belongs to the Ukrainian military, they are getting fucked over.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140322/188661872/Russian-Navy-Flag-Raised-at-Ukraines-Only-Sub.html

"The St.Andrew's flag of the Russian Navy was raised on Ukraine's only submarine, the Zaporizhzhia, on Saturday.
The Zaporizhzhia, commissioned in 1970, will join the Russian Black Sea Fleet, which previously had three submarines."

"The submarine will be relocated to Yuzhnaya Bay where the Russian Black Sea is based."

They basically stole it.

Redistribution of wealth comrade. Russia is redistributing it to themselves.

 

[code65536]

What is going on with all this Ukrainian military equipment being seized? The few ships they had, a sub (the only sub Ukraine had), aircraft, etc. All of that belongs to the Ukrainian military, they are getting fucked over.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140322/188661872/Russian-Navy-Flag-Raised-at-Ukraines-Only-Sub.html

"The St.Andrew's flag of the Russian Navy was raised on Ukraine's only submarine, the Zaporizhzhia, on Saturday.
The Zaporizhzhia, commissioned in 1970, will join the Russian Black Sea Fleet, which previously had three submarines."

"The submarine will be relocated to Yuzhnaya Bay where the Russian Black Sea is based."

They basically stole it.

The story becomes far less dramatic when you read the history of the ship.

Built by the USSR in Leningrad, was a part of USSR/Russia's Black Sea Fleet from 1990 until 1997 (Northern Fleet before that). That's when it broke down, and Russia couldn't afford to fix it, so they gave it to Ukraine, which apparently also couldn't afford to fix it because it wasn't repaired until 14 years later, in 2011. And now it's back in Russian hands.

"Hey, Ukraine, thanks for babysitting and fixing up our sub. We'll take it back now."

It's a dick move, but whatever. It's obsolete and the only submarine of its class that's still operating (all of its brethren were scrapped or turned into museums years ago), so it's largely symbolic.