Russia gets Crimea

Page 30 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
you act as if the eu is a thoughtless and neutral rock
Not at all, but they are rational. Rational people don't want their gas cut off during the winter or doubling in price. Not if the alternative is loaning Ukraine a few more billion to buy Russian gas at a higher price. It's not rocket surgery, they can count how much each of the two alternatives will cost them, and decide accordingly.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
I'm sure that the Chinese and Israelis are watching this with keen interest, because the Russian is proving that the UN & NATO have no teeth when dealing illegal land grabs.
You've got that right, even if no one was really in a position to stop it initially to begin with.

Though the UN has always been a bit weak to begin with and Crimea wasn't a NATO member.

One of the reasons Putin went there, he didn't want it to be one and entry had been stalled if he left it alone if I remember right.
 
Last edited:

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Ah, my bad. Coupled with the university bit I thought you meant as a career choice. As I said, I was impressed enough to subscribe for years. These are not generally people who share my own world view, but they write good, informed, in-depth articles well worth the read. It's always good to have one's views challenged by smart people.

actually i am thinking about global studies and international relations for education but i meant the magazine foreign policy

www.foreignpolicy.com
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Not at all, but they are rational. Rational people don't want their gas cut off during the winter or doubling in price. Not if the alternative is loaning Ukraine a few more billion to buy Russian gas at a higher price. It's not rocket surgery, they can count how much each of the two alternatives will cost them, and decide accordingly.

however at the moment putin and russia are highly dependent on the eu to buy that gas and also to sustain crimea with basic electricity

and so maybe putin can leverage his side more but it is not a one sided conflict
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Not at all, but they are rational. Rational people don't want their gas cut off during the winter or doubling in price. Not if the alternative is loaning Ukraine a few more billion to buy Russian gas at a higher price. It's not rocket surgery, they can count how much each of the two alternatives will cost them, and decide accordingly.

also the higher gas prices affect the eu

what is going to happen if the eu is not able to avoid the higher prices of gas?

they could make russia pay through the nose with sanctions if russia is not willing to consider the eu needs at the same time with the conflict with the ukrainians
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
You've got that right, even if no one was really in a position to stop it initially to begin with. Though the UN has always been a bit weak there to begin with and Crimea wasn't a NATO member. One of the reasons Putin went there, he didn't want it to be one and entry had been stalled if he left it alone if I remember right.

and the world has noted that china and india and vietnam have absained

so russia has lost some world standing
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
I'm sure that the Chinese and Israelis are watching this with keen interest, because the Russian is proving that the UN & NATO have no teeth when dealing illegal land grabs.

Exactly.

Israel not all too important. But it would definitely be to our detriment if China begins seizing lands. There is a lot of value there, especially in Taiwan, whom China already believes is theirs.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
Exactly.

Israel not all too important. But it would definitely be to our detriment if China begins seizing lands. There is a lot of value there, especially in Taiwan, whom China already believes is theirs.
Taiwan would be a whole different subject I'm sure if China did that as there are solid existing pacts there I believe.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
I'm sure that the Chinese and Israelis are watching this with keen interest, because the Russian is proving that the UN & NATO have no teeth when dealing illegal land grabs.

I don't think this is telling China anything about the UN.

They already knew that everybody on the Security Council has a veto, thus rendering the UN toothless when dealing with those members.

China may one day have an interest in grabbing some land in Russia. Their side of the border is over populated from what I read.

Fern
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
There is a lot of value there, especially in Taiwan, whom China already believes is theirs.

No. The dynamic between Russia/Ukraine/Crimea is completely different from that of China/Taiwan.

China/Taiwan split because of a bloody civil war, so it is more like North and South Korea. Taiwan is armed to the teeth (with modern Western hardware) and is always-vigilant about a Chinese invasion, which must cross a good stretch of sea. Taiwan is rich, prosperous, and has a large, well-funded, well-trained military, unlike Ukraine. Their military is larger than that of the UK or France. There are active military agreements with Taiwan and the US that Ukraine doesn't have. There isn't a backdoor into Taiwan in the form of a Chinese naval base. Crimea already had partial independence (its status was that of an autonomous region), so Ukraine's power in Crimea was limited to start with, and Crimea's local government was enthusiastically in favor of the break and annexation (it kinda helps when the locals don't view the invaders as invaders, ya know?).

And China has always maintained the Taiwanese government as illegitimate and that it is the rightful ruler of Taiwan, and Taiwan's government views itself as the rightful ruler of China, so these claims and legal arguments aren't novel and Russia's use of them isn't going to change anything here.

