Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,874
34,823
136
I think you're missing the relatively important point that the presence of those guys in SE Ukraine has zero to do with why Putin decided to invade. It wasn't Nazis, it wasn't NATO, it wasn't make believe nuclear weapons. Putin doesn't give a shit about Nazis, if anything Russia has adopted much of the ideology and governance structure of Nazism. Putin decided to invade because Ukraine was attempting to move out of their orbit. Period.

Russia is transparently lying about its motivations for invading and we all know it. Why insist on pretending to believe them?

Obliterating, literally, the Russophone part of the country (who Putin is ostensibly there to protect) to "de-nazify" Azov is some high test crazy talk and we should treat it that way.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
I don't understand the logic behind not letting Russia pay the debts. Sure, we don't want money going INTO Russia. But, why are we sanctioning money going OUT of Russia? Heck, I'd like to see them pay their dollar denominated debt with rubles. Then convert them into dollars and see the ruble plunge even further.

Their creditors won't let them pay it off in Rubles or Yuan. They want dollars or Euros.

The point is that if they default, their credit is shot and they cannot borrow any more money. That is bad for them, especially right now.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,815
49,510
136
Obliterating, literally, the Russophone part of the country (who Putin is ostensibly there to protect) to "de-nazify" Azov is some high test crazy talk and we should treat it that way.
It's also funny to see him complain about armed Nazis without addressing WHY they are armed. ie: Russia's 2014 invasion.

So essentially Russia is using the response to their prior invasion to justify the current one.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,631
12,764
146
I do not want to live in an authoritarian/fascist world merely because of a fear that person(s) holding the keys to monstrous nuclear destruction to all could at least in theory say "damn it all, if I/we can't have it our way, we'll blow everybody up." Call their goddamn bluff: NFZ.
Problem is, if you're wrong. You're calling the bluff of someone who's betting the fate of the human species. You're basically saying 'I don't think Putin is as crazy as he seems'. How crazy do you think he is?
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,874
34,823
136
It's also funny to see him complain about armed Nazis without addressing WHY they are armed. ie: Russia's 2014 invasion.

So essentially Russia is using the response to their prior invasion to justify the current one.

The memory of a goldfish is required to take any Russian claims seriously.
 

rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
4,389
3,120
146
On a side note. I am disappointed that US intelligence so egregiously overestimated the strength of the Russian army. This will need to be addressed at a later date.

There are a lot of possible explanations for this, making it out to be a desperate situation probably helped rally support. Also what is said publicly and privately isn't always the same.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,598
29,303
136
...

This is the biggest nonsequitor I've heard in a long time. I've lived in the US for decades, in four states on 3 out of 4 corners of the US and I've never ever seen a single Nazi, or know of any friend or aquaintance who has. Ask a dozen or so random Ukranians in SE Ukraine if they've ever seen a Nazi, or knows of a friend or family member who's had a run in with a Nazi or right wing extremist radical insurgents.

Assuming anyone here actually knows any real Nazi in the US, can you describe the extent of their extremism? Are they armed with 152mm artillery? Guided anti-tank munitions? Do they regularly shell neighboring townships? Do they hold fellow resident hostage as human shields? Do they go around setting up checkpoints around cities and occasionally shoot ex-NY Times reporters (yes, this is a reference to Brent Renaud).

Personally I know zero, and am aquainted only with people who also know zero Nazi members nor had any run-in's with one. I'm very interested from hearing from anyone who actually shares a different experience.
Maybe learn the definition (and spelling!) of nonsequitur first? You are attempting to refute my premise, not debating whether or not my premise would lead to my conclusion. Regardless, your attempt to refute my premise is comical as well. Nazis have staged loud and proud demonstrations on several occasions since Trump was first elected and have been waving their flags proudly at many right-wing events. The idea that they need to be armed with specific weaponry to qualify shows how weak your argument really is.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,844
8,309
136
Problem is, if you're wrong. You're calling the bluff of someone who's betting the fate of the human species. You're basically saying 'I don't think Putin is as crazy as he seems'. How crazy do you think he is?
Frankly I do not believe he's that crazy. I also do not believe Russians would follow his orders to attack major cities with Nukes. Have faith in humanity. If humanity isn't up to it, too bad. In any case, do you want humanity to live Orwellian simply because those in power will kill everyone if they aren't compliant and are courageous enough to insist on dignified living?
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,285
8,205
136
Well that's what happens when the whole Kremlin is made up of thieves and people who won't tell you no because they don't want to fall out of a 5th floor window. Putin got high on his own supply.


Which makes it all the more worrying that he shows so little sign of acknowledging he miscalculated the whole thing. Given it's hard to see any way he can 'win', I guess he's going to just keep escalating, in terms of brutality and destruction.

Also, his stupidity seems like just a mirror-image, and multiplication, of the neo-cons miscalcuations. Even in democracies ruling elites seem to make the same mistke, over-and-over. It's also reminiscent of Saddam invading Iran.
 
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Number1

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,881
549
126
YeAh BuT wHaT aBoUt GaS pRiCeS!?
What's that supposed to mean?

