Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

[kage69]

I like the Grippen..


Cheap. Easy to maintain…very capable and carries a meteor missile..

The meteor missile is an extremely good and I heard the USA wants it. Note it is going to be fired by the f35 in. Couple years

Oh? While I myself think Meteor is fantastic, I haven't heard that. What I've heard is that it was an idea, but one that is getting skipped in favor of the AIM260 and future designs which will incorporate RDE propulsion, not ramjets. USAF wants a bigger leap in range, double the reach of an AIM120C isn't enough.

We will be seeing plenty of Meteors on F35s in Europe though, that's for sure. The US is still waiting on the real next gen Air to Air stuff to arrive, but there have been strides made in other areas. It's pretty cool to see all these creative engineers think up ways to maximize what can fit inside an F35. Peregrine looks impressive on paper. Half the length of an AMRAAM and less than half the weight. The reach of an AIM120C and with the manueverability of a Sidewinder. Giving F35 deeper mags is probably the only thing better than giving it extra range (for Europe anyway). And how about that Mako missile? I feel like sometimes people don't fully appreciate just how great Western tech is. The Chinese and Russians need huge specialized transport and launch systems to make large, somewhat heavy weapons acheive hypersonic speeds. R-37M would be the exception I suppose, but that thing is like 14ft long.

We fire hypersonic missiles from internal weapons bays on fighters. Heh.

 

[K1052]

Giving F35 deeper mags is probably the only thing better than giving it extra range (for Europe anyway).

Easier to just buy F-15EXs if you want a supplement that can carry an absolutely absurd amount of firepower. Poland is considering this.

 

[kage69]

Easier to just buy F-15EXs if you want a supplement that can carry an absolutely absurd amount of firepower. Poland is considering this.

Easier? Idk about that, but at least it would be more expensive.

EPAWSS sounds great but it's roughly comparable to what the level of sensors/EW in F35 do. Paying more for an updated 4th gen fighter with less capability than a 5th gen seems odd to me. F-15EX price is up to $97million a pop, though it should drop to $94million in 2025 I think. Still a bit more than the $82.5million that gets you an F35A. With the Polish Shopping Spree in effect though, if I heard they went with both I wouldn't be too surprised.

 

[kage69]

Is it just me, or does shooting down drones from a vintage trainer with a rifle sound like a metric shitload of fun?


Russia to copy Urkaine's anti-drone Yak52 success


"The announcement came on the same day Ukraine conducted “one of its largest” ever drone strikes into Moscow, with the RuMoD (Russia Ministry of Defense) claiming it shot down 11 UAVs. Russia has usually used a combination of close/short-range, point-defense AD (Air Defense) systems like Pantsir, EW (Electronic Warfare) and jammers to bring down the drones.

As The Aviationist had reported, Russia had been struggling to match Ukraine’s scale and speed of replenishing its drone stocks with non-kinetic, soft-kill systems for cheap drones across the sector and for homeland defense. However, it is Ukraine’s slow and bulky drones like the Ukrjet UJ-22 that scored notable successes in penetrating Russia’s layered and integrated air defense. The Yak-52B2 program comes amid this backdrop."


Yup, Ukraine is cleaning Russia's clock with drones and systems like Pantsir almost don't matter.

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

What little I'm aware of about air combat is almost all from TV and sites like this. But it seems modern AD was intended for the modern jets and planes like the Warthog. Single attacks, or low numbers of maybe a dozen or a few dozen larger craft. WWII AD was meant for swarms of fighters supporting bombers and had Ack-Ack guns and flak.

But neither of those systems seems to do well against swarms of smaller flying things that might be in the many dozens or more.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

What little I'm aware of about air combat is almost all from TV and sites like this. But it seems modern AD was intended for the modern jets and planes like the Warthog. Single attacks, or low numbers of maybe a dozen or a few dozen larger craft. WWII AD was meant for swarms of fighters supporting bombers and had Ack-Ack guns and flak.

