I also see that most want peace negotiations rather than a continuation of the war although I do suspect when they think of ‘peace negotiations’ it means ‘letting us keep the land we stole’.
Would be interesting to see what percent were in support of peace if it meant leaving what territory they still have left from their initial gains in February of 2022. (They are at less then half now!)
It's an interesting issue as they have annexed those oblasts, meaning that a return of Kherso and Zapo would mean Russia accepting the 'occupation' of 'Russian' territories by Ukraine. Of course that's a good reason not to annex territory you don't control and don't look to have prospects of controlling.I don't think the average Russian gives a flying fuck about Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts. Maybe Crimea from a symbolic standpoint. Largely whatever Putin tells them is a good deal they'll agree to believe.
At an absolute minimum Ukraine is going to demand the return of all of Kherson and Zapo oblasts. What the line would look like in Luhansk/Donetsk would likely be the major point of territorial contention.
It's an interesting issue as they have annexed those oblasts, meaning that a return of Kherso and Zapo would mean Russia accepting the 'occupation' of 'Russian' territories by Ukraine. Of course that's a good reason not to annex territory you don't control and don't look to have prospects of controlling.
You're probably right though as in the end it's not like the law means anything in Russia - it's a mafia state and what the boss says goes. Then again, it would seem like a peace agreement of that sort would make Putin look weak, which is not good for your health or liberty in an organized crime situation.
From the detailed reconstruction of the March peace efforts 6 conclusions emerge:
1. Just one month after the start of the Russian military intervention in Ukraine, Ukrainian and Russian negotiators had come very close to an agreement for a ceasefire and to an outline for a comprehensive peace solution to the conflict.
2) In contrast to today, President Zelensky and his government had made great efforts to negotiate peace with Russia and bring the war to a quick end.
3) Contrary to Western interpretations, Ukraine and Russia agreed at the time that the planned NATO expansion was the reason for the war. They therefore focused their peace negotiations on Ukraine’s neutrality and its renunciation of NATO membership. In return, Ukraine would have retained its territorial integrity except for Crimea.
4) There is little doubt that these peace negotiations failed due to resistance from NATO and in particular from the USA and the UK. The reasons is that such a peace agreement would have been tantamount to a defeat for NATO, an end to NATO’s eastward expansion and thus an end to the dream of a unipolar world dominated by the USA.
5. The failure of the peace negotiations in March 2022 led to dangerous intensification of the war that has cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, especially young people, deeply traumatized a young generation and inflicted the most severe mental and physical wounds on them. Ukraine has been exposed to enormous destruction, internal displacements, and mass impoverishment. This is accompanied by a large-scale depopulation of the country. Not only Russia, but also NATO and the West bear a heavy share of the blame for this disaster.
6) Ukraine’s negotiating position today is far worse than it was in March 2022. Ukraine will now lose large parts of its territory.
7. The blocking of the peace negotiations at that time has harmed everyone: Russia and Europe – but above all the people of Ukraine, who are paying with their blood the price for the ambitions of the major powers and will probably get nothing in return.
Former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett said in an interview posted to his YouTube channel on Saturday that the U.S. and its Western allies “blocked” his efforts of mediating between Russia and Ukraine to bring an end to the war in its early days.
On March 4, 2022, Bennett traveled to Russia to meet with President Vladimir Putin. In the interview, he detailed his mediation at the time between Putin and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, which he said he coordinated with the U.S., France, Germany, and the UK.
Discussing how Western leaders felt about his mediation efforts, Bennett said then-British Prime Minister Boris Johnson took an “aggressive line” while French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Olaf Scholz were more “pragmatic.” Bennett said President Biden adopted “both” positions.
But ultimately, the Western leaders opposed Bennet’s efforts. “I’ll say this in the broad sense. I think there was a legitimate decision by the West to keep striking Putin and not [negotiate],” Bennett said.
When asked if the Western powers “blocked” the mediation efforts, Bennet said,
Basically, yes. They blocked it, and I thought they were wrong.
6) Ukraine’s negotiating position today is far worse than it was in March 2022. Ukraine will now lose large parts of its territory.
The parts I particularly liked were:If NATO membership is the reason for the war then why did Putin basically yawn at Finland's application and accession.
Oh right because it's bullshit.
