Russia gets Crimea

[norseamd]

In Soviet Russia the minority is the majority.

the contempary fundamentalist russians running around today are neither communists nor soviets

given what the communist philosophy was the russians make a mockery of it

 

[Olikan]

They wanted to be annexed so bad the party dedicated to joining Russia got 4% of the votes in the last election? Now just for the icing on the cake. That party's leader is now leading Crimea.

Sounds legit!

a fear of civil war really changes people minds

 

[rpsgc]

It was a 'In Soviet Russia' joke with the 'soviet' part removed.


It was a joke. Feel free to over analyse this post too.

 

[JTsyo]

According to a "wings of red star" documentary on Yak-38, supercarriers, weren't permitted to cross the Bosphorus, Red or Blue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YoNpkkdkFs
China, which got its current supercarrier from Ukraine, had to have it's engine's removed and be classified as a sea "casino", so as not to conflict with the Montreux convention of 1936, see last paragraph of the following link. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/naval-arms-control-1936.htm

If one wishes to mount a successful invasion into Russia, from the west similar to Napoleon and Hitler, then Crimea is indeed a great place for re-supplying, as its ports aren't frozen during the winter. Unless Turkey doesn't mind Istanbul/Constantinople being turned into a radioactive wasteland, it would be foolish, to let offensive NATO ships, i.e. supercarriers.

Russian Mindset, by the Caspian Report (narrator is of Azerbaijani descent; they don't get along with Russians and Armenians)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6rSljTwdU

Lol: Why did Israel fail to back US-supported UN resolution on Crimea?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/why-di...-us-supported-un-resolution-on-crimea/5375803

I wouldn't think the US would want to put a carrier fleet in the Black Sea. That would make them sitting ducks. There plenty of NATO nations in the area for US to use airfields. There's no reason to risk a carrier.

 

[fskimospy]

a fear of civil war really changes people minds

I imagine illegal invasion and occupation can too.

 

[norseamd]

It was a 'In Soviet Russia' joke with the 'soviet' part removed. It was a joke. Feel free to over analyse this post too.

no that is fine

what i am saying is that the russians are considered wanting to return to the communist times when they are nothing like the soviets

 

[norseamd]

I wouldn't think the US would want to put a carrier fleet in the Black Sea. That would make them sitting ducks. There plenty of NATO nations in the area for US to use airfields. There's no reason to risk a carrier.

agree

 

[Genx87]

a fear of civil war really changes people minds

Amazing how their minds "changed" when an occupying military force invaded.

 

[JTsyo]

More local defense forces must have gotten into the local SWAT lockers:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/w...-masked-men-in-east-ukraine-to-russia.html?hp

Reddit got a hold of the full rez pictures. Seems NYT is playing games.

 

[Brainonska511]

Reddit got a hold of the full rez pictures. Seems NYT is playing games.

I wasn't referring to the people they were specifically pointing fingers at. Just the fact that the 'rebels' have a lot of professional equipment and seemingly professional soldiers, despite just being a rag-tag militia. The stories of soldiers identifying themselves as Russian and then "correcting" themselves....

 

[code65536]

I wasn't referring to the people they were specifically pointing fingers at. Just the fact that the 'rebels' have a lot of professional equipment and seemingly professional soldiers, despite just being a rag-tag militia. The stories of soldiers identifying themselves as Russian and then "correcting" themselves....

Yea, those pictures were never convincing to begin with. Ooh, bearded dude! The later pictures, showing equipment comparisons are much more damning. As well as the details like intercepted communications.

 

[senseamp]

lol + 1

That's an excellent point.


QFT


One freakin' HUGE difference - the USA never attempted to annex Iraq. We didn't attempt to install a puppet government, we didn't even take our costs from their oil income or insist they sell only to us. We allowed them to have free elections knowing that the resultant government would hate us pretty much as much as did the one we toppled.

"Free elections" with American troops present? Good one.

 

[zinfamous]

Estonia and much of Latvia were part of the Russian Empire from 1721 onwards after Sweden and its allies lost in the Great Northern War. Lithuania 'joined' later after the third partition of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in 1795 (iirc). Sure there was a German speaking elite but they were still under the rule of the tsars. Also it was 1940, not 1941, when the Baltics were annexed into the Soviet Union.

