Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,550
13,115
136
I am not much for concepts like Evil cause it implies a morality that is inherently subjective to the individual and historical perspective of the larger narrative.

But Russia is getting there.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146

This is simply what Russia has always done. Always. Why would anyone not expect this to happen?

It is why many in the occupied Baltic countires volunteered to serve under the German army after they came through and kicked out the Russians again: they hated the Germans, for like 7 centuries, but it took only 1 year of occupation under Russia for them to erase those 7 cenbturies of hate. The world knows that a single day under Russian rule is the worst experience imaginable.

Russians start sending the captured soldiers and citizens of occupied territories after their own people, those people will quickly join another enemy army to do whatever it takes to prevent Russia's return. It's a fact of history. We've always known what utter shit "Russia" is.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
I am not much for concepts like Evil cause it implies a morality that is inherently subjective to the individual and historical perspective of the larger narrative.

But Russia is getting there.

dude, you're way late to the party. This is "Russian" war doctrine for centuries.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,550
13,115
136
dude, you're way late to the party. This is "Russian" war doctrine for centuries.
Well then morality dictates that Russia must be destroyed. Fucked into submission.

I mean if we’re truly looking at Nazi Germany Holocaust level depravity, what other choice than going all in is there? This keeping Ukraine just in the fight and not enabling it to demolish the Orcs is bullshit. Bullshit. Also, EU troops, boots on the ground. Lets go. If we’re truly looking at another Nazi Germany, there is no choice.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,630
12,763
146
Well then morality dictates that Russia must be destroyed. Fucked into submission.

I mean if we’re truly looking at Nazi Germany Holocaust level depravity, what other choice than going all in is there? This keeping Ukraine just in the fight and not enabling it to demolish the Orcs is bullshit. Bullshit. Also, EU troops, boots on the ground. Lets go. If we’re truly looking at another Nazi Germany, there is no choice.
Gotta weigh the probable outcome of continuing the path we're set on vs the potential outcome of engaging a nuclear power in an escalation race. Ukraine is eating shit right now but it's probably preferable to glassed cities (Kyiv included).
 

Dave_5k

Golden Member
May 23, 2017
1,664
3,224
136
Well I guess the Russians having failed to successfully mine the port approaches are now willing to missile neutral shipping.

Ukraine has thus far refrained from attacking civil shipping headed to Russian ports. The Black Sea fleet does not remotely have the assets to protect their shipping lanes from USVs.

Time to hurry up those first couple squadrons of F-16's. With AIM-120's on the other side (and assuming some decent radar coverage of black sea), Russian fighters won't be having time to shoot at commercial shipping.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,874
34,822
136
Time to hurry up those first couple squadrons of F-16's. With AIM-120's on the other side (and assuming some decent radar coverage of black sea), Russian fighters won't be having time to shoot at commercial shipping.

A Patriot battery between Odessa and Chornomorsk would probably be preferred. Maybe they'll deploy the next one they're getting from Germany here.
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
I am not much for concepts like Evil cause it implies a morality that is inherently subjective to the individual and historical perspective of the larger narrative.

But Russia is getting there.
That's an excessively liberal approach to the problem of Evil. People who repeated rape, murder and torture are inherently evil. We have this silly modern pop-sci approach to psychology where the perpetrator is transfigured into the victim. Yes, they may have been terribly traumatized as a child - that still doesn't excuse their behavior. To do so is to make an error which will result in history repeating itself in some sort of horrific way.
 
Nov 17, 2019
11,295
6,717
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When a ship leaves the Black Sea departing a Russian port, why is it allowed back in?

Why aren't they seized at whatever port they unload?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,815
49,508
136
That's an excessively liberal approach to the problem of Evil. People who repeated rape, murder and torture are inherently evil. We have this silly modern pop-sci approach to psychology where the perpetrator is transfigured into the victim. Yes, they may have been terribly traumatized as a child - that still doesn't excuse their behavior. To do so is to make an error which will result in history repeating itself in some sort of horrific way.
It is possible to both recognize that systems and trauma push people towards doing bad things and recognize that society should sanction those bad things.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,630
12,763
146
It is possible to both recognize that systems and trauma push people towards doing bad things and recognize that society should sanction those bad things.
Plus, you can hardly kill your way to eliminating the root of the problems that give rise to situations like this.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,579
7,640
136
A Patriot battery between Odessa and Chornomorsk would probably be preferred. Maybe they'll deploy the next one they're getting from Germany here.
The only proper place for that air defense, to actually do this job, is on Crimea.
Ukraine cannot ensure shipping food without control of Crimea.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,815
49,508
136
Plus, you can hardly kill your way to eliminating the root of the problems that give rise to situations like this.
Absolutely. My view on this is we should address underlying causes of crime (duh) while still prosecuting criminals, but also prosecuting them with mercy.

I think this is basically what everyone who isn’t crazy thinks but we have somehow lost the plot.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
It is possible to both recognize that systems and trauma push people towards doing bad things and recognize that society should sanction those bad things.
The problem is when these become ingrained and repeated behaviors. Then the transformation of a person's psychology from a distorted need to act out from not being loved enough (which can literally affect the brain's ability to develop properly) to full blown sociopathy. So, sure, one joins a gang (the system) or mafia because they feel like they are part of a family and are loved (they are not, generally) - but the repeated acts of violence for some reward transforms a person so disposed to become a ruthless sociopath who relationships are more transactional than genuine. That person accepts evil acts as being a good. In exchanging good for evil, they become evil - that point of no return (for so many). Makes me wonder what happened with Putin over the course of his life.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,874
34,822
136
The only proper place for that air defense, to actually do this job, is on Crimea.
Ukraine cannot ensure shipping food without control of Crimea.

Properly equipped Ukraine could protect their shipping lanes without control of Crimea. Good AD near Odessa, more costal ASMs with longer range, and eventually air launched ASMs would take care of it. Ideally a PAC-3 battery, NSM Costal Defense System, and F-16s with Harpoons (or LRASM in my dreams).
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,058
38,564
136
We sent them coastal defense Harpoons already, more couldn't hurt though. I'm sure the AFU is ready to use them given the right opportunity. Being able to target vessels hundreds of miles from shore is an issue when you don't have a navy though. Hopefully more drones and timely Western SIGINT can help them send more Russian vessels to sub duty. I feel like it's just a matter of time, like the Kerch.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,874
34,822
136
We sent them coastal defense Harpoons already, more couldn't hurt though. I'm sure the AFU is ready to use them given the right opportunity. Being able to target vessels hundreds of miles from shore is an issue when you don't have a navy though. Hopefully more drones and timely Western SIGINT can help them send more Russian vessels to sub duty. I feel like it's just a matter of time, like the Kerch.

Range goes up with air launch. Ukraine patrols offshore with TB2s. They need 150-200km of reach out and touch for AD and Anti ship.
 
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