Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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I always wondered why Russia tried to land probes on Mars 12 times and crashed on the surface every single time, while NASA did it in the 1960's with Viking, then later landed 5 heavy rovers. Now I know. Because Russia's tech sucks. It's a pattern.

Just maybe...it's possible...that R&D is done better without fear of death to you or your family if you fail. And that whole kleptocracy thing...that's a different topic.

But generally, you may get better technical advancement if your research teams weren't literally scared for their lives.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Just maybe...it's possible...that R&D is done better without fear of death to you or your family if you fail. And that whole kleptocracy thing...that's a different topic.

But generally, you may get better technical advancement if your research teams weren't literally scared for their lives.

Yup, could be. If so, their fear became a self-fulfilling prophecy as they failed a ton of times.

Correction: while Russia has crashed a bunch of times, they did land one there in 1971, though due to equipment failure it gathered almost no data.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Just maybe...it's possible...that R&D is done better without fear of death to you or your family if you fail. And that whole kleptocracy thing...that's a different topic.

But generally, you may get better technical advancement if your research teams weren't literally scared for their lives.
I think that’s part of it but also we just have way, way more money and resources than they do.

One thing I read (wish I could remember examples) is that Russian tech is innovative in at least one respect - sometimes they are able to make functional things almost impossibly cheaply. Then again if you have no money I guess making things cheaply would be a major focus.
 
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vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
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I think that’s part of it but also we just have way, way more money and resources than they do.

One thing I read (wish I could remember examples) is that Russian tech is innovative in at least one respect - sometimes they are able to make functional things almost impossibly cheaply. Then again if you have no money I guess making things cheaply would be a major focus.

Also very fair. Being rich as fuck and dumping billions into R&D also provides some pretty good results when you combine it with teams that are operating in a conductive environment for success.
 
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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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Yes, yes . . . yes it is.

And I was one of those who also thought otherwise. What really surprises me is that Russia is not dominating, or at least doing more damage, in the cyber warfare realm. I actually thought they were masters of it.

Like how the Cubans eclipsed their Russian teachers in spycraft, I've always felt the Chinese did the same with all things cyber. Far larger and much more organized anyway.

Russians outsource heavily to private firms and criminal orgs for cyber. Back in the Trump days we gave warnings combined with scary amounts of sensitive personal data to a number of Russians trying to screw with us and NATO. It had the intended effect. Later when Putin was throwing one of his earlier tantrums over sanctions last April '22, Biden had the NSA, Justice and others do some proactive sabotage and blocking I heard. Russians had a few successes, but their effort was largely nullified IIRC. I think they've been limping ever since, or I hope so at least.
 
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JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
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Also very fair. Being rich as fuck and dumping billions into R&D also provides some pretty good results when you combine it teams that are operating in a conductive environment for success.
There's also the brain drain factor. The USSR was a source and the US was a sink. Attracting talented people from around the world allows you to use that money to a greater effect. Now with Russia, they've scared away a portion of their educated youngsters. While the oil rich countries in the ME prepare for a future with lower oil income, Russia seems to be happy to go into decline.
 

you2

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Apr 2, 2002
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There's also the brain drain factor. The USSR was a source and the US was a sink. Attracting talented people from around the world allows you to use that money to a greater effect. Now with Russia, they've scared away a portion of their educated youngsters. While the oil rich countries in the ME prepare for a future with lower oil income, Russia seems to be happy to go into decline.
This! This has been Russia problem; they have frequent period of purge where even stating certain words like 'war' can cause you to be imprisoned. In the US we worry about FUD and rumours spreading; in Russia they worry about speaking the truth. This causes a fair amount of the talent to flee; be imprisoned or sent to the front lines.... anyway even if Russia eventually wins the Ukraine war Putin has destroyed 30 years of modernization at a time when 1 year of falling behind can be significant. Worse Putin has exposed just how poorly trained his army is and how shoddy and ill designed their most advance equipment have been.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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There's also the brain drain factor. The USSR was a source and the US was a sink. Attracting talented people from around the world allows you to use that money to a greater effect. Now with Russia, they've scared away a portion of their educated youngsters. While the oil rich countries in the ME prepare for a future with lower oil income, Russia seems to be happy to go into decline.
Yes - different subject but this is why I've never understood why we have such harsh restrictions on high skill immigration. America's superpower is all the best and brightest want to come here - we should be happy to steal all the smartest people!
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,043
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Russian soldier gestures at Ukrainian drone, indicating a wish to surrender.

Drone returns to soldier with instructions.

Soldier flees down a trench while being shot by his own men, but supposedly manages to survive and enter Ukrainian captivity.



Following the rules for people surrendering, rather than torturing and murdering them. Extending protection and care even to animals caught in the war zone, rather than attacking or kidnapping civilians. And then there is the fighting well above their weight. The difference between Ukrainians and Russians is stark.