Ah, details.

well, they weren't annexed by the Soviets in 1940. They were invaded and occupied. The Germans then invaded in 1941 and occupied the territory until the Russians returned and pushed then back in ~1944. Russia could not have annexed them while Germany was in control. And, by all accounts, The German occupation was far more preferred than the Russian occupation.

 

[senseamp]

They wanted to be annexed so bad the party dedicated to joining Russia got 4% of the votes in the last election? Now just for the icing on the cake. That party's leader is now leading Crimea.

Sounds legit!

And new Ukrainian prime minister is appointed by 371/450 votes in Congress controlled by opposing party. Sounds legit!
I am sure it was completely unrelated to the lynch mob of "peaceful protesters" gathered outside with Molotov cocktails and guns.

 

[norseamd]

And new Ukrainian prime minister is appointed by 371/450 votes in Congress controlled by opposing party. Sounds legit! I am sure it was completely unrelated to the lynch mob of "peaceful protesters" gathered outside with Molotov cocktails and guns.

there are guns everywhere in ukraine so your point is not applicable

if euromaiden was nothing but thugs then why did the defense minister refuse to allow the military to be used to crush the euromaiden protests

 

[Genx87]

And new Ukrainian prime minister is appointed by 371/450 votes in Congress controlled by opposing party. Sounds legit!
I am sure it was completely unrelated to the lynch mob of "peaceful protesters" gathered outside with Molotov cocktails and guns.

You mean the elected members of their congress?

 

[senseamp]

You mean the elected members of their congress?

Who magically switched their political positions when surrounded by a mob.
Which is fine, but people of Crimea can change their political positions as a result of seeing those mobs too.
Also, US has refused to recognize results of referendum no matter how it was held, so this concern about the will of the people of Crimea is more than a bit phony. Not surprising, because even the pro-western Ukrainian media conducted polls in Crimea showed a huge support for leaving Ukraine and joining Russia.

Here's from 2011:
Link 1

Here's from after "occupation" :
Link2

TSN and 1+1 are pro-European Ukrainian channels.

Google translation:

Channel "1 +1" sociologists asked to put the Ukrainians from different regions of the question: "Do you consider Russia a friendly country?". In the west to this question 69% of the respondents answered in the negative. Russian ready to be friends with only every 4th resident of the region. In the center, north and positive emotions in Kiev to Russia retain 35% of respondents. But 61% is a friendly neighborhood is not considered. Data on the east and south radically opposed. Accordingly, 66% of maintaining friendship and 30% lack of sympathy for the Russian Federation. In Crimea, 88% of people call a friendly Russian, and only 8% with Russian friends do not want to.

So in the midst of being "occupied" by Russia, 88% of respondents to a pro-euro Ukrainian channel's poll call it a friendly country. I guess it's time to send in NATO and "liberate" them pronto.

 

[Genx87]

Who magically switched their political positions when surrounded by a mob.
Which is fine, but people of Crimea can change their political positions as a result of seeing those mobs too.
Also, US has refused to recognize results of referendum no matter how it was held, so this concern about the will of the people of Crimea is more than a bit phony. Not surprising, because even the pro-western Ukrainian media conducted polls in Crimea showed a huge support for leaving Ukraine and joining Russia.

Here's from 2011:
Link 1

Here's from after "occupation" :
Link2

TSN and 1+1 are pro-European Ukrainian channels.

Google translation:


So in the midst of being "occupied" by Russia, 88% of respondents to a pro-euro Ukrainian channel's poll call it a friendly country. I guess it's time to send in NATO and "liberate" them pronto.

Who is talking about sending in NATO to liberate them? Stop reading Russian state media.

Instead we will suffocate their fledgling economy and politically isolate them. Sucks being a 2nd rate country bullying your neighbors on a world stage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/w...egy-writes-off-putin.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=1

 

[senseamp]

Who is talking about sending in NATO to liberate them? Stop reading Russian state media.

Instead we will suffocate their fledgling economy and politically isolate them. Sucks being a 2nd rate country bullying your neighbors on a world stage.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/20/w...egy-writes-off-putin.html?hpw&rref=world&_r=1

So you don't actually care what the people of Crimea want, and now are switching the subject to what Obama wants.

 

[Genx87]

So you don't actually care what the people of Crimea want, and now are switching the subject to what Obama wants.

You switched the subject and babbled on about polls that are inconsequential to a referendum done under occupation. So I responded in kind. Or do you deny these economic and political tools being used on Russian will hurt their economy?

