Russia gets Crimea

[VRAMdemon]

I find it interesting that i have called you warmonger three times in this thread and the last and you have yet to refute. For a minute lets forget about whores in the media , lets talk about moral prostitution, you who did not give a shit about UN resolutions 10 years ago come back now and talk about rule of law.

I know who's the emperor with the new clothes here

Lets get back to media lapdogs,

You believe assholes like david gregory , wolf blitzer, [lets not even get to fnc] who are epic scum bags who didnt say anything against the US war drum rolling . All they did was we are going to war and I am going to be embedded in some poor military guys unit. The whole rush to war was like a movie trailer every fucking night and you have the temerity to say the US media is "fair and balanced"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xObacZAPk8w

Warmongers!!...lol, where in this thread did Genx87 or anyone else advocate for war. And where in this thread did he "say" the US media is "fair and balanced"?.

The referendum was a sham, period!. If it's actually true that the majority of people in the Crimea want to break away and join the Russians, then all it would mean is another vote. This time without the Russians blockading Ukrainian military bases or ports, and without Russian troops on the streets of the major cities in the Crimea...stuff like that. So, it would just be a more above board validation of their actual desire to break away.

There really is not much the US can or would do to force the Russians to take a step back at this point. It's pretty much a done deal, slimy as this whole affair has been. All the US can do at this point is move forward...which, is to get the Euros to impose as harsh sanctions as they will stomach (translation: not very harsh, considering how hard sanctions would hurt the Europeans), and perhaps try and move the rest of the Ukraine more into the Western European sphere of influence, allow them to join NATO.

We mean ol' Americans should have known that not bruising Putin's ego was much more important than dealing with the very real concern countries like Estonia had about being reabsorbed into the Workers' Paradise. What do they know, having been part of that noble experiment for 50 or so years?

Alternatively, Putin could have shown his neighbors that he was actually interested in transforming Russia into a democracy. He chose not to, and that has nothing to do with us. Some of us are not fooled by Putin, but prefer to offer the countries in Eastern Europe an opportunity to look to The West without fear of reprisal from anti-democratic authoritarians like Putin.

​

 

[zinfamous]

The EU doesn't just go out and openly beg, much less invite countries to join them. Considering the great difficulty with which Serbia and Yugoslavia have tried to gain access, even if the EU standards can be met, it is silly to think that the EU looks at Ukraine as a golden laurel for their club.

that's just strange.

Talks and discussion are simply that.

 

[Lepton87]

I thought Johan Bäckman sounded rather nice(insane). Believing the Finnish started war with the Soviet Union in WWII. He also believed the Fins were going to ethnically cleanse Russians to the Urals. And adores Putin.

So Putin found the most brain-dead brown-nosed politician in each country.
He didn't even make an effort to make it look like a real panel instead he broke all conventions regarding the amount of stupidity you can cram into a small group. When you're having delusions of grandeur you feel like you are always one step ahead of the game. Sadly it really seems like his supporters will buy every lie he tells them, no matter how repulsive. He invited the least trustworthy people he could possibly find to his panel of observers and his lackeys, even the western one, are excited about the fair referendum he made.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
The EU and the Euro is a slow motion train wreck. What does the EU have to pull them out of recession? Not much.

What does Russia have? They have massive amounts of untapped natural resources. If Russia needs an economic boost just develop an oil field. Invite Exxon or KBR in to do the development, boom, thousands of new jobs created.

You paint far too rosy a picture of Russia's untapped potential.

Much of their reserves are untapped and they've had no success attempting to so do. It's in hard to reach places where extraction will be expensive.

Have a look:

"About 60 percent of existing oil reserves in Russia are of this category," Natural Resources and Ecology Minister Sergei Donskoi said at the meeting. Overall, Donskoi added, the country is the world leader in the potential amount of hard-to-reach hydrocarbons, which today are inaccessible for economic reasons.

One of the reasons for this is a lack of technology that could lower the cost of developing difficult to reach resources.