But neither of those systems seems to do well against swarms of smaller flying things that might be in the many dozens or more.

I think an issue with using stuff like flak on drones is the inappropriateness of the weapon vs target. Drones are small and hard to see, so you'd have to aim by radar usually. There's also a difference between a swarm of fighters and a swarm of drones... Fighters linger, drones are dead almost as soon as you see them.

Automated 'flak' by way of an autoloading shotgun apparatus would likely work better but you'd need something that could rapidly triangulate a moving object in 3d space, and if you could do that you'd probably already be working for the DOD.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Fuckin hell, Russia is out of their depth.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1827386844771758181

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

I think an issue with using stuff like flak on drones is the inappropriateness of the weapon vs target. Drones are small and hard to see, so you'd have to aim by radar usually. There's also a difference between a swarm of fighters and a swarm of drones... Fighters linger, drones are dead almost as soon as you see them.

Automated 'flak' by way of an autoloading shotgun apparatus would likely work better but you'd need something that could rapidly triangulate a moving object in 3d space, and if you could do that you'd probably already be working for the DOD.

My point that I didn't make very well is that the scatter pattern of WWII type flak may be too wide for a small thing like a drone. A standard aircraft being much larger is easier to hit with flak, whereas a smaller thing might be able to pass through the pattern.

There was discussion in this earlier in the thread about laser sigthing and targetting of something to hit the drone.

 

[RnR_au]

Fuckin hell, Russia is out of their depth.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1827386844771758181

Yeah its almost as if Russia thought it was a good idea to go to war with smart people that has the entire American, European and Chinese parts catalog available.

Some choice quotes from an 2014 article;

Ukraine’s defense industry, which is second in size only to that of Russia in the former Soviet Union, is home to many scientists and engineers with critical expertise in sensitive areas that pose grave proliferation risks—nuclear and missile technology, to name just two at the top of the list.
...
When the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991, Ukraine was left with about 30 percent of the Soviet defense industry on its territory, including about 750 factories and 140 scientific and technical institutions. At the time of the breakup of the Soviet Union, these institutions employed over 1 million people.
...
There are, however, parts and services that Russia currently imports only from Ukraine. Russia’s military depends on Motor Sich in the southeastern Ukrainian city of Zaporizhia for helicopter engines and on the Russian company Antonov’s plant in Kyiv for transport planes. Most importantly, the Russian army relies on the Southern Machine Building Plant Association, known as Yuzhmash, in the southeastern Ukrainian city of Dnipropetrovsk, which designs, manufactures, and services rockets and missiles.
...
More than half of the components of Russia’s ground-based intercontinental ballistic missiles come from Ukraine.

Source

 

[gorobei]

My point that I didn't make very well is that the scatter pattern of WWII type flak may be too wide for a small thing like a drone. A standard aircraft being much larger is easier to hit with flak, whereas a smaller thing might be able to pass through the pattern.

There was discussion in this earlier in the thread about laser sigthing and targetting of something to hit the drone.

we covered some of this in this thread back in '22. there are plenty of modern systems fully capable of dealing with drone swarms.
(im going to go back to ww1 so everyone has context)

