Russia gets Crimea

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raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,884
569
126
Every human being on the planet is equal... until we declare one group is far more valuable than another group.

What a statement :thumbsup:

Apparently money and power defines one's "worth" to a lot of people. Respect of other humans is out the window.
 

Broheim

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2011
4,592
2
81
why did the indian version switch from a 2 seater to a 1 seat version

the bulk of the FGFAs were always going to be single seaters, my guess is with all the cost overruns and delays the small twin seater batch just became too expensive.
 

TROLLERCAUST

Member
Mar 17, 2014
182
0
0
well i was speaking informally

to me scandanavia and nordics and norsica are all comparable terms

the meaning of the word scandanavia is not total agreement

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia


Off-topic rant:

They're not. To me Finland is a Baltic state. Before WW2 Finland was included in Baltic states and had we been occupied and became independent again in -91, we'd still be considered a Baltic state. The Scandinavians won't accept Finns as Scandinavians because of our language which is a Balto-Finnic language in the Uralic language family while the Scandinavians speak Germanic languages in the Indo-European language family. Scandinavia isn't a geographic term but rather a cultural-linguistic or whatever term. If it were a geographic term Denmark should be excluded and Finland possibly included because parts of northern Finland are in the Scandic mountain range. A sure way to get Scandinavians go on a rant in Reddit is to call Finland a Scandinavian country. This is serious business here in the north.

Not sure what "norsica" means. :hmm:

Russia might consider Finland in its sphere of influence even today but I'm ready to show them where they can stick their "spheres of influences" if it comes to that. I left my RK 62 (assault rifle) in good oil.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
They're not. To me Finland is a Baltic state. Before WW2 Finland was included in Baltic states and had we been occupied and became independent again in -91, we'd still be considered a Baltic state. The Scandinavians won't accept Finns as Scandinavians because of our language which is a Balto-Finnic language in the Uralic language family while the Scandinavians speak Germanic languages in the Indo-European language family. Scandinavia isn't a geographic term but rather a cultural-linguistic or whatever term. If it were a geographic term Denmark should be excluded and Finland possibly included because parts of northern Finland are in the Scandic mountain range. A sure way to get Scandinavians go on a rant in Reddit is to call Finland a Scandinavian country. This is serious business here in the north.

well i count finland and karelia and estonia and the other smaller ethnicities as nordics

besides many finnish have a lot of swedish heritage

Not sure what "norsica" means

just a random word i came up with for plural norse

the warhammer universe uses the norseca or something like that
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
the bulk of the FGFAs were always going to be single seaters, my guess is with all the cost overruns and delays the small twin seater batch just became too expensive.

so i could go spend hours looking at some of this stuff but what is the difference between the fgfa and the amca

also do you know anything about the current state of the drdo tank program? they started upgrading the arjun again but they also apparently still have a next generation tank program
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
Off-topic rant:

They're not. To me Finland is a Baltic state. Before WW2 Finland was included in Baltic states and had we been occupied and became independent again in -91, we'd still be considered a Baltic state. The Scandinavians won't accept Finns as Scandinavians because of our language which is a Balto-Finnic language in the Uralic language family while the Scandinavians speak Germanic languages in the Indo-European language family. Scandinavia isn't a geographic term but rather a cultural-linguistic or whatever term. If it were a geographic term Denmark should be excluded and Finland possibly included because parts of northern Finland are in the Scandic mountain range. A sure way to get Scandinavians go on a rant in Reddit is to call Finland a Scandinavian country. This is serious business here in the north.

aye. Finnish and Estonian share a very close heritage and, iirc, Talinn was once a historic capital of Finland? Lithuanian and Latvian are closer languages, and really share no similarities to Estonia.

They were once part of historic Prussian empire, even when that was a Lithuanian empire, though I do not think that Latvian, at least, shares a history with the German languages?

I could be confusing those capitals--I recall that Sweden once claimed part of Latvia's territory and Riga was once considered Sweden's capital?
 

TROLLERCAUST

Member
Mar 17, 2014
182
0
0
aye. Finnish and Estonian share a very close heritage and, iirc, Talinn was once a historic capital of Finland? Lithuanian and Latvian are closer languages, and really share no similarities to Estonia.

They were once part of historic Prussian empire, even when that was a Lithuanian empire, though I do not think that Latvian, at least, shares a history with the German languages?

I could be confusing those capitals--I recall that Sweden once claimed part of Latvia's territory and Riga was once considered Sweden's capital?

You're confusing the capitals. Finland has had two capitals, Turku and Helsinki but not Tallinn.

