Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,846
13,778
146

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,844
8,309
136
Stanley Kubrick (via Terry Southern, IIRC) was all over this. Dr. Strangelove, or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb was a watershed moment. Much more so than 2001 or any of his other work, IMO.

A film about what could happen if the wrong person pushed the wrong button -- and it played the situation for laughs.
Reading up on Dr. Strangelove at Wikipedia, I came upon this gem. I would never guess...
- - -
George C. Scott played the role of General Buck Turgidson, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In this capacity General Turgidson was the nation's highest-ranking military officer and the principal military advisor to the President and the National Security Council. He is seen during most of the movie advising President Muffley on the best steps to take in order to stop the fleet of B-52 Stratofortresses that was deployed by Brigadier General Jack D. Ripper to drop nuclear bombs on Soviet soil.

According to James Earl Jones, Kubrick tricked Scott into playing the role of Gen. Turgidson far more ridiculously than Scott was comfortable doing. Kubrick talked Scott into doing over-the-top "practice" takes, which Kubrick told Scott would never be used, as a way to warm up for the "real" takes. Kubrick used these takes in the final film, causing Scott to swear never to work with Kubrick again.[31]
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,581
7,642
136
I hope Trump's politically oh so very incorrect attitude concerning this war is one more nail in the coffin of his failed presidential aspirations going forward.

With Fox News's pro Russia hosts?
Millions of Americans are being conditioned to side with Putin and Trump. Millions.
 

Number1

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,881
549
126
Why is Russia even using supersonic missiles, much less hypersonic?
Does Ukraine have that great of an anti-missile defense system?
SUpersonic is prety welll your standard run of the mill missile. They used the hypersonic just to show off their capability. Another scare tactic.
 
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adamsleath

Member
May 4, 2007
118
40
101
Remember when the us assassinated bin Ladin?

Is Putin's whereabouts known?

If any nuke is exploded in Ukraine.

Then what ?

Consider surrender of Ukraine ?
Or escalate to assassinate Putin ?

I'd be motivated to cut the head off the snake .

No doubt if it got to that stage Putin would be safe in a bunker anyway.
That's assuming a coup did not occur.

___
Right now there is a relatively low number of casualties amongst the pawns and civvies . Compared to what might happen.

Threats mean nothing until it happens.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,844
8,309
136
With Fox News's pro Russia hosts?
Millions of Americans are being conditioned to side with Putin and Trump. Millions.
Seems we're destined to share the country with morons from here on out.

Edit: I NEVER EVER watch Fox News. I haven't watched a single Tucker clip since the invasion. Yes, I'm curious... but haven't bothered.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
Actually,
The Russian systems are not new and not all that complicated. They are not that evasive and the "maneuvering" is fairly limited (while significantly reducing the speed with each correction) and based off of basic GLONAS corrections.
Kinzhals are literally air launched Iskander balistic (developed close to 40 years ago during the Soviet era and then finally fielded in the 90's after it predecessor got trashed due to treaties) ) missiles adapted to work off aircraft weapon systems. It still follows a semi ballistic profile path. All they did was change the launch platform.

If you can defend against Scud missiles, you can defend against Kinzhals.

The Avengaurd, while notable for materials improvement is am ICBM launched unpowered glide vehicle that does all the silly things that glide vehicles do when they course correct \change. These are not "hypersonics weapons" in the scary way.
These are ballistic projectiles hooked up to GLONAS.

Hypersonic weapons that are ACTUALLY hypersonic, with low altitude trajectory and maneuverable are scary and challenging and requires multilayer defenses that will include lasers.
Russia doesn't have that.

Not according to multiple media sources. I'll just drop the wiki on the Kinzhal here.


The Kh-47M2 Kinzhal ("dagger") is a Russian nuclear-capable hypersonic aero-ballistic air-to-surface missile.[10][11] It has a claimed range of more than 2,000 km (1,200 mi), Mach 10 speed, and an ability to perform evasive maneuvers at every stage of its flight.