The West would much more forcefully respond to Taiwan than to Crimea. First, because the Crimean invasion happened with virtually no shots fired (except for a few isolated cases) and with the Crimeans welcoming the Russians, who were relatively low in number (measured in thousands or tens of thousands), whereas a Taiwanese invasion would necessarily have to be the guns-blazing, missiles-flying, type with lots of violence, and a huge number of troops (China would need at least a few hundred thousand). Taiwan can defend itself, and it's willing to defend itself, unlike the Crimeans, who weren't willing and couldn't even if they wanted to. Second, because there are military agreements in place. Ukraine isn't a member of the EU, nor is it a member of NATO. If Russia invades a NATO country and NATO twiddles its fingers (which would be unthinkable), then we can talk about this being applicable to Taiwan. Third, Taiwan matters. Economically, Ukraine is footnote. Taiwan's economic role in the world is much larger (e.g., TSMC), so there would be far, far, more at stake.

Crimea is a unique case that really isn't applicable anywhere else in the world.
 
Last edited:

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
fuck no

way too small

Hence "at least". I originally said "at least a million", but thought to err on the side of caution, to account for cases where they catch Taiwan off guard and things go exceptionally well. Taiwan's active ground forces are something like 130K, and if things happen so quickly that the reserves (1.6 mil) can't be called up, then... eh.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Not at all, but they are rational. Rational people don't want their gas cut off during the winter or doubling in price. Not if the alternative is loaning Ukraine a few more billion to buy Russian gas at a higher price. It's not rocket surgery, they can count how much each of the two alternatives will cost them, and decide accordingly.

For now. Eventually other supply will be found. OPEC lost a lot of its power via embargo's in the 70's. They had the west by the balls for awhile until the West found other sources of supply. The result was a loss of power by OPEC. Russia keeps it up and Europe will find other sources of gas.
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
For now. Eventually other supply will be found. OPEC lost a lot of its power via embargo's in the 70's. They had the west by the balls for awhile until the West found other sources of supply. The result was a loss of power by OPEC. Russia keeps it up and Europe will find other sources of gas.

Yea, but these changes happen on the time scale of years or even decades. Imports from the US would not be cost-effective (and would be more expensive than Russian gas), plus, that infrastructure isn't something you can build overnight. New exploitation of Europe's own gas reserves could take a decade before it can yield something meaningful.

Personally, they should take a cue from the French and just build nuclear plants all over. The technology's safer than ever, it's emissions-free, it provides relatively inexpensive, stable, baseline power unlike renewables. But that, too, will take many years. Hopefully all this will get Germany to reconsider their idiotic plan to scrap nuclear power.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Personally, they should take a cue from the French and just build nuclear plants all over. The technology's safer than ever, it's emissions-free, it provides relatively inexpensive, stable, baseline power unlike renewables. But that, too, will take many years. Hopefully all this will get Germany to reconsider their idiotic plan to scrap nuclear power.

nuclear power supported by renewables is the way to go
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
No. The dynamic between Russia/Ukraine/Crimea is completely different from that of China/Taiwan.

China/Taiwan split because of a bloody civil war, so it is more like North and South Korea. Taiwan is armed to the teeth (with modern Western hardware) and is always-vigilant about a Chinese invasion, which must cross a good stretch of sea. Taiwan is rich, prosperous, and has a large, well-funded, well-trained military, unlike Ukraine. Their military is larger than that of the UK or France. There are active military agreements with Taiwan and the US that Ukraine doesn't have. There isn't a backdoor into Taiwan in the form of a Chinese naval base. Crimea already had partial independence (its status was that of an autonomous region), so Ukraine's power in Crimea was limited to start with, and Crimea's local government was enthusiastically in favor of the break and annexation (it kinda helps when the locals don't view the invaders as invaders, ya know?).

And China has always maintained the Taiwanese government as illegitimate and that it is the rightful ruler of Taiwan, and Taiwan's government views itself as the rightful ruler of China, so these claims and legal arguments aren't novel and Russia's use of them isn't going to change anything here.

The West would much more forcefully respond to Taiwan than to Crimea. First, because the Crimean invasion happened with virtually no shots fired (except for a few isolated cases) and with the Crimeans welcoming the Russians, who were relatively low in number (measured in thousands or tens of thousands), whereas a Taiwanese invasion would necessarily have to be the guns-blazing, missiles-flying, type with lots of violence, and a huge number of troops (China would need at least a few hundred thousand). Taiwan can defend itself, and it's willing to defend itself, unlike the Crimeans, who weren't willing and couldn't even if they wanted to. Second, because there are military agreements in place. Ukraine isn't a member of the EU, nor is it a member of NATO. If Russia invades a NATO country and NATO twiddles its fingers (which would be unthinkable), then we can talk about this being applicable to Taiwan. Third, Taiwan matters. Economically, Ukraine is footnote. Taiwan's economic role in the world is much larger (e.g., TSMC), so there would be far, far, more at stake.