Stockholm has always (?) been Sweden's capital, Sweden did rule Latvia (and Estonia) from the 1600's till 1721 when Russia conquered them iirc. The Teutonic Knights once ruled the Baltic states. As a result many German speakers moved to the Baltics.
 

TROLLERCAUST

Member
Mar 17, 2014
182
0
0
well i count finland and karelia and estonia and the other smaller ethnicities as nordics

besides many finnish have a lot of swedish heritage

Ok. But that's how you see things. I see Finland as a Baltic state but I don't go calling it that on the internet because most people disagree with it and it creates unnecessary confusion. Like calling Finland a Scandinavian country would do.

Edit:
This thread has gone off-topic for a few pages now so might as well link a news story:
http://news.msn.com/world/crimeas-tatars-flee-for-ukraine-far-west

Russia's annexation of Crimea has sent hundreds of the region's ethnic Tatars fleeing the peninsula for western Ukraine out of fear of a backlash from Moscow

The Tatars, a native Muslim community of about 300,000, largely boycotted a March 16 referendum on whether their historic homeland should come under Kremlin control.

Memories of the mass deportations organised under Moscow's Soviet rule in the 1940s are still fresh in the Turkic-speaking minority.

And after Russia's seizure of Ukraine's last airbase in Crimea on Saturday -- which Kiev fears could herald an imminent Russian invasion -- many fear Tatars could be targeted again.

"This journey is like leaving the Soviet Union for a different country," said Adele, a Tatar arriving for the first time in Ukraine's westernmost city.
Along with hundreds of other Tatars, most of them women and children, she made the 30-hour, 1,200-kilometre (745-mile) train trip across Ukraine to Lviv.

Known as "the little Paris of Ukraine," the western city's government and residents have opened their doors to the new arrivals.

Local authorities say nearly 2,000 people from Crimea and neighbouring areas have temporarily settled in the region, more than half of them children.
Crimean Tatars fleeing Crimea, their homeland.

Crimean Tatars considering their own referendum. Lets see how much Putin really likes democracy
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/25/us-ukraine-crisis-crimea-tatars-idUSBREA2O1F320140325
Crimea's indigenous Tatars are considering their own referendum on whether to be part of Ukraine or Russia, the leader of the Muslim minority said on Tuesday, in a challenge to Moscow that could further destabilize the region.

Refat Chubarov, the head of the Crimean Tatars' main assembly, told Reuters that the body's 250 members would meet on Saturday to debate the future of the 300,000-strong community in the wake of Russia's annexation of Crimea.

"In the space of three weeks we've found ourselves in a completely different de facto situation," Chubarov said in an interview. "The Crimean Tatars should determine their fate themselves."

"Nobody asked us, the Crimean Tatars ... in what conditions we want to live," he said. "Should the question feature prominently during the meeting, we will seek options of holding our own referendum."
This is interesting because separatism in Russia is illegal and people advocating separation can be sent to jail (from 2013, the bill passed):
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/11/08/uk-russia-separatism-idUKBRE9A70ZB20131108

Joining Russia, "We welcome you democratic freedom-fighters!"
Separating from Russia, "You evil criminal, off to prison with you!"
 
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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Ok. But that's how you see things. I see Finland as a Baltic state but I don't go calling it that on the internet because most people disagree with it and it creates unnecessary confusion. Like calling Finland a Scandinavian country would do.

finland has close ties with the other scandanavian countries so i am not sure you are correct
 

Broheim

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2011
4,592
2
81
so i could go spend hours looking at some of this stuff but what is the difference between the fgfa and the amca

also do you know anything about the current state of the drdo tank program? they started upgrading the arjun again but they also apparently still have a next generation tank program

I think the AMCA is more about building up a strong domestic aeronautical industry than the actual plane. The FGFA is definitely going to be the more capable aircraft, the AMCA is more of a investment in the future than actual aircraft.

I guess their drdo program is dead, but they're still looking for a new light tank. I don't know anything about a next gen MBT coming out of India, the Arjun only entered service recently so it'll be quite a while before it's up for replacement.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
I think the AMCA is more about building up a strong domestic aeronautical industry than the actual plane. The FGFA is definitely going to be the more capable aircraft, the AMCA is more of a investment in the future than actual aircraft.

they definitly need a strong defense industry

japan has had one for years even when they technically do not even have a military

was so mad when the norwegian defense ministry bought the f-35 instead of the gripin. was full of corruption also
 

TROLLERCAUST

Member
Mar 17, 2014
182
0
0
finland has close ties with the other scandanavian countries so i am not sure you are correct

I'm not sure what we're even talking about anymore.