You clearly don't care what the people of Crimea want. If you did, you wouldn't blindly support an invasion by Russian forces and a sham election done under their watch.

Don't you get sick of Putin making you look like a fool over and over?

 

[senseamp]

You switched the subject and babbled on about polls that are inconsequential to a referendum done under occupation. So I responded in kind. Or do you deny these economic and political tools being used on Russian will hurt their economy?

You clearly don't care what the people of Crimea want. If you did, you wouldn't blindly support an invasion by Russian forces and a sham election done under their watch.

Don't you get sick of Putin making you look like a fool over and over?

You claim it was a sham referendum, even though it is an accurate expression of the will of the Crimean people, even as measured by pro-Western channel's polls.
But there would be no referendum at all if Russians weren't there to guarantee it. Instead, Ukrainians would be crushing any attempts to hold such a referendum, as they are doing in Eastern Ukraine, and US would be cheering them on, as they are doing now.
Also, were all the "elections" in Iraq and Afghanistan conducted while under US occupations "sham" as well? Or this is a new standard that just applies to Russia?

 

[cubby1223]

Who magically switched their political positions when surrounded by a mob.
Which is fine, but people of Crimea can change their political positions as a result of seeing those mobs too.
Also, US has refused to recognize results of referendum no matter how it was held, so this concern about the will of the people of Crimea is more than a bit phony. Not surprising, because even the pro-western Ukrainian media conducted polls in Crimea showed a huge support for leaving Ukraine and joining Russia.

Here's from 2011:
Link 1

Here's from after "occupation" :
Link2

TSN and 1+1 are pro-European Ukrainian channels.

Google translation:


So in the midst of being "occupied" by Russia, 88% of respondents to a pro-euro Ukrainian channel's poll call it a friendly country. I guess it's time to send in NATO and "liberate" them pronto.

Oh, I need to apologize to you. Last time we had a discussion I was under the impression you knew that Russia was in the wrong and just pointing out that we still shouldn't base our opinions on broad generalizations.

No, instead you are a hypocrite who has fallen for the Russian propaganda, that was my mistake for not initially recognizing it. You are wise to Question Everything. Because that's how smart people became smart!

Enjoy the life of a tool.

 

[senseamp]

Oh, I need to apologize to you. Last time we had a discussion I was under the impression you knew that Russia was in the wrong and just pointing out that we still shouldn't base our opinions on broad generalizations.

No, instead you are a hypocrite who has fallen for the Russian propaganda, that was my mistake for not initially recognizing it. You are wise to Question Everything. Because that's how smart people became smart!

Enjoy the life of a tool.

Nice personal attack. Doesn't refute anything I said. :thumbsup:

 

[cubby1223]

Nice personal attack. Doesn't refute anything I said. :thumbsup:

You are a tool who gets his news from RT, who you simultaneously blasted others for not Questioning Everything enough.

This war between the west and Russia is a figment of Russia's ruling classes imagination, fuel on to keep them in power.

I'm smart enough to know when arguing with an insignificant nobody like you will never produce further results.

Goodbye, hypocrite. I don't need to prove anything further to the onlookers of the thread. Those who are in lock-step with Russian propaganda will always side with you. Those not in lock-step with Russian propaganda will always side against you. Nothing anyone says or does here can change that.

 

[Genx87]

You claim it was a sham referendum, even though it is an accurate expression of the will of the Crimean people, even as measured by pro-Western channel's polls.
But there would be no referendum at all if Russians weren't there to guarantee it. Instead, Ukrainians would be crushing any attempts to hold such a referendum, as they are doing in Eastern Ukraine, and US would be cheering them on, as they are doing now.
Also, were all the "elections" in Iraq and Afghanistan conducted while under US occupations "sham" as well? Or this is a new standard that just applies to Russia?

Most of the world makes that claim as well. Is this where you trot out russian state media's list of "observers"? A collection of communists, nationalists, and paid anti-western fools?

But at least we are making progress. You have finally admitted the Russians were in Crimea over watching those polls.

Of course Ukraine will do what it can to preserve its border. What country wouldnt? Certainly Russia would as well. Chechnya wanted to leave. Russia responded with the army.

As for your last question. Is there really any debate about those elections in Afghanistan? Does anybody believe Karzai would had won on his own? But so what? Are you back to arguing two wrongs make a right?