Crimea is a unique case that really isn't applicable anywhere else in the world.

Every situation is unique. But there are enough similarities. The main point was we don't want China expanding its borders, which it clearly wants to do with Taiwan in a similar way to Russia in that it believes the lands it wants rightfully belongs to them.

But the problem with an active war for Taiwan (for either side) is most of the value is destroyed, the knowledges and technologies held by the people living there.


And, for the record, I'm not convinced the people living in Crimea were all so "Come Russia, please save us from the west!" as Russia Today claims, and I don't believe the referendum vote was conducted fairly nor tallied fairly. Russia needed that moment of chaos within Ukraine.
 
Last edited:

TROLLERCAUST

Member
Mar 17, 2014
182
0
0
A new republic has been declared, the Donetsk People's Republic, in Donetsk Ukraine. Pro-Russia activists are occupying the regional administration building in Donetsk. A referendum is supposed to be in May about the region's future. History repeating itself.
Terijoki government 1939 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terijoki_Government
Donetsk People's Republic 2014 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_Donetsk

Shit is getting serious in eastern Ukraine. We'll see how long it takes this time for unidentified professionally armed 'self-defence' forces to appear on the streets of Donetsk.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Yes, all it takes is a few of these self defense forces to find tanks, helicopters, and entire warships at their local police department.
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,420
7,335
136
Yes, all it takes is a few of these self defense forces to find tanks, helicopters, and entire warships at their local police department.
lol. Don't forget the full military uniforms, body armor, and weapons, and some foreign military insignias tattooed on their arms... All at the local police station.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Russia doesn't want it:
http://english.pravda.ru/news/hotspots/07-04-2014/127286-russia_peacekeepers_ukraine-0/
The head of the Defense Committee of the Federation Council excludes the deployment of Russian peacekeepers in the east of Ukraine without an adequate decision from the Security Council of the United Nations.

Russia doesn't want Eastern Ukraine. Eastern Ukraine is a huge consumer of Russian gas, Russia wants them on the Western dole, so they can take the lion's share of that loan money. Of course to keep the dole coming, Russia needs to keep those regions unstable, so that the West is scared of unrest and keeps subsidizing them.
People are confusing Eastern Ukraine with Crimea, when it is totally different math. Crimea was Ukraine's leverage over Russia, as long as it remained in Ukraine, because of the fleet basing rights. Eastern Ukraine is Russian leverage over Ukraine, as long as it remains in Ukraine, because Eastern Ukraine was built around Russian gas by design. So the math in Eastern Ukraine is completely opposite of Crimea. Russia will keep Eastern Ukraine in Ukraine, but will make it a trouble area for Kiev and the West that requires a constant flow of money, most of which will end up in Russia, to pacify.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
lol. Don't forget the full military uniforms, body armor, and weapons, and some foreign military insignias tattooed on their arms... All at the local police station.

When the zombie apocalypse happens. Ill run right on down to my local PD and get me a tank, rocket launcher, and lots of ammo. Putin said so.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Russia doesn't want it:
http://english.pravda.ru/news/hotspots/07-04-2014/127286-russia_peacekeepers_ukraine-0/


Russia doesn't want Eastern Ukraine. Eastern Ukraine is a huge consumer of Russian gas, Russia wants them on the Western dole, so they can take the lion's share of that loan money. Of course to keep the dole coming, Russia needs to keep those regions unstable, so that the West is scared of unrest and keeps subsidizing them.
People are confusing Eastern Ukraine with Crimea, when it is totally different math. Crimea was Ukraine's leverage over Russia, as long as it remained in Ukraine, because of the fleet basing rights. Eastern Ukraine is Russian leverage over Ukraine, as long as it remains in Ukraine, because Eastern Ukraine was built around Russian gas by design. So the math in Eastern Ukraine is completely opposite of Crimea. Russia will keep Eastern Ukraine in Ukraine, but will make it a trouble area for Kiev and the West that requires a constant flow of money, most of which will end up in Russia, to pacify.


So they don't want it until they want it?
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
Pravda? Really?

But... but... it means truth!

Seriously, though, mouthpieces like Pravda or China's Xinhua are still useful in a way. Of course, I wouldn't trust them to report facts on the ground, but it's still useful to know what Russia's official position nominally is. It's like Putin himself saying that he has no intention of invading. Now, whether we trust that slimy snake is an entirely different matter...
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |