Russia gets Crimea

[Atreus21]

Eski,

I will give you the same advice as I give to all neocons. If you are THAT upset about the Crimea, by all means strap on some guns, catch the nearest jet and show the Russians what you are made of.

Do NOT ask the rest of America to send their children to die for your necon paranoias.

Were you fighting with mujahadeen in 2003?

 

[Texashiker]

Nobody is calling for a military solution to this except Russia. Economic sanctions will hopefully be harsh and hurt the Russian economy enough they wont pull this again.

Since when do we have the right to impose sanctions on a sovereign nation?

All that is going to do is piss Putin off.

China is siding with Putin. There is no chance in hell sanctions are going to do anything.

 

[Jaskalas]

Nobody is calling for a military solution to this except Russia. Economic sanctions will hopefully be harsh and hurt the Russian economy enough they wont pull this again.

There's a vote for sanctions. Anyone else? Guess that's our only option.

You realize that unless China gets on-board that this could turn into a greater east VS west divide. Would rearrange economic interests, but certainly not harm them overall.

Asia could remain quite happy if it told the west to go f' off.

 

[Genx87]

Since when do we have the right to impose sanctions on a sovereign nation?

All that is going to do is piss Putin off.

China is siding with Putin. There is no chance in hell sanctions are going to do anything.

What do you mean since when? Since the beginning of time. Sanctions will cripple an already teetering economy. China, another economy ready for implosion and relies on exports. Talk about a pair of countries playing to each others weakness.

 

[Brainonska511]

China is siding with Putin. There is no chance in hell sanctions are going to do anything.

Hardly. China is staying off to the sidelines. They are afraid this whole incident would set a precedent for it's own oppressed territories breaking away.

 

[WelshBloke]

Of course the EU is going to be pissed. They wanted access to the economy of the Ukraine and Crimea.

The situation is not only about Crimea, and the Ukraine, it is also a vote against the EU.

But you know what, this is none of the EUs or United States business.

You were talking about the EU monitoring the elections, they aren't. And they aren't happy with them.

Since when do we have the right to impose sanctions on a sovereign nation?

Since pretty much forever. No country has to do business with another.

 

[Genx87]

There's a vote for sanctions. Anyone else? Guess that's all we have.

You realize that unless China gets on-board that this could turn into a greater east VS west divide. Would rearrange economic interests, but certainly not harm them overall.

Asia could remain quite happy if it told the west to go f' off.

I don't think China will get on that much. Why? Because if they cant export their economy goes bye bye. Then the peasants get restless. Russia has isolated themselves on this action.

 

[WelshBloke]

Well eskimo, you guys have your own very own Incorruptible now.

He's no where near as entertaining as Incorruptible at the moment, he may get there with a bit of effort so he might be one to watch.
He seems to have the same level of self awareness though.

 

[Jhhnn]

Tens of thousands of people died in the Russian invasion of Chechnya out of a population of only about 1 million. If you adjust the casualties for population size a far greater proportion of Chechens died than did Iraqis in that "bloodless" invasion.

So when the US invades an area and occupies it that's an 'armageddon'. When Russia invades and occupies an area, leading to a far greater slaughter among the residents of that territory that's A-OK. Not only that, but apparently Putin has the 'moral authority' to do this too!

This guy is impressively stupid.

Chechnya is rightfully regarded as civil war, not an invasion. They're often quite bloody & bitter.

One of the parties in the new coalition govt in Ukraine is regarded as proto-fascist, which seems accurate given their past rhetoric-

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20824693

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-control-its-far-right-ultranationalists.html

I would suggest that it's really impossible for us to tell what's going on in the minds of the people involved, or that we have any ability to control the outcome, other than to advocate peaceful resolution. When our so-called liberal media gets done putting the usual Neocon spin on it, the resemblance to reality is tenuous, at best. For Repubs, whatever Obama does will be painted as wrong, portraying him as a weakling or a war monger, depending.

The truth is that it's not really our business & our ability to act in a rational fashion is extremely limited. Another truth is that, after Yanukovych's ouster, violence seems limited to the ultra nationalists & the national assembly in Kiev, where they punch it out on a regular basis. Relations between Russian & Ukrainian troops in Crimea have been non-violent, & there's been no wave of arrests or imprisonment. I figure they can work it out on their own, particularly if we keep our nose out of it.

The govt in Kiev might as well cede Crimea, get it over with, see what they can do to tear down the looting & corruption that rules their country.

In Crimea, I'm pretty sure that the clown car assembly in Kiev scares the shit out of everybody, as it should, so the peace & relative security of joining Russia is probably more attractive than we might think.

 

[Olikan]

So it's now possible to vote yourself out of a country?

Let's just say that the mexican population in the U.S. becomes the majority(which could very well happen), the people decides to hold a vote to turn the entire U.S. to Mexico.

Mexicans crossed the border, in crimea the border crossed the people

 

[Texashiker]

China, another economy ready for implosion and relies on exports. Talk about a pair of countries playing to each others weakness.

China needs exports,
Russia needs to sell oil and gas,
China needs to buy oil and gas,

All sanctions are going to do is strength ties between two super powers.

Hardly. China is staying off to the sidelines. They are afraid this whole incident would set a precedent for it's own oppressed territories breaking away.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2014-03/17/content_17352214.htm

China calls for de-escalation of Crimea crisis

"The vote on the draft resolution by the Security Council at this juncture will only result in confrontation and further complicate the situation, which is not in conformity with the common interest of both the people of the Ukraine and those of the international community," said Liu.

Un resolutions and sanctions are only going to escalate the problem.