• with the advent of scout/biplane/bomber planes in ww1, anti air artillery became a thing. the low engine power of the day meant low altitude relative to today, so 20mm cannon fixed/towed emplacements were sufficient.
• in the interwar years, metal planes and improved engines meant the expected altitude of bombers rose. 40mm and modified naval guns were adapted to aa duty. the german 88 gun on the tiger was adapted from the 88 flak aa/at gun which was an evolution of naval 88.
• by ww2 ally bombers were operating around 30k-40k ft altitude, so big high velocity guns were required with the 20mm/40mm used for low alt dive bombers.
• for the high alt there is no such thing as using optical/visual aiming, so there is a central fire control center. radar and audio detection is used to plot a solution for course and alt. the controller provides azimuth/elevation/fuse-timing to each gun to bracket a corridor of shells in the path of the bomber formation. the range and variance of the parabolic shot means it is all probability based, so you overcome the inaccuracy with volume and numbers. that is why you see production numbers in 10s to 100s of thousands of aa units for the war.
• the cold war brought surface to air missiles and integrated air defense. yes they were intended to take out big expensive fighters/bombers, but shorad still existed as older cheaper superprop were still in use. 50cal and 14.5 soviet mg were still being stuck on afv.
• by the end of the 80's/early 90's the west was addressing helicopters as the main threat to ground units. the German gepard and us sgt york spaag were the solution. the army cancelled the york but Germany stuck with the gepard and it has proven its worth in UKR. shorad sam using stingers, sidewinders, or sparrow/amram also came into vogue. but the foundation of air defense was the big sams.
• the collapse of the ussr kinda froze everything in this state for most of the 2000s.

the new cheap drone weaponization has certainly captured the civilian imagination with tons of clickbait titles like the "end of tanks", but there were laser and emp systems being developed decades ago.
the cheapest conventional aa weapon is the 30mm programmable fragmentation round. the round has a digital fuse that gets its data programming from a collar around the muzzle as it exits. the round travels on its intercept course and detonates a small charge that scatters ~100 tungsten pellets into the drone. it has been working a charm in ukraine with only 6 round bursts needed to take out shaheeds.
there is a 50cal radar controlled targeting system from Australia. i believe they have sent a few units to UKR already with more slated as they ramp production.
the laser and emp systems arent at ramp stage but they are close. if you arent a superpower or able to spend like one, drone swarms will eventually become radically less effective.

 

[trenchfoot]

Fuckin hell, Russia is out of their depth.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1827386844771758181

That's downright erotic in a sexy-techie kind of way. "Suave....Rico".

 

[gorobei]

I didn't take away from that video that the west lost it's ability to train pilots. There just isn't a lot of extra seats to train pilots in the west.

training has become problematic in that the money and resources needed to train have been shrinking.

the retired military pilot podcasts frequently talk about lack of new/modern trainer aircraft with relevant systems for 5th gen. having to start your career on a prop trainer, then a jet trainer, then a older combat aircraft, and then a modern combat aircraft has a few redundant stages before you learn what you need. flight hours have also been cut back.

additionally delays and budget windows for combat school have left pilots in limbo where they cant get the training and are stuck in administrative holding roles. they only have so many years on their tour so some will fall so far behind schedule that they may as well drop out of the program since they wont ever get to fly fighters.
contrast this to nato forces in the 80's where they were churning out pilots and you can see the issue.

extra seats for the Ukrainians and the specialty schools for ground attack/sead/dead are going to be scarce.

 

[Jaskalas]

Suppose this is just a campaign promise at this point, but it would appear the consequences of Georgia's next election will determine if it is the last election. Belarus style, I'd imagine. I do not agree with the headline as there are many countries in the world that align with tyranny over basic human decency.

Georgia goes ‘North Korea’ with bombshell plan to ban main opposition parties​

EU ambitions face new blow as analyst warns the government’s move “would be the end of Georgia’s democracy.”​

Georgia’s ruling party has vowed to outlaw virtually all of its political opponents if it wins parliamentary elections later this year.​

 

[cytg111]

Suppose this is just a campaign promise at this point, but it would appear the consequences of Georgia's next election will determine if it is the last election. Belarus style, I'd imagine. I do not agree with the headline as there are many countries in the world that align with tyranny over basic human decency.

Georgia goes ‘North Korea’ with bombshell plan to ban main opposition parties​

EU ambitions face new blow as analyst warns the government’s move “would be the end of Georgia’s democracy.”​

Georgia’s ruling party has vowed to outlaw virtually all of its political opponents if it wins parliamentary elections later this year.​

Well thank god they never made it pass the finish line in terms of EU membership.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Georgia is only doing the fashionable thing. After all, how can you dip all five fingers into the good stuff if there are those who will stop you?

