Russia gets Crimea

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code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
But I think it's missing the bigger context of why Putin is acting like the biggest f*cking asshole in Europe.

No, the reason he's acting like an asshole is because he's an asshole who's interested in personal power and his sense of grandeur. Yes, his goal is to give NATO a black eye and get Ukraine down on her knees, but the reason he has those goals (while someone like Yeltsin didn't) is because he's an asshole.

putin played berrie like a fiddle. nato's credibility ruined without a shot fired, fuckin brilliant. berrrie got to be the most stupid asshole on the planet. well next to the progressives here.

You want Obama to be "strong" like Putin? Let's see if you'll still hold that sentiment when FOX News is shut down, Roger Ailes is thrown in jail as an enemy of the state, Limbaugh is found to have died from a "mysterious overdose", and evidence of illegal dealings by Boehner are conveniently unearthed. What is it with people and their fetish for having a strongman in power?
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
No, the reason he's acting like an asshole is because he's an asshole who's interested in personal power and his sense of grandeur. Yes, his goal is to give NATO a black eye and get Ukraine down on her knees, but the reason he has those goals (while someone like Yeltsin didn't) is because he's an asshole.

Yeltsin was a drunk. No sober Russian leader is going to allow NATO in Ukraine.
Putin is saying loud and clear, Russia is willing go to war over NATO in Ukraine, and he's giving a clear demonstration that he is not bluffing, and that yes, he is "asshole" enough to follow through on it. That's why he didn't stop with taking Crimea. He is sending a message, that even without Crimea, he is not going to allow Ukraine to join NATO.
And that's why he won't deescalate anything. Nothing is going to be off the table until NATO expansion is off the table.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
That is a good summary in terms of objective points. :thumbsup: But I think it's missing the bigger context of why Putin is acting like the biggest f*cking asshole in Europe. He is sending a message to NATO that further expansion is not going to be cost-free or risk-free, the stakes will be very high. And he's sending a message to Ukraine, you are a divided country, I can take Crimea, and put you on a brink of civil war and disintegration with just a few special forces. Don't push your luck.

You're describing a mad-man pretty darn accurately.

You're also missing the bigger context of why Putin and Russia is against NATO. This is still a superficial level of understanding. Why is Putin cheering on chaos, fighting, and ultimately deaths?

Nobody is threatening to invade Russian borders. This was triggered because of an agreement to start Ukraine down the path to becoming a part of the EU, which Russia bribed the then president of Ukraine to reject, as well as playing shenanigans with trade agreements with Ukraine to flex its influence.

What exactly did Russia fear would happen if that agreement went through? What exactly does Ukraine mean to Russia? And the answer cannot be the simplistic "pride", or "that's our land."

Why is it impossible to interact with Russia as normal, rational adults?

(yes, there is a reason why the "Russia is bad" cliche is a good starting point to understanding situations)
 
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code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
Yeltsin was a drunk. No sober Russian leader is going to allow NATO in Ukraine.
Putin is saying loud and clear, Russia is willing go to war over NATO in Ukraine, and he's giving a clear demonstration that he is not bluffing, and that yes, he is "asshole" enough to follow through on it. That's why he didn't stop with taking Crimea. He is sending a message, that even without Crimea, he is not going to allow Ukraine to join NATO.
And that's why he won't deescalate anything. Nothing is going to be off the table until NATO expansion is off the table.

First, that's an issue for Ukraine to decide.

NATO wasn't planning on expanding into Ukraine. (Also, EU != NATO.) NATO was starting to look ever more irrelevant, and now Putin's antics has given NATO a new mission and newfound support. It's caused Finland, a non-NATO country on Russia's border, to consider joining NATO. Hell, he's pushed Ukraine even further towards the West and quite possibly permanently closed the door on bringing Ukraine willingly back into the fold. So if Putin's desire was to limit NATO expansion, it sure as hell looks like it's going to backfire.