 

[fskimospy]

Eski,

I will give you the same advice as I give to all neocons. If you are THAT upset about the Crimea, by all means strap on some guns, catch the nearest jet and show the Russians what you are made of.

Do NOT ask the rest of America to send their children to die for your necon paranoias.

You're an idiot. I never once called for military intervention in Crimea, but unlike you I am at least principled enough to oppose invading other countries on trumped up pretenses even when the country invading isn't the US.

By the way as others said, if you were that upset by America's 'armageddon' why weren't you strapping on some guns and defending the citizens of the world? In fact, why weren't you in Chechnya before defending them from Russian aggression while we're at it?

 

[fskimospy]

Well eskimo, you guys have your own very own Incorruptible now.

Hard to tell. I'm still not entirely convinced that Incorruptible isn't just a bot. This guy is clearly a real person, but I guess if anything that makes his posts even more pathetic. Incorruptible could be an ingenious trolling device. I'm pretty sure this idiot means it.

 

[VRAMdemon]

LOL at the crazies in this thread...

I always wonder, when these "referendums" are conducted at the barrel of a gun and they don't even try to pretend that they are in any way legitimate. No legitimate referendum on a subject that is more controversial than "would you like your head cut off" gets 95% vote. None.

Why do they even bother pretending that there was a vote? With or without such a "referendum", and anyone inside Russia and outside knows that 95% can only be achieved by massive fraud. Since they are fixing up the result anyway, why not fix it as something more reasonable like 70%? Or even 60%? Don't they realize just how laughable a 95% result is?

 

[Genx87]

China needs exports,
Russia needs to sell oil and gas,
China needs to buy oil and gas,

All sanctions are going to do is strength ties between two super powers.

Strengthen what? Their hold each other as they spin down the economic toilet?
I don't think China will do much more than lip service myself. They dont want to take an economic hit because Putin wants to resurrect a failed empire.

 

[fskimospy]

Proof?

The European Commission is the executive branch of the EU, which has repeatedly condemned this invasion, occupation, and sham election as illegal.

Do you know what the EC and the EU are? You seem very confused.

 

[Texashiker]

The European Commission is the executive branch of the EU, which has repeatedly condemned this invasion, occupation, and sham election as illegal.

Considering the EU does not make laws for sovereign nations outside the EU, they have no right to declare anything "illegal".

Last I heard the Ukraine moved to join the EU, but has not official joined the EU as of yet.

 

[fskimospy]

Considering the EU does not make laws for sovereign nations outside the EU, they have no right to declare anything "illegal".

Two things: First, I have no idea what you're even trying to argue anymore. You made some insane/stupid statements about the position of the EC on the Crimea vote based on you being tricked by reading Russian state propaganda. All my statements about the EC are just refuting that propaganda.

Second, your appeal to state sovereignty is frankly hilarious considering you're doing it in order to support Russia's armed violation of Ukraine's sovereignty.

 

[Jaskalas]

Given the political, cultural, ethnic divide in Ukraine, would it not make sense to settle this by allowing the country to split into two?

Russia gets what it wants, people of eastern Ukraine get what they want, people of western Ukraine get to join the EU. Only thing they lose is dictatorial powers over the people east of them.

 

[BUnit1701]

Ironic, the US and EU declare the referendum illegal and refuse to send monitors, then use the fact there were no monitors to declare the vote was not free and open. No way they have an agenda...

 

[Genx87]

Given the political, cultural, ethnic divide in Ukraine, would it not make sense to settle this by allowing the country to split into two?

And let me guess. Your idea of having Ukrainians settling this is Russian troops invade half of Ukraine.

 

[Genx87]

Ironic, the US and EU declare the referendum illegal and refuse to send monitors, then use the fact there were no monitors to declare the vote was not free and open. No way they have an agenda...

They dont need monitors sent to know the vote was not open and free. There was an occupying army overseeing the vote for christs sake. Please tell me you understand the implications of that.

 

[VRAMdemon]

In Crimea, I'm pretty sure that the clown car assembly in Kiev scares the shit out of everybody, as it should, so the peace & relative security of joining Russia is probably more attractive than we might think.

The "clown car" assembly is the same parliament that was there before the revolution. This same clown car assembly is the reason for their restriant. One has to give tremendous credit to Ukraine. Ukraine absolutely has a casus belli against Russia and would be perfectly justified in going to war with them - indeed, they have been justified in going to war with Russia for weeks now.

Having part of the country conquered by another would be a slight on a nation's honor that could not be countenanced but the ensuring war would have been much, much worse. Ukraine, to its enormous credit, chose to accept that they couldn't do anything about this that would not result in a bloodbath. Russia tried to push Ukraine into shooting, like they did with Georgia, but the Ukrainians were too smart for it.

 

[fskimospy]

Given the political, cultural, ethnic divide in Ukraine, would it not make sense to settle this by allowing the country to split into two?

Russia gets what it wants, people of eastern Ukraine get what they want, people of western Ukraine get to join the EU. Only thing they lose is dictatorial powers over the people east of them.

I'm not sure: why would anyone possibly argue that the results of crimes against humanity should not be the justification for annexing new territory?

It does take a lot of balls to try and use the fact that you committed genocide in a region as an excuse to say "look, everyone left wants to be with us!".

 

[BUnit1701]

They dont need monitors sent to know the vote was not open and free. There was an occupying army overseeing the vote for christs sake. Please tell me you understand the implications of that.

Umm, well, I might if we had sent international observers to see what was happening...

Or perhaps you have some footage of the 5% who voted against being marched out and shot?