Yes, Finland is a Nordic country, no Finland isn't a Scandinavian country (because of our language) and no Finland isn't a Baltic country (altho in my opinion it can be seen as one).
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
I'm not sure what we're even talking about anymore.

Yes, Finland is a Nordic country, no Finland isn't a Scandinavian country (because of our language) and no Finland isn't a Baltic country (altho in my opinion it can be seen as one).

I think us Americans make such associations due to how we interpret maps:

Sweden, Norway, and Finland? Those triple penis-looking countries clustered over there? Must be related.

OH look, cool Venn Diagram:



This agrees 100% with your description: Finland= Nordic, not Scandinavian, and "sometimes Baltic" (by way of Estonia).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltoscandia
 
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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
I'm not sure what we're even talking about anymore.

Yes, Finland is a Nordic country, no Finland isn't a Scandinavian country (because of our language) and no Finland isn't a Baltic country (altho in my opinion it can be seen as one).

you are apparently unaware of the fact that baltic countries speak their own branch of indo european

and i would have no trouble accepting latvia and lithuania as nordics

estonia has also been pushing for greater acceptance among nordic countries. finland has already been well accepted for some time now
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
I think us Americans make such associations due to how we interpret maps:

Sweden, Norway, and Finland? Those triple penis-looking countries clustered over there? Must be related.

OH look, cool Venn Diagram:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia

More presisely, and subject to no dispute, is that finland is amongst the Nordic countries.

also germany does not view denmark as scandanavia

wondering why that is

probably want all that land for germany

there were quite a few wars over land between them
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltoscandia

this i agree with

once putin gets overthrown and russia descends into chaos then we can add karelia and ingria and the other related ethnic groups and maybe even some non related ones
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
also since when is a country inhabited by ethnic scandanavians not considered a scandanavian country simply because it resides outside of geographical scandanavia
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
you are apparently unaware of the fact that baltic countries speak their own branch of indo european

and i would have no trouble accepting latvia and lithuania as nordics

estonia has also been pushing for greater acceptance among nordic countries. finland has already been well accepted for some time now

Not Estonian, though. It doesn't share branches with Latvian or Lithuanian. It is directly related to Finnish, which is likewise not related to Swedish or Norwegian.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Not Estonian, though. It doesn't share branches with Latvian or Lithuanian. It is directly related to Finnish, which is likewise not related to Swedish or Norwegian.

yes i know that

the lituanians and latvians do however and their language family is called baltic

wikipedia says that latvia is considered the most baltic country and lithuanian is related
 

TROLLERCAUST

Member
Mar 17, 2014
182
0
0
you are apparently unaware of the fact that baltic countries speak their own branch of indo european

and i would have no trouble accepting latvia and lithuania as nordics

estonia has also been pushing for greater acceptance among nordic countries. finland has already been well accepted for some time now

I'm not unaware of that fact. Also Estonian isn't Indo-European. I'm not sure what we're talking about really.

this i agree with

once putin gets overthrown and russia descends into chaos then we can add karelia and ingria and the other related ethnic groups and maybe even some non related ones

Karelian and Ingrian Finnish are pretty much dying languages. Uralic languages are not doing so well in Russia. Many areas went through intense russification during Soviet times. Those areas are Russian nowadays.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
397
126
Depending on how isolated they become. I think it is possible they become more like Iran. And energy rich state that is poor and run by fanatics.


Then you're falling into exactly the trap that I outlined.

I did not intend to get into a "SU-35 vs F-22" debate.

I'll say that I absolutely believe the F-22 is superior. The F-35 - frankly that does not yet exist in service (and neither does the PAK-FA).

But none of that really matters.

What I'm saying is that the fact that an SU-27, SU-30, SU-35 exists in the first place and that they originate from Russia implies something.

Specifically, that they are not like Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Libya, Syria - who all make nothing.

The fact that Russia designed, tested, built, and exported those weapons implies a magnitude of order more capability on their part.

And you're comparing the country that built and designed those aircraft to Iran, who builds exactly what? Oh wait, they've spent the last 10 years trying to make a nuclear reactor - something Russia did what, 65 years ago?
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
why have we not given massive military aid to ukraine yet?

we should be shipping them small arms man portable missiles and logistics equipment by the ton
Because we shouldn't be.

I was in the Marines during the cold war, 1980-1984.

We should have went straight into Afghastan long ago if we we're gonna be serious, the Russians are probably still laughing about that one.

The Iraq thing I'm still after all these years scratching my head over a bit.
 
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