And why is Putin so afraid of Europe? Hm? It's not like Western Europe is planning yet another invasion of Russia. They're friendly, and they're peaceful. There has been a lot of progress in EU-Russia relations, like growing economic ties and even Russia's participation in Eurovision. So what if Ukraine signs an EU association agreement? How the hell does that threaten Russia? How the hell is that against Russia's interests? If anything, it would be good for Russia's economy if her neighbors were to modernize.

Well, let me tell you why Putin doesn't like the EU: It's because the EU is a threat to him. Not to Russia. But to him. Personally. Because the EU advocates for political freedom. For free speech. For the rule of law and anti-corruption. That is what's so appealing to the Ukrainians. They're fed up with their country having languished for two decades while former Warsaw Pact countries that embraced the West like Poland or the Czech Republic are becoming increasingly prosperous. They are fed up with the rampant corruption and the lack of rule of law that Russia represents (and before Crimea becomes too happy about being a part of Russia, maybe they should look at South Ossetia, where well over half of the resources that Moscow poured into it after the Georgia conflict was simply wasted or lost to corruption and where things are pretty much as they were before--that is to say, bad).

Ukrainians have a lot of common history, culture, and ancestry with Russians, so it's not like they hate the Russian people or anything like that--they want out of the Moscow orbit because of what Moscow represents politically. You can bet your ass that if Russia wasn't ruled by a megalomaniac Putin or by a drunk Yeltsin but was instead ruled by someone who's actually fair and competent, Ukraine would not be so eager to distance herself.

The problem, ultimately, is Putin. He has delusions of grandeur. He wants power. If he was truly acting in Russia's interests, he'd accept the international community's invitation to participate. But he's not. He's acting against Russia's interests in order to preserve his own power. He's rekindling old Cold War conflicts not because the EU or NATO somehow screwed Russia, but because it's a convenient way to solidify his power base and to redirect malcontent. In short, he's behaving no differently than the Kims of North Korea. I'm sure you'll agree that whatever the North Korean leader does is not in the interest of NK or her people, but purely in the interest of sustaining their hold on power. And that, to a much lesser extreme, is Putin.
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
First, that's an issue for Ukraine to decide.

NATO wasn't planning on expanding into Ukraine. (Also, EU != NATO.) NATO was starting to look ever more irrelevant, and now Putin's antics has given NATO a new mission and newfound support. It's caused Finland, a non-NATO country on Russia's border, to consider joining NATO. Hell, he's pushed Ukraine even further towards the West and quite possibly permanently closed the door on bringing Ukraine willingly back into the fold. So if Putin's desire was to limit NATO expansion, it sure as hell looks like it's going to backfire.

And why is Putin so afraid of Europe? Hm? It's not like Western Europe is planning yet another invasion of Russia. They're friendly, and they're peaceful. There has been a lot of progress in EU-Russia relations, like growing economic ties and even Russia's participation in Eurovision. So what if Ukraine signs an EU association agreement? How the hell does that threaten Russia? How the hell is that against Russia's interests? If anything, it would be good for Russia's economy if her neighbors were to modernize.

Well, let me tell you why Putin doesn't like the EU: It's because the EU is a threat to him. Not to Russia. But to him. Personally. Because the EU advocates for political freedom. For free speech. For the rule of law and anti-corruption. That is what's so appealing to the Ukrainians. They're fed up with their country having languished for two decades while former Warsaw Pact countries that embraced the West like Poland or the Czech Republic are becoming increasingly prosperous. They are fed up with the rampant corruption and the lack of rule of law that Russia represents (and before Crimea becomes too happy about being a part of Russia, maybe they should look at South Ossetia, where well over half of the resources that Moscow poured into it after the Georgia conflict was simply wasted or lost to corruption and where things are pretty much as they were before--that is to say, bad).

Ukrainians have a lot of common history, culture, and ancestry with Russians, so it's not like they hate the Russian people or anything like that--they want out of the Moscow orbit because of what Moscow represents politically. You can bet your ass that if Russia wasn't ruled by a megalomaniac Putin or by a drunk Yeltsin but was instead ruled by someone who's actually fair and competent, Ukraine would not be so eager to distance herself.