Not that it's surprising but I don't think he's ever even attempted to square his 'Russia is winning' narrative with 'Russia has lost half the territory it took in the invasion' reality.In March of 2022, Russia occupied 161,000 square km of Ukraine territory.
In November of 2023, Russia now occupies about 90,000 square km of Ukraine territory.
How is Ukraine in a far worse position now than in March of 2022?
"Decided" is a funny word for "Recommended". I take it English is not your first language either? Dont worry about it.Fascinating article on the peace talks between Russia and Ukraine back in March of last year. I mentioned this in this thread around April that negotiations were in the process to stop the war but NATO sent their stooge Boris Johnson to kill the plan.
Michael von der Schulenburg, Hajo Funke, Harald Kujat - Peace For Ukraine - Brave New Europe
The disastrous derailment of early peace efforts to end the war in Ukraine Michael von der Schulenburg is a former UN Assistant Secretary-General, who worked for over 34 years for the United Nations, and shortly [...]braveneweurope.com
Some highlights:
Another story referencing the peace talks back in February:
Former Israeli PM Bennett says U.S. ‘blocked’ his attempts at a Russia-Ukraine peace deal | MR Online
Bennett says the U.S. and its Western allies decided to 'keep striking Putin' and not negotiate.mronline.org
While I agree Europe needs to take defense far more seriously, this is not true for the US, which maintains the ability to easily defeat Russia’s army all by ourselves."Why West must defeat Russia"
We are at war. We need to start taking it seriously and act accordingly. If not direct intervention, then applying maximum pressure on Russia AND its Allies, combat in multiple forms. Where our hostile acts would cease upon a Russian withdrawal, thereby creating incentive. We must also enact war time economies, where military takes center stage and production is the goal of our resources. These efforts are to prevent the fall of Ukraine, the Baltics, Poland, and others. Russia must not be allowed to expand its war machine further into Europe. Europe must not be consumed by the flames of unending war again. We must act to protect Europe by stopping Russia now.
1: Russia will never stop at just part of Ukraine.
2: Russia will never stop at just Ukraine. They keep vowing to go further. All former USSR and Empire land will face ethnic cleansing, unless we stop them.
3: Any stalemate or ceasefire without withdrawal, is just a time-buying effort for Russia to regenerate offensive capabilities. And wait for Democracies to grow weak and bored. To open the door.
4: Example, the United Kingdom has enough annual production to sustain the war effort... for 20 hours.
I'll say it again. The British could sustain the fight against Russia, for less than a full day before they expend a year's worth of ammo.
Europe is open and vulnerable, the predators of the world know it.
How many more of our people must die, before we step up and fully commit?
All of these suggestions, well-meaning or otherwise, have the same flaw: A cease-fire, temporary or otherwise, means that both sides have to stop fighting. Right now, even if Zelensky agrees to negotiate, there is no evidence that Putin wants to negotiate, that he wants to stop fighting, or that he has ever wanted to stop fighting. And yes, according to Western officials who have periodic conversations with their Russian counterparts, attempts have been made to find out.Nor is there any evidence that Putin wants to partition Ukraine, keeping only the territories he currently occupies and allowing the rest to prosper like South Korea. His goal remains the destruction of Ukraine—all of Ukraine—and his allies and propagandists are still talking about how, once they achieve this goal, they will expand their empire further. Just last week, Dmitry Medvedev, Russia’s former president, published an 8,000-word article calling Poland Russia’s “historical enemy” and threatening Poles with the loss of their state too. The message was perfectly clear: We invaded Poland before, and we can do it again.In this sense, the challenge that Putin presents to Europe and the rest of the world is unchanged from February 2022. If we abandon what we have achieved so far and we give up support for Ukraine, the result could still be the military or political conquest of Ukraine. The conquest of Ukraine could still empower Iran, Venezuela, Syria, and the rest of Putin’s allies. It could still encourage China to invade Taiwan. It could still lead to a new kind of Europe, one in which Poland, the Baltic states, and even Germany are under constant physical threat, with all of the attendant consequences for trade and prosperity. A Europe permanently at war, an idea that seems impossible to most people in the West, still seems eminently plausible to the Russian president. Putin spent a memorable part of his life as a KGB officer, representing the interests of the Soviet empire in Dresden. He remembers when eastern Germany was ruled by Moscow. If it could be so once, then why not again?The stark truth is that this war will only end for good when Russia’s neo-imperial dream finally dies. Just as the French decided in 1962 that