"We have tested many different technologies [for extracting hard-to-recover hydrocarbons] but so far have not found one that would be economically feasible," said Alexei Vashkevich, the head of geological exploration at Gazprom Neft.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/...ufficient-industry-executives-say/494046.html

Fern

 

[Pocatello]

Which part of Ukraine will Russia annex next? Probably the eastern part. How many more Eastern European countries will see Russian paratroopers? The next few years will be very interesting, indeed.

 

[WelshBloke]

In this thread, no.

But Ukraine was supposed to have applied to become part of the EU.

Eh? No. As far as I know the EU and Ukraine were discussing opening up trade with a view to having a free trade agreement before Russia shat the bed and invaded.

There is no discussion of Ukraine joining the EU at the moment.

 

[Genx87]

I find it interesting that i have called you warmonger three times in this thread and the last and you have yet to refute. For a minute lets forget about whores in the media , lets talk about moral prostitution, you who did not give a shit about UN resolutions 10 years ago come back now and talk about rule of law.

I know who's the emperor with the new clothes here

Lets get back to media lapdogs,

You believe assholes like david gregory , wolf blitzer, [lets not even get to fnc] who are epic scum bags who didnt say anything against the US war drum rolling . All they did was we are going to war and I am going to be embedded in some poor military guys unit. The whole rush to war was like a movie trailer every fucking night and you have the temerity to say the US media is "fair and balanced"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xObacZAPk8w

Warmonger? I am not on the side using a military force to get their way. And I see you are going with the two wrong make a right argument.

 

[Genx87]

All that information was contained in the links I gave you.

Do you not understand how to read? You asked how Russia's economy was doing during the financial crisis as if it was outperforming the EU. It did not.

As I also mentioned, btw, Russia's economy is now forecasted to return to recession. The EU economy is not growing well at all, but Russia's position now looks to be even worse. Interesting by the way that he predicts short to medium term growth for Russia's economy when now that's basically been thrown out the window.

Truth hurts, don't it

I have been following Mark for the past few weeks. His opinion on this invasion is pretty clear and the aftermath that Russia should expect. And it doesnt line up with Texashikers claim neither. Give him a read on more recent contributions. A 180 from anything TH believes.

 

[PingviN]

Russia has something the EU needs badly and that is natural gas.

Not true. Maybe 10% or so of EU's energy mix comes from Russian natural gas. 10% can be replaced, it's no disaster.

 

[Genx87]

So Putin found the most brain-dead brown-nosed politician in each country.
He didn't even make an effort to make it look like a real panel instead he broke all conventions regarding the amount of stupidity you can cram into a small group. When you're having delusions of grandeur you feel like you are always one step ahead of the game. Sadly it really seems like his supporters will buy every lie he tells them, no matter how repulsive. He invited the least trustworthy people he could possibly find to his panel of observers and his lackeys, even the western one, are excited about the fair referendum he made.

Did you look up the list Texashiker provided? Talk about a collection of communists, authoritarians, and Pro-Russian tools. Putin could had voted personally in the election for everybody in Crimea and that group would had said it was the most legitimate election in the history of the world.

 

[Lepton87]

Did you look up the list Texashiker provided? Talk about a collection of communists, authoritarians, and Pro-Russian tools. Putin could had voted personally in the election for everybody in Crimea and that group would had said it was the most legitimate election in the history of the world.

Birds of a feather flock together.

 

[fskimospy]

I have been following Mark for the past few weeks. His opinion on this invasion is pretty clear and the aftermath that Russia should expect. And it doesnt line up with Texashikers claim neither. Give him a read on more recent contributions. A 180 from anything TH believes.

Do you have any good links?

 

[Genx87]

Do you have any good links?

Here is a link to his page that lists articles.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/

I believe he analyzes Eastern European and more specifically Russian policy. Has some interesting insight into the demographic problem of eastern europe as well.