The problem, ultimately, is Putin. He has delusions of grandeur. He wants power. If he was truly acting in Russia's interests, he'd accept the international community's invitation to participate. But he's not. He's acting against Russia's interests in order to preserve his own power. He's rekindling old Cold War conflicts not because the EU or NATO somehow screwed Russia, but because it's a convenient way to solidify his power base and to redirect malcontent. In short, he's behaving no differently than the Kims of North Korea. I'm sure you'll agree that whatever the North Korean leader does is not in the interest of NK or her people, but purely in the interest of sustaining their hold on power. And that, to a much lesser extreme, is Putin.

NATO and the "friendly" "peaceful" Europeans bombed Serbia, including deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure with cluster bombs. Russia is not going to take its chances with a foreign military alliance on its doorstep.
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
NATO and the "friendly" "peaceful" Europeans bombed Serbia, including deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure with cluster bombs. Russia is not going to take its chances with a foreign military alliance on its doorstep.

Civilian infrastructure not used by the military was not targeted. Not to mention the ethnic cleansing that prompted this campaign and the fact that Serbia was so damned intransigent that it took a campaign like that to get them to withdraw their troops. Are you suggesting that West should've just stood by and did nothing while genocide raged on?

And don't deflect: what happened during the NATO (not EU; remember, it's EU association that was at stake, not NATO membership) air campaign in Serbia doesn't change the fact that Putin is protecting Putin at the expense of Russia.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
First, that's an issue for Ukraine to decide.

NATO wasn't planning on expanding into Ukraine. (Also, EU != NATO.) NATO was starting to look ever more irrelevant, and now Putin's antics has given NATO a new mission and newfound support. It's caused Finland, a non-NATO country on Russia's border, to consider joining NATO. Hell, he's pushed Ukraine even further towards the West and quite possibly permanently closed the door on bringing Ukraine willingly back into the fold. So if Putin's desire was to limit NATO expansion, it sure as hell looks like it's going to backfire.

And why is Putin so afraid of Europe? Hm? It's not like Western Europe is planning yet another invasion of Russia. They're friendly, and they're peaceful. There has been a lot of progress in EU-Russia relations, like growing economic ties and even Russia's participation in Eurovision. So what if Ukraine signs an EU association agreement? How the hell does that threaten Russia? How the hell is that against Russia's interests? If anything, it would be good for Russia's economy if her neighbors were to modernize.

Well, let me tell you why Putin doesn't like the EU: It's because the EU is a threat to him. Not to Russia. But to him. Personally. Because the EU advocates for political freedom. For free speech. For the rule of law and anti-corruption. That is what's so appealing to the Ukrainians. They're fed up with their country having languished for two decades while former Warsaw Pact countries that embraced the West like Poland or the Czech Republic are becoming increasingly prosperous. They are fed up with the rampant corruption and the lack of rule of law that Russia represents (and before Crimea becomes too happy about being a part of Russia, maybe they should look at South Ossetia, where well over half of the resources that Moscow poured into it after the Georgia conflict was simply wasted or lost to corruption and where things are pretty much as they were before--that is to say, bad).

Ukrainians have a lot of common history, culture, and ancestry with Russians, so it's not like they hate the Russian people or anything like that--they want out of the Moscow orbit because of what Moscow represents politically. You can bet your ass that if Russia wasn't ruled by a megalomaniac Putin or by a drunk Yeltsin but was instead ruled by someone who's actually fair and competent, Ukraine would not be so eager to distance herself.

The problem, ultimately, is Putin. He has delusions of grandeur. He wants power. If he was truly acting in Russia's interests, he'd accept the international community's invitation to participate. But he's not. He's acting against Russia's interests in order to preserve his own power. He's rekindling old Cold War conflicts not because the EU or NATO somehow screwed Russia, but because it's a convenient way to solidify his power base and to redirect malcontent. In short, he's behaving no differently than the Kims of North Korea. I'm sure you'll agree that whatever the North Korean leader does is not in the interest of NK or her people, but purely in the interest of sustaining their hold on power. And that, to a much lesser extreme, is Putin.