Good job guys.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,613
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And the opposite phenomenon happens with Russian weapons where Russia talks up their new 'invincible' weapons to try and juice sales and national prestige despite them being pieces of shit. (see - T14) You end up with a situation where the US downplays our capabilities and Russia pumps theirs up and people get the ludicrous impression the two militaries are at least somewhat comparable.

I think this war has showed the gap between NATO (really, the US) and everyone else is much larger than most people thought.

The fact that they've been at a stalemate for months and months against our hand me downs that were collecting dust in a warehouse is probably the biggest surprise. Against current cutting edge hardware it would be a rout.
 
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WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
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The fact that they've been at a stalemate for months and months against our hand me downs that were collecting dust in a warehouse is probably the biggest surprise. Against current cutting edge hardware it would be a rout.
The bolded is where people complaining about the cost sort of miss the point. All that stuff has sell by dates. Letting the Ukrainians use it is possibly worth more as a real world test than just letting the stuff sit, rot and get replaced.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
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Oct 9, 1999
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Yes - different subject but this is why I've never understood why we have such harsh restrictions on high skill immigration. America's superpower is all the best and brightest want to come here - we should be happy to steal all the smartest people!
Amen to that! The other side of the present coin, though, is that firms use H1B (sic?) visas to save money by paying less, not to the best and brightest, but lower level drones, depressing entry-level salaries across the board.
 

you2

Diamond Member
Apr 2, 2002
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Amen to that! The other side of the present coin, though, is that firms use H1B (sic?) visas to save money by paying less, not to the best and brightest, but lower level drones, depressing entry-level salaries across the board.
Well you know how it is - the majority always take from the minority because - well - there are more of them and that is how democracy works.... we see that in all forms...
 
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borosp1

Senior member
Apr 12, 2003
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Kudos to Latvia for being one of the biggest supporters to Ukraine. Now they just created a new law that the Ethnic Russians in Latvia (25% of the country) must pass a language test or be expulled from the country. Even the 70+ old babushkas can be expelled from the country if they don't pass the language test:



Russian citizens in Latvia face tests or expulsion​

THE TEST APPLIES ONLY TO RUSSIAN CITIZENS RESIDING IN LATVIA, AND LATVIAN NON-CITIZENS.

Speaking Russian in Latvia has not been a problem until now. About a fourth of the country's population is ethnically Russian, and it was generally acceptable to have Russian as a person's only language.

But the war in Ukraine has entirely changed the picture.

When Moscow began its Ukraine invasion, Latvia switched off Russian TV channels and crushed a Soviet World War Two monument. It has also started working towards eliminating education in Russian.
 

Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
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Wow. According to wiki that entered service in 1954. I'm not even seeing any substantial upgrades to it over time and apparently its armor is thin enough to be penetrated by .50 cal rounds and perhaps in some cases even 7.62.

I would not want to be in that thing anywhere outside of a museum.
Yeah, might as well ride in the back of a pick-up truck to the front - at least then you can get out quickly if you come under fire
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,573
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I always wondered why Russia tried to land probes on Mars 12 times and crashed on the surface every single time, while NASA did it in the 1960's with Viking, then later landed 5 heavy rovers. Now I know. Because Russia's tech sucks. It's a pattern.
Did you know Russia is the only country to land on Venus multiple times and send data back, multiple times? The US barely got a lander to Venus’ surface intact.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Did you know Russia is the only country to land on Venus multiple times and send data back, multiple times? The US barely got a lander to Venus’ surface intact.
This is true but I feel it should be mentioned that Russia made 16 attempts at this and all but a couple failed pretty miserably.
 
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Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
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This is true but I feel it should be mentioned that Russia made 16 attempts at this and all but a couple failed pretty miserably.
Russia has had at least 28 attempts, 13 of which entered atmosphere, 8 of which landed successfully. 8>a couple by a bunch. Esp when counting successful landings on Venus, which the US has done only once (Pioneer Venus 2….1978)

Hate the Russians all you want but give credit where it’s due.
 
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you2

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Apr 2, 2002
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you2

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Kudos to Latvia for being one of the biggest supporters to Ukraine. Now they just created a new law that the Ethnic Russians in Latvia (25% of the country) must pass a language test or be expulled from the country. Even the 70+ old babushkas can be expelled from the country if they don't pass the language test:


While I find Russia behavior disgusting; this behavior isn't much better; esp. because it calls out a specific subset of foreign people of a particular nationality residing in the country.
 
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fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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28 attempts, 13 entered atmosphere, 8 landed successfully. 8>a couple by a bunch. Esp when counting successful landings on Venus, which the US has done only once (Pioneer Venus 2….1978)
Yes but for most of those landing was not the goal of the mission.

It’s still an impressive technological achievement by the USSR and it should go without saying that space exploration is really hard, but it took them a ton of attempts to get much of anything back.
 
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