 

[Lepton87]

Here is a link to his page that lists articles.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/

I believe he analyzes Eastern European and more specifically Russian policy. Has some interesting insight into the demographic problem of eastern europe as well.

I don't buy his explanation about low number of births being responsible for the slow-down of Central and Eastern Europe economies. Why? Because we already had years when we had negative natural growth so it's nothing new. It's definitely a factor but it's not a new factor.

 

[TROLLERCAUST]

Another point that the parrots dont talk about now .. Before it was omg OSCE monitors are not allowed , now that crimea gave them permission to monitor elections a few days ago, they didnt go. Like I said in my post from a few days ago, all these OSCE monitors wanted to do then was stage a few photos and start propaganda about how the elctions are sham

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...onitor-illegal-crimean-referendum-339092.html

OSCE is not sending in _election_ observers because the OCSE does not recognise this referendum as legal. However they were sending in _military_ observers who were not let into Crimea but rather were shot at. Russia then invited pro-Russia people to "monitor" these elections, who are no part of OSCE. This has been all over the news, over here atleast...

I thought Johan Bäckman sounded rather nice(insane). Believing the Finnish started war with the Soviet Union in WWII. He also believed the Fins were going to ethnically cleanse Russians to the Urals. And adores Putin.

Johan Bäckman is a known troll in Finland. He works for the Russian government and is paid by the Russian government. Russia is waging an information war on its neighbours and Bäckman is a weapon used in that war. Whenever Finland does something that the Russians don't like, stories appear in Russian media how Finland is a bad place to live and it has been Bäckman giving "expert" opinion for the Russian media. Some examples of these made-up stories to make Finland look bad in Russian people's eyes are stories how Finland is a bad place for women and children to live in, how families in Finland are destroyed for some gay-"agenda", how Finland is racist, fascist or russophobe. There might be some friction in some trade talks for example and suddenly these "news stories" start circulating in Russian media, Bäckman acting as some Finnish expert while in reality he works for the Russian government. Other neighbours of Russia, like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine (no shit), Caucasus states, have had their share of Russian smear campaign of the 2000's. Russian aggression in the media seems to have increased every year.

One thing Russia has done with their aggression is to drive Finland more towards NATO. Finland is not a NATO-member. During the Cold War we couldn't join and there are still plenty of anti-NATO people around but I'm sure opinions are changing because of this new Russian imperialism. Some ideas are brought up in the media how we could also form a military alliance with Sweden, also not-Nato. Russia might see NATO expand closer to its borders in the coming years anyway. 1300 kms of more NATO-border for Russia. Russia fail.

I like lurking all kinds of American-, British-, international etc forums because I like the different viewpoints people around the world have but this thread made my head hurt so much I had to register. I live in the backwoods of Finland close to the Russian border and I've been worried about the situation in Russia for some years now.

What has been really sad to see are all the excuses made for Russian imperialism.

 

[Sulaco]

OSCE is not sending in _election_ observers because the OCSE does not recognise this referendum as legal. However they were sending in _military_ observers who were not let into Crimea but rather were shot at. Russia then invited pro-Russia people to "monitor" these elections, who are no part of OSCE. This has been all over the news, over here atleast...



Johan Bäckman is a known troll in Finland. He works for the Russian government and is paid by the Russian government. Russia is waging an information war on its neighbours and Bäckman is a weapon used in that war. Whenever Finland does something that the Russians don't like, stories appear in Russian media how Finland is a bad place to live and it has been Bäckman giving "expert" opinion for the Russian media. Some examples of these made-up stories to make Finland look bad in Russian people's eyes are stories how Finland is a bad place for women and children to live in, how families in Finland are destroyed for some gay-"agenda", how Finland is racist, fascist or russophobe. There might be some friction in some trade talks for example and suddenly these "news stories" start circulating in Russian media, Bäckman acting as some Finnish expert while in reality he works for the Russian government. Other neighbours of Russia, like Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Ukraine (no shit), Caucasus states, have had their share of Russian smear campaign of the 2000's. Russian aggression in the media seems to have increased every year.

