Victorian Gray
Lifer
- Nov 25, 2013
- 32,083
- 11,718
- 136
If I were President I wouldn't fear escalation. I'd say you back out now or it's nuke time. :twisted:
Bloody good thing that you're not President then.
If I were President I wouldn't fear escalation. I'd say you back out now or it's nuke time. :twisted:
As an interesting thought exercise, what if:
american missiles + bombs (from stealth bombers or whatever your preferred method of delivery) hit numerous ..."pro-russian" positions
russia protests
America says "well, they aren't Russian, right? Should be fine?"
what happens then?
Question is, is Putin invading east Ukraine as a training exercise for taking all of Ukraine, or taking all of Ukraine as a training exercise for taking Poland, or taking Ukraine and Poland as a training exercise for taking all of Europe?I will say one thing about Putler: when it comes to lying, he has balls.
Comparing Ukraine's actions to that of Nazi Germany:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28985715
(Wait, what?! Who's the one invading countries on the manufacturered pretext of protecting your ethnic ilk?)
Russian soldiers died on "training exercises", apparently. Must be one hell of an accident-prone boot camp. Wait, I thought you said that these people were on vacation?
http://news.yahoo.com/army-wives-urge-russia-come-clean-soldiers-ukraine-185525694.html
And, of course, more blaming of Ukraine. How dare Ukraine defend itself instead of bending over and graciously accepting subjugation!
http://news.yahoo.com/putin-says-russia-ready-respond-aggression-123956691.html
For Putler to use such grotesquely bald-faced lies in this day and age is just mind-boggling.
That's in effect the same thing, i.e. he cares because it helps him with someone else. Absolutely no one believes Putin cares just because he cares.That's one possible explanation (he "cares").
Another is providing plausible deniability for for the consumption of others who may be reluctant to act. Such plausible deniability gives the reluctant person cover for his/her reluctance. I've seen this tactic used before; it can be very effective.
Fern
Mo' debinitely.LOL! Hey! Peace through strength! I would at least put the missile defense shield back in Poland.
LOL! Hey! Peace through strength! I would at least put the missile defense shield back in Poland.
You mean the Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System which is scheduled to be deployed by 2018?
They're back...The report came a day after the rebels rejected a peace deal and said they were going on a multi-prong offensive against the government in Kiev to vastly increase their territory.
US condemnsRussia blocked a Western-backed U.N. Security Council statement Saturday that would have condemned indiscriminate shelling in Ukraine's southeastern city of Mariupol that killed about 30 civilians and injured more than 90.
I join my European counterparts in condemning in the strongest terms today's horrific assault by Russia-backed separatists on civilian neighborhoods, Kerry said.
Oh, lordy! More sanctions. That'll surely stop them.
There are no good alternatives and oil prices plus sanctions have run their economy into the shitter. Cut them off form SWIFT next and wait for the credit agencies to rate their gov bonds as junk.
Yes, but that won't really stop the 'rebels', now will it?
Plus, if Russia's economy really tanks, what makes you think that won't just make them even more aggressive?
What are the alternatives? I don't see any good ones.
That's the problem right there. Sometimes there are no good decisions, only necessary ones.
But you want 'good' actions? How about some actual, proper sanctions? Not a slap-in-the-wrist weak pathetic sanctions. I mean sanctions worthy of the name 'sanction'. Utterly crippling sanctions.
How about seizing assets in the West from Russian oligarchs? That ought to settle the issue quickly. Too bad no one has the cojones for that.
You shouldn't try to appease bullies (or madmen) nor should you try to reason with them. Just ask Neville Chamberlain.
sanctions need everyone involved to be on the same page. Unfortunately Europe is too dependent on Russian gas and won't follow the US in sanctioning Gazprom. Especially in winter where it needs the gas for its citizens to stay warm.
Ukraine Rebels Indiscriminately Bomb City
New Offensive Begins
They're back...
I know that I want a NATO military build up to counter a direct Russian invasion. But under the guise of rebels, of Ukrainian-Russians attacking Ukraine, that makes it tougher to directly call for intervention.
How far do we let this go without a military response? Does Russia get to claim the eastern, ethnic-Russian territory... or do they get to go all the way to Kiev?
At some point the Russian land grab needs to be stopped.
It's friggen Russia and you want to get into a shooting war with them? They would win by virtue of bankrupting us, especially since we would be in their backyard.
Russia knows this very well, why do you think they are blatantly doing what they are?
It's friggen Russia and you want to get into a shooting war with them?
Europe shares this "backyard".They would win by virtue of bankrupting us, especially since we would be in their backyard.
On December 5, 1994 the leaders of Ukraine, Russia, Britain and the United States signed a memorandum to provide Ukraine with security assurances in connection with its accession to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state.
Why would you play your trump cards early in any confrontation? The US/EU can easily ratchet up the sanctions (and have been) in politically palatable ways while causing increasing distress to the Russian economy. As long as oil prices remain low (and they are forecast to for some time) the damage is compounded and accelerated. Every new provocation on the part of Russia in Ukraine just lets out more rope for them to hang themselves. The ruble is down 50% and the gov is burning through it's cash reserves to shore up companies that can't refinance debt since they've been locked out of the international markets. A river of money is pouring out of the country to anywhere it can get to.
I'm not sure what the legal basis for seizing the assets of private foreign citizens would be and even if we wanted to do so I'm fairly sure at least an act of congress would be required to execute such a policy. I am also dubious on what real effect it would have on Putin's policies.
I don't see appeasement on the part of Europe or the US. I see measured economic and political counters to an irrational belligerence.
I want Russia to know we are prepared to act - so they stop their invasion short and act with restraint.
I want a military defense to occur if Russia moves past the ethnic Russian territory in Ukraine.
I would see the West honor our pact and act in the defense of Kiev.
Europe shares this "backyard".
NATO is acting absent in the face of Russian invasion. As if the only military force on the European continent is Russia. If we are folly and maintain that this is true, then the rest of eastern Europe has a lot to worry about and can no longer count on us as Ally.
In fact, if we break our pact to defend Ukraine then no one should ever count on Western allies.
Do we even have the type of weapons Ukraine needs? Maybe Poland does...