Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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Roger Wilco

Diamond Member
Mar 20, 2017
3,955
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It seems increasingly apparent that Russia is running very low on missiles.

I hope these mass drone attacks cause less civilian casualties than mass missile strikes.
 
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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,704
5,433
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Did we catch this?
It seems he is capable of reversing course, a good sign

Not really.

Charity is not sustainable.

Everyone would have been better off if the prick had sat down with the US military and signed a contract to provide service at reasonable rates. That would have been a sustainable, reliable, and long term solution.

This "largess" is just Elon forcing dependence rather then accepting partnership on reasonable terms.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,576
7,637
136
^^ Perhaps a significant detection and shoot down rate will convince Vlad these are not a great way to spend limited funds.

Can probably field dozens of drones for the cost of each missile. And Vlad the Butcher has thrown many hundreds of missiles at Ukraine.
Besides, it is the stock / supply of missiles that limits Russia. Not a lack of desire to carpet bomb Ukraine.

Begun, the Drone Wars have...

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
Can probably field dozens of drones for the cost of each missile. And Vlad the Butcher has thrown many hundreds of missiles at Ukraine.
Besides, it is the stock / supply of missiles that limits Russia. Not a lack of desire to carpet bomb Ukraine.

Begun, the Drone Wars have...

Yeah, long term a less expensive solution than missiles will be needed to counter these. The good news is they are loud and slow so gun based AA should be able to take them out without much difficulty. The main issue is we have to stand up more gun based AA as it's fallen out of favor in recent years.
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,704
5,433
136
Begun, the Drone Wars have...
The drone wars could be brought to a quick end if a certain Iranian transport had an accidental collision with an AMRAAM.

Granted, that escalation could negatively effect shipping past Iran.


Ukraine becomes the petri-dish where we all learn how to fight drones. Rather sad for the Ukrainians.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,576
7,637
136
Also... it is safe to assume advanced air defense missiles cost some money....
Like, a HELL of a lot more than a mere drone. Scale this attack up to 100s, thousands...
Suddenly Ukraine has no more AA missiles and the skies open up for Russian missiles to rain down upon cities. Maybe Russian jets start flying again.

Drones are a problem that need either a better counter, or better offensive / retaliatory capabilities. Like drone swams of your own. Or long range missiles. Ukraine needs all options to not just be on the table, but delivered. If Kyiv burns, there is NO reason Moscow shouldn't also burn.

*edit typo
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
And related to the very interesting analysis above;


No train will be safe. Nor any transport convoy. Russians will be cold and hungry over winter if they are still in the Southern Ukraine.

Ukraine has a sophisticated defense industry capable of producing many products. Such a munition would be well within their capabilities and it is only a matter of time before such items start showing up deep inside Russia.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
Yeah, long term a less expensive solution than missiles will be needed to counter these. The good news is they are loud and slow so gun based AA should be able to take them out without much difficulty. The main issue is we have to stand up more gun based AA as it's fallen out of favor in recent years.

There are probably another 200 Gepard SPAAGs in the west that should be sent to Ukraine.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
Yeah, long term a less expensive solution than missiles will be needed to counter these. The good news is they are loud and slow so gun based AA should be able to take them out without much difficulty. The main issue is we have to stand up more gun based AA as it's fallen out of favor in recent years.
Miniature missiles in the toy rocket size range may also be used, don't need much of a war head or all that much speed to take down a drone.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
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Miniature missiles in the toy rocket size range may also be used, don't need much of a war head or all that much speed to take down a drone.

Radar and optically guided guns in 30 or 35mm with programmable ammunition are a much more cost effective solution than basically any decent missile. C-UAS has been moving in this direction for some time now. They are also dual role since they'll work for C-RAM too.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
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Russia must be allowed to win all the wars it starts or else does not seem like a sustainable strategic position for any country that is not Russia.

Relatedly Taiwan is seen as "a core part" of China by China so it's not hard to guess where he'd come down on that one especially since the Chinese government has him by the nuts. Never mind that few Taiwanese want unification.


 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,548
13,115
136
Not really.

Charity is not sustainable.

Everyone would have been better off if the prick had sat down with the US military and signed a contract to provide service at reasonable rates. That would have been a sustainable, reliable, and long term solution.

This "largess" is just Elon forcing dependence rather then accepting partnership on reasonable terms.

I dont understand why it hasnt happened already, I would have imagined that US gov UKR gov, EU gov, NATO would have approached SpaceX/Starlink and said, hey, nice service you got there, what we need to do to keep it viable ... Cause you know that Rus is gonna try to hack and crack and do what they can to take em down... And that leaves to believe that US intelligence already have a hand in this, in terms of defense.

So the whole ordeal smells to me.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,548
13,115
136
Russia must be allowed to win all the wars it starts or else does not seem like a sustainable strategic position for any country that is not Russia.