One thing Russia has done with their aggression is to drive Finland more towards NATO. Finland is not a NATO-member. During the Cold War we couldn't join and there are still plenty of anti-NATO people around but I'm sure opinions are changing because of this new Russian imperialism. Some ideas are brought up in the media how we could also form a military alliance with Sweden, also not-Nato. Russia might see NATO expand closer to its borders in the coming years anyway. 1300 kms of more NATO-border for Russia. Russia fail.

I like lurking all kinds of American-, British-, international etc forums because I like the different viewpoints people around the world have but this thread made my head hurt so much I had to register. I live in the backwoods of Finland close to the Russian border and I've been worried about the situation in Russia for some years now.

What has been really sad to see are all the excuses made for Russian imperialism.

Good post. :thumbsup: Welcome to the forum.

 

[michal1980]

I wonder if joining nato will be worth anything. Just like the 'protection' treaty we have with the Ukraine right now...
If put to the test, will it really work?

 

[WelshBloke]

I wonder if joining nato will be worth anything. Just like the 'protection' treaty we have with the Ukraine right now...
If put to the test, will it really work?

I suppose theres an argument that the more members it has the more likely there is for a conflict to occur that doesn't involve other members.

I don't think that even Russia would like to test that out unless the situation was dire.

 

[WelshBloke]

Good post. :thumbsup: Welcome to the forum.

Indeed. Its always nice to see new people and new viewpoints here.

 

[postmortemIA]

...

Finland recognized Kosovo independence almost right away when it broke away... when will you do the same for Crimea?

 

[TROLLERCAUST]

Finland recognized Kosovo independence almost right away when it broke away... when will you do the same for Crimea?

Hopefully never.

 

[cubby1223]

Finland recognized Kosovo independence almost right away when it broke away... when will you do the same for Crimea?

Because... Russia Today told you that was the proper comeback to "gotcha" your opponents?

 

[kage69]

So Ukraine is mobilizing their army, and just created a 60,000 strong National Guard corps I heard.

Will this give Russia pause, or will it embolden them somehow, like a grab for more lands in the east of Ukraine?

I don't think the Russian military is too concerned about dealing with the Ukrainian army, but the possibility of the west stepping in to arm them probably gives them pause. They didn't enjoy our last round of gifts we gave the guys they were beating up on.

 

[Brainonska511]

I wonder if joining nato will be worth anything. Just like the 'protection' treaty we have with the Ukraine right now...
If put to the test, will it really work?

That's different. Our NATO alliances are military and clearly lay out our responsibilities. The Budapest Memorandum does not require us to act in a military fashion to maintain the territorial integrity of the Ukraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

And I doubt we'd let them into NATO at this point in time.

 

[TROLLERCAUST]

I wonder if joining nato will be worth anything. Just like the 'protection' treaty we have with the Ukraine right now...
If put to the test, will it really work?

I have a hard time believing that if all the Nordic and Baltic states were Nato-members, they would betray eachother in case of a war with Russia. History shows these are crucial times where we need to stick together against Russian imperialism.

What is happening now in Ukraine, happened in the Baltics in 1939-1940 except that there's no world war going on. The Soviet Union massed troops on the Baltics republics borders and the republics were forced to let in Soviet troops. In 1940 elections (obviously fraudulent) were held where the republics were annexed to the Soviet Union. Finland refused to comply with Soviet demands, a month later the Soviets invaded. In 1932 Finland and the Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact respecting each others territorial borders, 7 years later the Soviet Union broke that treaty. In 1994 Russia signed a treaty to respect Ukraines borders, 20 years later they broke it. 70 years ago Finns in Soviet propaganda were shown as fascist russophobes planning to attack the Soviet Union. In 2014 Russian propaganda tells the same lies about some imaginary fascist russophobes attacking Russian-speaking population in Crimea. Russian imperialism is a threat to peace in Europe.