This article has changed my mind on a few things. We should be helping Ukrainians kill as many Russian soldiers as possible in anyway we can. That's the fastest way out of this conflict.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,285
8,205
136
Maybe learn the definition (and spelling!) of nonsequitur first? You are attempting to refute my premise, not debating whether or not my premise would lead to my conclusion. Regardless, your attempt to refute my premise is comical as well. Nazis have staged loud and proud demonstrations on several occasions since Trump was first elected and have been waving their flags proudly at many right-wing events. The idea that they need to be armed with specific weaponry to qualify shows how weak your argument really is.

I thought non sequitur was two words? Or maybe hyphenated?

Anyway, there are obviously groups of Nazis in the US, and the US being what it is, they are armed. But it does seem as if Ukraine has a more historically significant Nazi problem - it, after all, goes right back to the actual historical Nazis. That doesn't justify the invasion, or support Putin's mad comments.

 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
I thought non sequitur was two words? Or maybe hyphenated?

Anyway, there are obviously groups of Nazis in the US, and the US being what it is, they are armed. But it does seem as if Ukraine has a more historically significant Nazi problem - it, after all, goes right back to the actual historical Nazis. That doesn't justify the invasion, or support Putin's mad comments.


Yes, article does not even mention that the SS used Ukrainian auxiliaries to guard the extermination camps in Poland.

Still, this is all quite irrelevant to Putin or this invasion.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,631
12,764
146
Frankly I do not believe he's that crazy. I also do not believe Russians would follow his orders to attack major cities with Nukes. Have faith in humanity. If humanity isn't up to it, too bad. In any case, do you want humanity to live Orwellian simply because those in power will kill everyone if they aren't compliant and are courageous enough to insist on dignified living?
We already live Orwellian, and we accepted it with open arms and thundering applause, so that's completely aside from the point. You grossly overestimate how much faith you should have in humanity. Right now there's Russians bombing hospitals and schools in Ukraine. What difference does it make how big the bomb is at that point?

As of right now, if no peace accord is reached, Ukraine will push Russia's military out, that's an inevitability at this point. I feel that at that point, Putin will drop the hammer on Kyiv. Let's see how crazy he actually is.
 
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adamsleath

Member
May 4, 2007
118
40
101
I think you're missing the relatively important point that the presence of those guys in SE Ukraine has zero to do with why Putin decided to invade. It wasn't Nazis, it wasn't NATO, it wasn't make believe nuclear weapons. Putin doesn't give a shit about Nazis, if anything Russia has adopted much of the ideology and governance structure of Nazism. Putin decided to invade because Ukraine was attempting to move out of their orbit. Period.

Russia is transparently lying about its motivations for invading and we all know it. Why insist on pretending to believe them?
How was Ukraine moving out of Russia's orbit? Genuinely interested.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,844
8,309
136
We already live Orwellian, and we accepted it with open arms and thundering applause, so that's completely aside from the point. You grossly overestimate how much faith you should have in humanity. Right now there's Russians bombing hospitals and schools in Ukraine. What difference does it make how big the bomb is at that point?

As of right now, if no peace accord is reached, Ukraine will push Russia's military out, that's an inevitability at this point. I feel that at that point, Putin will drop the hammer on Kyiv. Let's see how crazy he actually is.
Thankfully, you are NOT Secretary of State, and I'll add that Mr. Zelenskyy wouldn't appreciate your comments.

I also disagree that we live in Orwellian times. Russians surely do but you can protest a war in America (any war including one with US participation) without being summarily arrested. I live where the Vietnam war was extremely unpopular and people weren't afraid to make that known.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,598
29,303
136
I thought non sequitur was two words? Or maybe hyphenated?

...
I've always used it as two words in the past, but the single word version was not redlined in my spell check so I just left it. Not sure what the exact rules for usage are.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,002
14,532
146
I've always used it as two words in the past, but the single word version was not redlined in my spell check so I just left it. Not sure what the exact rules for usage are.

.


The noun non sequitur refers to a statement or conclusion that does not follow logically from what preceded it. It is two words. It comes from Latin, where it means, literally, it does not follow. Non sequitur is unhyphenated except when it’s a phrasal adjective preceding a noun. Because it has been in English a long time, it is unitalicized.

A non sequitur isn’t just a random statement that comes out of nowhere. It is a statement that conspicuously does not follow what precedes it. For example, if I walk up to you and say, “The elephant gestation period is 22 months,” it would be random, but not a non sequitur (because nothing preceded it). If you ask how I am and I answer by saying something about elephants, that would be a non sequitur.

Examples
What seems a non sequitur makes sense in the context of the jumbled, disorienting music. [Wall Street Journal]
Like the late Hedberg, the New York-based comedian specializes in quick, everyday observations punctuated by hilarious non sequiturs. [Minneapolis Star-Tribune]
This song comes complete with its own collection of non sequiturs you’d usually expect from chemically enhanced dance music. [BBC News]
If the impetus for reform is the futility of prosecution … then decriminalization is a non-sequitur response. [National Post]
 
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