Algeria could become independent of France, just as the British accepted in 1921 that Ireland was no longer part of the United Kingdom, the Russians must conclude that Ukraine is not Russia. I can’t tell you which political changes in Moscow are necessary to achieve that goal. I can’t say whether a different Russian leader is required—maybe or maybe not. But we will recognize this change when it happens. After it does, the conflict is over and negotiating a final settlement will be possible.To reach that endgame, we need to adjust our thinking. First, we need to understand, more deeply than we have done so far, that we have entered a new era of great-power conflict. The Russians already know this and have already made the transition to a full-scale war economy. Forty percent of the Russian state budget—another conservative estimate—is now spent annually on military production, about 10 percent of GDP, a level not seen for decades. Neither the U.S. nor its European allies have made anything like this shift, and we started from a low base. Jack Watling of the Royal United Services Institute told me that, at the beginning of the war, the ammunition that the United Kingdom produced in a year was enough to supply the Ukrainian army for 20 hours. Although the situation has improved, as production has slowly cranked up all over the democratic world, we are not moving fast enough.Secondly, we need to start helping the Ukrainians fight this war as if we were fighting it, altering our slow decision-making process to match the urgency of the moment. Ukraine received the weapons for its summer fighting very late, giving the Russians time to build minefields and tank traps—why? Training by NATO forces for Ukrainian soldiers has in some cases been rushed and incomplete—why? There is still time to reverse these mistakes: Zaluzhny’s list of breakthrough technologies, which includes tools to gain air superiority and better wage electronic warfare, should be taken seriously now, and not next year.But the path to end this war does not only lead through the battlefield. We need to start thinking not just about helping Ukraine, but about defeating Russia—or, if you prefer different language, persuading Russia to leave by any means possible. If Russia is already fighting America and America’s allies on multiple fronts, through political funding, influence campaigns, and its links to other autocracies and terrorist organizations, then the U.S. and Europe need to fight back on multiple fronts too. We should outcompete Russia for the scarce commodities needed to build weapons, block the software updates that they need to run their defense factories, look for ways to sabotage their production facilities. Russia used fewer weapons and less ammunition this year than it did last year. Our task should be to ensure that next year is worse.
If NATO membership is the reason for the war then why did Putin basically yawn at Finland's application and accession.
Oh right because it's bullshit.
That’s what the mainstream media wants you to believe.Because unlike Ukraine, Finland wasn’t serving as a NATO outpost shelling ethnic Russians in the Donbass for 8 years.
In March of 2022, Russia occupied 161,000 square km of Ukraine territory.
In November of 2023, Russia now occupies about 90,000 square km of Ukraine territory.
How is Ukraine in a far worse position now than in March of 2022?
That’s what the mainstream media wants you to believe.
Because unlike Ukraine, Finland wasn’t serving as a NATO outpost shelling ethnic Russians in the Donbass for 8 years.
Funny how Russia keeps needing to invade all its neighbors to ‘protect’ the Russian speaking populations.How else would Ukraine protect their nazi biolabs growing genetically engineered polish super mercenaries?
You people should hear yourselves talk sometime lol.
Funny how Russia keeps needing to invade all its neighbors to ‘protect’ the Russian speaking populations.
It is pretty amusing when their state media is saying Ukraine is not a real country and must be eliminated and its population re-educated or killed but then trying to be like ‘but really we were concerned about NATO expansion’While simultaneously stating that said neighbors are not in fact sovereign countries but belong to them.
When you are stating the genocidal imperialism out in the open then all other excuses are pretty fucking weak.
Funny how Russia keeps needing to invade all its neighbors to ‘protect’ the Russian speaking populations.
Because a peace agreement would have given them ALL of them land back minus Crimea?
You guys can call it fake news all you want, but I’ll take the word of a former PM of Israel who was actually at the negotiating table over the armchair generals on the AT forums 🤡
Are you sure about this - i thought they were engineering mutant spiders that would crawl into Russian homes and suck the children dry. Or maybe they were generating mutant dogs that would kill all the Russians cats; i forget which mutants they are working on this week.How else would Ukraine protect their nazi biolabs growing genetically engineered polish super mercenaries?
You people should hear yourselves talk sometime lol.
But since the west DIDNT want peace(they never do), now Ukraine has 500k dead people