Relatedly Taiwan is seen as "a core part" of China by China so it's not hard to guess where he'd come down on that one especially since the Chinese government has him by the nuts. Never mind that few Taiwanese want unification.


View attachment 69318

I mean I *get* his line of thinking... The core difference between my thoughts and his thoughts is that I know I am just an armchair idiot. And more willing to throw the dices. So I'll say my piece and know no-one is going to take me super seriously.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
I mean I *get* his line of thinking... The core difference between my thoughts and his thoughts is that I know I am just an armchair idiot. And more willing to throw the dices. So I'll say my piece and know no-one is going to take me super seriously.

The view that Russia will resort to nukes and that would provoke a nuclear response from NATO over Ukraine is not really grounded in any reality. NATO and various western nations have already stated that a response would not be in kind but Russia could expect a devastating conventional response in turn. Like literally all Russian military assets in Crimea exploding within a few hours kind of response.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,548
13,115
136
The view that Russia will resort to nukes and that would provoke a nuclear response from NATO over Ukraine is not really grounded in any reality. NATO and various western nations have already stated that a response would not be in kind but Russia could expect a devastating conventional response in turn. Like literally all Russian military assets in Crimea exploding within a few hours kind of response.
Yes I know, but we also know this is not an exact science and there is margins of error on both sides of that extrapolation… Coming dangerously close to that scenario where singular mistakes can set off the dominos. And still if its even a 1% chance he will use a tactical.. its still 1%. I mean I want to roll it but can see how others can have thoughts.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,867
34,814
136
Yes I know, but we also know this is not an exact science and there is margins of error on both sides of that extrapolation… Coming dangerously close to that scenario where singular mistakes can set off the dominos. And still if its even a 1% chance he will use a tactical.. its still 1%. I mean I want to roll it but can see how others can have thoughts.

The people most at risk here are the Ukrainians themselves and they've decided not to give in. It really is the only choice unless they want to live under Putin's direct rule. Musk is writing checks on other people's accounts as usual with his surrender proposals.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
The people most at risk here are the Ukrainians themselves and they've decided not to give in. It really is the only choice unless they want to live under Putin's direct rule. Musk is writing checks on other people's accounts as usual with his surrender proposals.
Also while the use of tactical nukes would be hugely norm-defying and we don't want to get into a world where lobbing the occasional small nuke is ok the west is not going to get into a nuclear exchange with Russia over Ukraine and from what I've read tactical nuclear weapons wouldn't do much to help Russia anyway. It could use larger nukes to level Ukrainian cities out of spite but then what's the point of taking over? (not to mention this would likely just harden Ukraine's resolve)
 
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Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,704
5,433
136
And still if its even a 1% chance he will use a tactical.. its still 1%. I mean I want to roll it but can see how others can have thoughts.
A tactical is not the end of the world, and as previously mentioned, NATO's conventional response would be devastating.

This is Ukraine's choice to make, and we should let them make it.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
The people most at risk here are the Ukrainians themselves and they've decided not to give in. It really is the only choice unless they want to live under Putin's direct rule. Musk is writing checks on other people's accounts as usual with his surrender proposals.
Also, what exactly does this genius think Russia will do if they figure out all they need to do to force surrender is threaten to use nukes? All of a sudden Russia discovers it has core parts of Russia in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, etc.

This principle is the same blackmail principle as to why Democrats couldn't surrender on Republican debt ceiling hostage taking. If you show someone that blackmail works they will use it again and again until you reach something you truly won't compromise on and then we're back in the same situation, only worse.
 

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,713
1,067
136
since some may not have got around to watching Perun's latest vid, he covers the miracle that Ukrainian airspace is still contested. mostly due to both sides using s300/s400 iads.

his warning is that russia has way more reserve sams for their systems than UKR does. so every time they use a ~$200k missile to take down a $20k drone, there is a cost in availability for use against a more important target later on as well as financial cost. nato members with leftover s300 units/ammo are finite. the upside is the nasam can use sidewinders and amraam or any other nato standard aam. but that is still expensive.

UKR needs drone jammers, laser or time fused spaa(ie gepard) asap as the cost per kill vs the $20k iranian loiter munition is much better. and there arent enough of them to cover the frontline units if they are covering kyiv or other economic infrastructure.

if UKR cant maintain longrange iads, rus could start using its air force at high altitude rather than the risky low altitude runs vs all the manpads.


nato needs a counter drone system yesterday especially with china on the horizon. General(ret) Ben Hodges did an interview where he mentioned that Xi gave china's military until 2027(end of his 3rd term) to be ready to take taiwan. (ill try to find the video)


[edit]
interview time indexed

link from Perun on rus sam batteries moving to UKR.
 
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