 

[Jaskalas]

Georgia is only doing the fashionable thing. After all, how can you dip all five fingers into the good stuff if there are those who will stop you?

Their current government is a result of Russia's war and victory over Georgia from 2008.
No doubt what Russia wants Ukraine to look like.

 

[Jaskalas]

Sounds like China is digging in FOR Russia.
When covertly helping is unmasked, just overtly help Russia's genocidal invasion.

China opposes US sanctions against companies helping Russia in Ukraine war

https://twitter.com/x/status/1827653697989497039

 

[rommelrommel]

Easier? Idk about that, but at least it would be more expensive.

EPAWSS sounds great but it's roughly comparable to what the level of sensors/EW in F35 do. Paying more for an updated 4th gen fighter with less capability than a 5th gen seems odd to me. F-15EX price is up to $97million a pop, though it should drop to $94million in 2025 I think. Still a bit more than the $82.5million that gets you an F35A. With the Polish Shopping Spree in effect though, if I heard they went with both I wouldn't be too surprised.

F15EX is a good bit cheaper to operate, requires less maintenance, and the payload difference is massive. 23 hard points and 29500lbs vs F35A with 2 internal hard points and 5000 lbs + 2 air to air weapons to fly stealth or 14 hard points and 18000 lbs dirty, with four of those stations reserved for air to air only.

 

[trenchfoot]

And in the early 80s, I was still crawling around F-4s dealing with Avionics. No way to know if any of our birds had been over there.

So then I'm going to safely assume that you are an expert at removing stuck panel screws. I hated doing those, especially when they're on the underside of the airframe and the previous mechanic smeared the screw notches flat trying to extract the screws and ran off just like a hit-n-run perp in an auto collision would.

 

[kage69]

F15EX is a good bit cheaper to operate, requires less maintenance, and the payload difference is massive. 23 hard points and 29500lbs vs F35A with 2 internal hard points and 5000 lbs + 2 air to air weapons to fly stealth or 14 hard points and 18000 lbs dirty, with four of those stations reserved for air to air only.

Older airframes typically are, but carrying capacity will always rank after surviveability in contested environments. Those savings won't matter if the aircraft doesn't make it back. Fly stealth? F15EX is not a stealth aircraft. While it has steath features and EW abilities to protect itself, that just isn't the same level of protection the F35 enjoys. Doubling the load out of chaff and flares from other Eagles was an appropriate upgrade I thought.

If Poland just wants missile trucks using 5th gens for spotters, they could do that with new Vipers and save substantially, afford another squadron or two. Individial loadout wouldn't be the same obviously, but 9 hardpoints can still haul a lot of bang. Poles already have the logistics and training needed from the Block 52s they run. Pretty sure they want a new air dominance fighter though, which means speed is a prerequisite. That would kind of narrow it down, not like they have the option to buy Raptors right? Sounds like they aren't interested in Typhoons. Whatever happens I just hope they get a good deal and waste no time strapping Meteor to it.

 

[kage69]

There is a certain, extra tangy element of F U involved in purposefully giving a weapon a name that is hard to pronounce by the people on the receiving end, and I'm here for it.

Meet Palianytsia, the Ukrainian drone missile that works great. Ukrainian brains and creativity FTW, once again.

I would have also accepted, the Blyat 4000

 

[JTsyo]

There is a certain element of F U involved in purposefully giving a weapon a name that is hard to pronounce by the people on the receiving end, and I'm here for it.

Meet Palianytsia, the Ukrainian drone missile that works great. Ukrainian brains and creativity FTW, once again.

Where do you draw the line between a long range drone and a guided missile?

 

[sdifox]

Where do you draw the line between a long range drone and a guided missile?

Guidance

 

[kage69]

Works for me.

 

[RnR_au]

It could be a cold winter for Russia...