Nicely put. Thanks for making the effort. You have far more patience than I do.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
NATO and the "friendly" "peaceful" Europeans bombed Serbia, including deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure with cluster bombs. Russia is not going to take its chances with a foreign military alliance on its doorstep.

code65536 presented a well-thought out argument that digs deeper than the superficial layer of understanding you continue to live in.

Nobody is threatening to attack Russia's borders.

And, NATO is already on Russia's borders. And there has been no conflict. There has been no attack on Russia. And, Ukraine was preparing to join the EU, very different from NATO. Once again your argument falls completely apart.

Christ you are such a fucking waste of time. You are either (A) stupid, or (B) a troll posting for your own amusement.
 
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TROLLERCAUST

Member
Mar 17, 2014
182
0
0
Frankly, I don't give a damn about the past injustices done to the Tatars. Populations have migrated and/or been displaced through all of human history. Crimea is a region whose populations has shifted a number of times through history. It's foolish to try to chase this through time. Should we go further back in time and just hand Crimea back to the Greeks? Should we move the Turks out of Turkey and back to Central Asia where they came from? Should we move the English out of England since they were originally invaders from what is now Germany and return England to its "original" inhabitants who long ago had fled to Scotland and Wales?

It's asinine to use the Tatars as the central point of the Crimean question. Isn't it enough to just point to Putin's outright lies and thuggery and the fact that he's currently the biggest f*cking asshole in Europe?

People point to Crimean Tatars because of Putin's lies. Putin has said Crimea has always been Russian lands and is now reunited with Russia. The only reason it became Russian is because the Crimean Tatar population was forcibly removed and put into slavery where almost half of the population died in a few years under communist terror. Communism and the USSR were built on slavery but that's another topic. Worker's paradise...

Rant:

The Russian Empire started russification programs towards the end of the 19th century. The USSR continued on this. It was a form of ethnic cleansing. In some places the Russians rose to a majority like in Kazakhstan. Ukrainians, Kazakhs, other -stanis were killed in the millions in famines and replaced by Russian settlers. Ukrainians and Belarusians were also used to slavicize some regions. Whole ethnic groups were transferred in cattle trains around the USSR to destroy them and make Russian the dominant ethnicity in these conquered areas. If the USSR were still alive places like Latvia could be majority Russian. Does modern Russia have the right to call these lands Russian? Do they have a right to interfere in their internal politics because there is now a sizable Russian minority as a result of decades of red terror? Does Russia have the right to call Crimea Russian? They don't. Modern Russia has never properly asked for forgiviness of their Soviet crimes like Germany did with their period of nazism. Instead Russians try to deny historical facts and glorify murderers like Stalin. Then they go claim lands taken by brute force and genocide "Russian". It's disgusting.

If we go on the road to "correct" border mistakes in Europe, it's an endless path. There's no stop to it. Bad blood between nations in Europe go for centuries or even millenia. For example Finns and Russians have been at war for the last thousand years with occasional periods of peace. The divide between our two cultures runs deep in history. We have unresolved border disputes but we don't about trying to "reunite" those lands stolen from us. Politics like this what Russia is now doing are part of the reasons for WW1 and WW2. The world wars destroyed Europe twice, tens of millions died and entire generations were scarred psychologically which can still be seen in today's generations. Nothing good comes out of this what Russia is doing, only more war, destruction and hatred between peoples. History tells us so but I guess we'll never learn.
 

Broheim

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2011
4,592
2
81
NATO and the "friendly" "peaceful" Europeans bombed Serbia, including deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure with cluster bombs. Russia is not going to take its chances with a foreign military alliance on its doorstep.

yeah those poor Serbs, why couldn't the evil Europeans just let them commit genocide in peace?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
First, that's an issue for Ukraine to decide.