It can carry both conventional and nuclear warheads[12] and can be launched from Tu-22M3 bombers or MiG-31K interceptors. It has been deployed at airbases in Russia's Southern Military District and Western Military District.[13][14] The Kinzhal entered service in December 2017 and is one of the six new Russian strategic weapons unveiled by Russian President Vladimir Putin on 1 March 2018.

A few things I picked up from reading several news reports. US officials think that Russia is running low on precision guided missiles, which is why they used this, in spite of not having that many of them and the fact it is still being tested.

The original source of information on the missile's capabilities came from Putin and the Russian government. It's unclear if any it has been corroborated by US intelligence.

Nonetheless, media everywhere is reporting that this missile is evasive and cannot be intercepted. So if you've got a better source, please link it. If the media is getting this wrong, I'd like to know why.
 

uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,578
2,913
136
I think the issue is anything moving at mach 10 is going g so fast that "evasive" is a very relative term. Turn radius would be measured in hundreds of miles and a kinetic kill might be difficult but of the countering missile is a low angle of deflection off the incoming ballistic I dont think it would be impossible. But I have no clue what the capabilities are.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,658
5,228
136
Yes, like I said, economic consequences. And the reality is, unpalatable though it may be, a nuclear armed country can gas cities without expecting a military response from countries not directly involved or formally allied. That is the reality of the leverage that nukes give you. Because it isn't rational to risk national extinction to protect another country from chemical weapons. It just isn't.

Fortunately, this is not 1939, when Germany was largely self-sufficient and barely had any foreign trade. This world is economically interdependent. For example, if China wasn't trading with the US, it's more than possible, even likely, that they would have invaded Taiwan already.

Severe sanctions won't end the murderous behavior in Ukraine, not in the short term. But give it time and it's likely to solve the problem one way or another.

This position is a tremendous selling point for Iran, NK, Pakistan or any other country to aquire nuclear arms.

Commit genocide in Iraq? We invade and topple govt.

Have nukes? Ah well.. Nothing we can do, gas away and we'll wag our finger from a safe distance.

Why would Iran EVER give up it's nuclear program? No country should ever give it away, ever.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,658
5,228
136
Thanks. I'll read up on it. In general there is so much BS "science" and woman shaming on the whole breastfeeding/formula thing I never know if a compliant is real or not. My wife couldn't hardly produce milk, and my daughter was losing weight when she was supposed to be gaining and literally screamed all night for the first two weeks of her life, getting just a few hours of sleep a day. Doctor finally said "if she is literally screaming all night, she is probably hungry." We gave her some formula and for the first time she actually slept longer than 30 minutes. Wife went to the lactation consultants, etc, and had no improvement, could only produce an once or two at a time. I did a lot of reading of actual journal articles on the NIH's website and there is very little real data to back up all the formula hate (in the US), it's basically anti-vax by another name.

Of course in a third world country where you can't get clean water, and formula is very expensive, breast feeding has some obvious massive benefits.

Same exact story for us and kid #1.

Hospital and lactation "consultant" pushed the breast milk and demonized formula do hard they had my wife feeling like a failure for not trying hard enough or doing it right.
Meanwhile baby was hungry and the consultant just glossed over that... Like being a postpartum new mother wasn't overwhelming enough.

Grandma called bullshit and got formula. Baby ate it up and starting sleeping and putting on weight.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,581
7,642
136
Why would Iran EVER give up it's nuclear program? No country should ever give it away, ever.

And some day one of the humans in those countries will see fit to use one. Because humans are emotional, irrational creatures. If Russia cannot be trusted with not using Nukes, who can? Answer is no one can be trusted. Each nuclear nation is an additional existential threat to the planet.
 
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Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,658
5,228
136
And some day one of the humans in those countries will see fit to use one. Because humans are emotional, irrational creatures. If Russia cannot be trusted with not using Nukes, who can? Answer is no one can be trusted. Each nuclear nation is an additional existential threat to the planet.

Which is why we can't take a overly detered position wrt nuclear threats.