NATO wasn't planning on expanding into Ukraine. (Also, EU != NATO.) NATO was starting to look ever more irrelevant, and now Putin's antics has given NATO a new mission and newfound support. It's caused Finland, a non-NATO country on Russia's border, to consider joining NATO. Hell, he's pushed Ukraine even further towards the West and quite possibly permanently closed the door on bringing Ukraine willingly back into the fold. So if Putin's desire was to limit NATO expansion, it sure as hell looks like it's going to backfire.

And why is Putin so afraid of Europe? Hm? It's not like Western Europe is planning yet another invasion of Russia. They're friendly, and they're peaceful. There has been a lot of progress in EU-Russia relations, like growing economic ties and even Russia's participation in Eurovision. So what if Ukraine signs an EU association agreement? How the hell does that threaten Russia? How the hell is that against Russia's interests? If anything, it would be good for Russia's economy if her neighbors were to modernize.

Well, let me tell you why Putin doesn't like the EU: It's because the EU is a threat to him. Not to Russia. But to him. Personally. Because the EU advocates for political freedom. For free speech. For the rule of law and anti-corruption. That is what's so appealing to the Ukrainians. They're fed up with their country having languished for two decades while former Warsaw Pact countries that embraced the West like Poland or the Czech Republic are becoming increasingly prosperous. They are fed up with the rampant corruption and the lack of rule of law that Russia represents (and before Crimea becomes too happy about being a part of Russia, maybe they should look at South Ossetia, where well over half of the resources that Moscow poured into it after the Georgia conflict was simply wasted or lost to corruption and where things are pretty much as they were before--that is to say, bad).

Ukrainians have a lot of common history, culture, and ancestry with Russians, so it's not like they hate the Russian people or anything like that--they want out of the Moscow orbit because of what Moscow represents politically. You can bet your ass that if Russia wasn't ruled by a megalomaniac Putin or by a drunk Yeltsin but was instead ruled by someone who's actually fair and competent, Ukraine would not be so eager to distance herself.

The problem, ultimately, is Putin. He has delusions of grandeur. He wants power. If he was truly acting in Russia's interests, he'd accept the international community's invitation to participate. But he's not. He's acting against Russia's interests in order to preserve his own power. He's rekindling old Cold War conflicts not because the EU or NATO somehow screwed Russia, but because it's a convenient way to solidify his power base and to redirect malcontent. In short, he's behaving no differently than the Kims of North Korea. I'm sure you'll agree that whatever the North Korean leader does is not in the interest of NK or her people, but purely in the interest of sustaining their hold on power. And that, to a much lesser extreme, is Putin.
Well said, sir. I think though that this isn't so much a threat to Putin personally as to his aspirations of rebuilding the USSR as the new Russian Empire. Putin was sitting in the catbird seat with regards to Europe, as he had them nicely dependent on Russian energy. Conversely he's been trying to regain Ukraine for at least a decade. The overthrow of his picked man precipitated this not because he is afraid for himself or for Russia if the Ukraine joined the EU or even NATO; he is afraid for his dream. Russia alone does not have the muscle to be a superpower. Nukes alone cannot provide that status unless we and NATO dismantle ours, for nukes are such terrible weapons that even Putin dare not use them offensively for political advantage. Only if Russia manages to subjugate its former USSR vassal states can Putin once again claim superpower status, and Ukraine must be the first claimed, else it all falls apart.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
The U.S. is sending 600 troops to Poland and the Baltics in response to all this as well as part of exercises. Anyone sense an election ploy to get votes for Dems in November? I'll be happy if it works considering I'm an independent liberal. But that's why I'm an independent to occasionally observe ulterior motives on both sides.

http://www.stripes.com/vicenza-based-paratroops-deploying-to-poland-baltics-1.279295

I see this as a tit for tat move against Putin. Making it clear if he drives to Poland expect the next invasion to smack his 1980s styled army around a bit.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
putin played berrie like a fiddle. nato's credibility ruined without a shot fired, fuckin brilliant. berrrie got to be the most stupid asshole on the planet. well next to the progressives here.

How is NATO's credibility ruined?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
NATO and the "friendly" "peaceful" Europeans bombed Serbia, including deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure with cluster bombs. Russia is not going to take its chances with a foreign military alliance on its doorstep.

In response to ethnic cleansing. Are you suggesting Russia is going to ethnically cleanse areas? If they aren't then why are you bringing up Serbia?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
In response to ethnic cleansing. Are you suggesting Russia is going to ethnically cleanse areas? If they aren't then why are you bringing up Serbia?

Because the claim that Europe is peaceful and friendly is not truthful.
They bombed electric plants, water treatment facilities, schools, and hospitals with cluster bombs. All civilian targets. Thousands of civilians were killed. European NATO members also supported US invasion of Iraq under false pretenses.

Russia is not going to allow an anti-Russian foreign military alliance in Ukraine. They don't have oceans to protect them, so they will maintain a buffer between themselves and potential threats.
You don't have to agree with it, but forcing the issue will lead to war. They are making it abundantly clear, if it's not getting through, then we are unfortunately going to have a real war in Ukraine, which will probably split the country in half. Maybe some abridged version of Western Ukraine will make it to NATO. Maybe.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Sounds like a paradise over there. Senseamp must be excited about this development.

I am unhappy about this development, and also about the new law on bloggers. Just because I understand Russia's actions in Ukraine from strategic point of view, doesn't mean I like what's going on inside the country. I don't like what's going on in Eastern Ukraine either, but I understand that Russia will keep doing what it's doing until a neutrality agreement is reached for Ukraine to keep NATO out forever.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
I am unhappy about this development, and also about the new law on bloggers. Just because I understand Russia's actions in Ukraine from strategic point of view, doesn't mean I like what's going on inside the country. I don't like what's going on in Eastern Ukraine either, but I understand that Russia will keep doing what it's doing until a neutrality agreement is reached for Ukraine to keep NATO out forever.

Right, lets sign more agreements with russia. Because we all know how well they honor them.
 

cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
81
so how much are you willing to give Russia to avoid war? how far can they expand before you say they went to far?

Probably wants to duplicate Chamberlin.
Draw the lines as of 1945. Worked well from his viewpoint for 40 years
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
Because the claim that Europe is peaceful and friendly is not truthful.
They bombed electric plants, water treatment facilities, schools, and hospitals with cluster bombs. All civilian targets. Thousands of civilians were killed. European NATO members also supported US invasion of Iraq under false pretenses.

Russia is not going to allow an anti-Russian foreign military alliance in Ukraine. They don't have oceans to protect them, so they will maintain a buffer between themselves and potential threats.
You don't have to agree with it, but forcing the issue will lead to war. They are making it abundantly clear, if it's not getting through, then we are unfortunately going to have a real war in Ukraine, which will probably split the country in half. Maybe some abridged version of Western Ukraine will make it to NATO. Maybe.

Funny, I don't see any of the countries around Russia desperately seeking to join with Russia to protect them from Europe.

Any war of that sort guarantees what remains of Ukraine joins NATO, along with the expansion of NATO into an encircling alliance around Russia. Every country that's bordering such an aggressive expansionist power will be running to join the west ASAP. The west is already shifting back to a policy of containment and isolation for Russia and Europe is already planning on reducing Russia's ability to threaten them with their natural gas supplies.

It's hard to see any good long term outcome for Russia out of their multiple illegal invasions. Putin is indeed protecting himself at a severe long term cost to his country. Par for the course for Russia though I guess.
 

OBLAMA2009

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2008
6,574
3
0
Probably wants to duplicate Chamberlin.
Draw the lines as of 1945. Worked well from his viewpoint for 40 years

when everyone has nuclear weapons and the u.s. has been invading countries all over the planet, it isnt the same situation as pre ww2
 
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