The only safe position is for the other side to know nukes do not give them any safety. All that effort, sanctions and expense will be for nothing. We'll kill you dead either way
 

itsmydamnation

Platinum Member
Feb 6, 2011
2,867
3,418
136
Whoa there. ICBMs have always been hypersonic. They’ve been around since the 50’s. The only new thing is there are now hypersonic gliding cruise missiles.

I’m not entirely certain some of the Aegis based systems couldn’t shoot one down. Maybe someone with more knowledge could chime in.
Ballistic missiles either have to slow down to be manurable or go dead on trajectory, both cases give an opportunity for interception. Its why basically the most closely guarded secret the US has is how fast can their aircraft carriers move , because if you knew the answer you would know which option is best when trying to tactical nuke a fleet.

its also a question of how quickly Russian could lunch how many weapons , you have seen how well their communication and command structure has worked so far.
 

itsmydamnation

Platinum Member
Feb 6, 2011
2,867
3,418
136
The original source of information on the missile's capabilities came from Putin and the Russian government. It's unclear if any it has been corroborated by US intelligence.

Nonetheless, media everywhere is reporting that this missile is evasive and cannot be intercepted. So if you've got a better source, please link it. If the media is getting this wrong, I'd like to know why.
This is just dumb logic , why cant it be intercepted? it's not like we are all using slow arse rotational beam radars. We are all active and passive phase array with beam steering based target illumination . This is just dumb people , aka jurno's, quoting dumb things.

there are two main things to consider

1. HE war head
2 . tactical nuke.

1. the problem defending against a hypersonic weapon is not intercepting it , its the kinetic energy it has , of example most ship anti missile systems are close range , so you intercept it and it still strikes and can easily cripple or sink your vessel.
2. the tactical nuke , you still intercept it and it still hits something but no glass is created.

So dump people aka Jurno's take the first point and use it with the 2nd point.

You also cant beat physical no matter how much PR you do. Air resistance is a bitch at low altitudes , good for the manoeuvrability bit , really bad for control and G load.
 
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adamsleath

Member
May 4, 2007
118
40
101
And some day one of the humans in those countries will see fit to use one. Because humans are emotional, irrational creatures. If Russia cannot be trusted with not using Nukes, who can? Answer is no one can be trusted. Each nuclear nation is an additional existential threat to the planet.
there is a difference though. in the number of nukes the country has.
in my opinion.
at least that has been an often used message that smaller nations ie. with less nukes could be utterly obliterated before causing (too much) damage elsewhere.

it is still a horrific prospect obviously...
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
This position is a tremendous selling point for Iran, NK, Pakistan or any other country to aquire nuclear arms.

Commit genocide in Iraq? We invade and topple govt.

Have nukes? Ah well.. Nothing we can do, gas away and we'll wag our finger from a safe distance.

Why would Iran EVER give up it's nuclear program? No country should ever give it away, ever.

Yeah you're right, because of this rationale, we should really start using our military against nuclear armed countries and see how long we survive. Anyone taking any bets?

Yeah, those are problems. Us getting into a nuclear war is a worse problem. Worse than any problem in the entire history of the human race.

See, you can wax on and on about these slippery slopes, but none of you taking this position has ever addressed the unthinkable risk of going to war with a nuclear armed country. No, it isn't right that they can get away with these things. But it is, in fact, reality.

This discussion is turning idiotic. If you want us to use military force against nuclear armed countries, you're entitled to that opinion, ludicrous though it may be.
 
Reactions: pmv
Nov 17, 2019
11,295
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So, if Siberian airbursts would doom us all, why aren't we all dead after Bikini Atoll, Vegas and all of the other airburst tests of the 50s?
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,633
12,765
146
So, if Siberian airbursts would doom us all, why aren't we all dead after Bikini Atoll, Vegas and all of the other airburst tests of the 50s?
Ground detonation. Airbursts do a lot of destruction to infrastructure, but don't tend to generate a lot of dust in the air. Ground detonations send shitloads of irradiated material upwards, which then spreads out via wind currents.

Note that enough air bursts will still irradiate large swathes of a given area and enough of them will still irradiate the planet, it just takes far less work to do it with ground detonations.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,633
12,765
146
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