Russia on brink of ... NOPE! Russia INVADES Ukraine!

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Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,802
8,362
136
There is the matter of getting it all there. But Russia would need time to amass a sizeable force too.

I think in such a scenario the tolerance for risk would go up quite a bit, and you’d see the super high value platforms like B2/B1B/F22 surged. If Ukraine is doing alright with MIG’s and HARM strapped to them stealth, advanced sensors, and huge numbers would probably decimate Russian air/air defence in short order.

If we would have had the same buildup time along the RU/Poland border as we did along the Ukraine border, I'm fairly confident we could have had the necessary equipment in place to achieve those same results. I'm actually not convinced that the preplaced units and air/sea power wouldn't be able to do it alone as is either ...

I said it earlier in the thread months ago, there would have been a smoldering armor graveyard a little north and west of where it is now. And I doubt it would have been as far west as the Fulda gap either.
 

Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,386
7,027
136

I removed the original post because it wasn't verified but I did see where the source was talking about it from..


Seems intuition (if it pans out) rather than fact.
 
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Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,802
8,362
136
Right they never thought they'd have to supply an old school tube and rocket artillery war for months since air assets would have been raining hell on everything in relatively short order.

This is not to mention the vast amount of standoff range munitions the US possess. The Kerch bridge would have been mass TLAM'd almost immediately and sent to join the Black Sea fleet on the bottom.

And I wonder exactly how much of what we supplied was just surplus sitting stockpiled somewhere "safe". I doubt much if any was frontline or from anywhere that we expect might be an issue. Also, like you said, it's all from systems that aren't really what we'd depend on in a modern shooting war. We like our Tomahawks and laser guided bombs way too much for that.
 
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deustroop

Golden Member
Dec 12, 2010
1,916
354
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Good luck doing any of that while Russia still has a nuclear arsenal, Russian land will not be touched by the Western allies so long as it's maintained.

I can see this conflict "ending" like the North/South Korean war. Maybe in 12-24 months a full DMZ is setup and Russia ends up like North Korea.
No, I mean
1) Your scenario is politically inadequate.I doubt Ukraine is prepared to throw out its declared conditions for a settlement.The Korean arrangement would never apply to a more modern state as it discounts the prospects of ever gaining reparations, putting defeated leaders at the end of a rope and military peace. Try seeing a denoument like the Hitler bunker and you will be closer to the likely ending required to achieve Ukraine's conditions for a cease fire..
2) People remain surprisingly meek on this issue and so easily intimidated by " nuclear weapon". It is an irrelevant threat when his opponents in the neighborhood have way more such weapons than Russia.If he goes to guns so does everyone else, so whats the point of bringing it up other than to scare us ?
3) If he were in the slightest inclined to use one, why the hell would he wait ? Using one at the end, when all his forces are capitulated , makes no sense if you think about it. The time to use one is at least by this time, when the weapon might help but using at the time all is lost--just pointless. The west absorbes one hit while the Russian state is dematerialized by the West counter strike.
4) I suspect no military officers, with the prospect of losing their families for a lost cause would execute the Order to launch a nuclear strike; rather they would far more likely tell him to take it like a man or stick it you know where. And a supoint here, aren't people, when considering this issue, completely forgetting how overrated the Russian military was up to now. " Launch ? Now where did I leave that black box ? Oh damn, the fuse is missing " and so on. Don't forget that video of a failed Rusian anti air missile that did a wobbly turn after launch and returned to base. LOL-nulear threat indeed.
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,386
7,027
136

For eight months, Russia has been attempting to press toward Bakhmut from every direction. This is the location for which the Wagner mercenary group has made repeat visits to Russian prisons, recruiting people to die fighting to obtain the same blocks over and over. It’s also the location where the gain and losses have been measured in such ridiculously small increments that observers have become intimately familiar with what is on each block. The hardware store. The cement factory. Or, to be more honest, they’ve become familiar with what shows up when you look at the map on Google—because all those businesses are now rubble.

In the effort to take Bakhmut, Russia has sometimes blanketed the streets east of the city with bodies. An October advance that seemed to show Russia finally reaching the outer blocks of Bakhmut proper was followed by a swift pushback from Ukraine that drove Wagner out of the town and back to positions it held in August. Then Russia went right back to attacking again.

However, it’s possible that in the last few days, the static situation may have changed.


Really, the situation at Bakhmut has been so static that many analysts have voiced suspicions that Ukraine wants it this way. Perhaps pinning down Wagner Group in futile efforts to capture this one well-fortified area is designed to simply chew through Russian forces and keep some of their most experienced commanders stuck playing supervisor to increasingly worthless troops hurled through a World War I-style no man’s land to their inevitable deaths.
 
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Indus

Lifer
May 11, 2002
10,386
7,027
136
Time is key here and always has been, since the 10 day Special Operation failed. Russia hoped that the midterms would deliver for them but it didn’t..

now their plan is that the West grow weary (already, peace talks mooted)…if the West folds, then all bets are off for expansion into non NATO countries…

If the West can keep their nerve (and fully support Ukraine), then Russia folds…hopefully the West realise this and keep that support going

Btw Macron is a shit, he should be at The Hague for the way he sacrificed his own people in his bid to get a French company supplying COVID vaccines by questioning other vaccines not French produced…

Btw many had suggested that the new Italian P.M. Meloni would be one of russia's stooges but the girl is keeping to her word with additional arms exports to Ukraine and this latest move which is a nice kick in the balls to putin.

 

Young Grasshopper

Senior member
Nov 9, 2007
935
306
136
Making Russia the party that won't talk because they refuse to withdraw is the correct move. It saps any complaints that Kyiv or US/EU won't talk of strength.

What is the point of talking to Russia if Russia has already withdrawn? Totally pointless. Just more BS from Biden. This is his way is saying we have no interest in peace since we love endless wars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,717
49,302
136
What is the point of talking to Russia if Russia has already withdrawn? Totally pointless. Just more BS from Biden. This is his way is saying we have no interest in peace since we love endless wars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
'Your insistence that we end our invasion of our neighbor shows you have no interest in peace' is a pretty incredible position to take.

My apologies if you said it and I missed it but the other day you seemed very angry about about 1,000 US troops in Syria. Russia has ~200,000 troops in Ukraine so I imagine you're roughly 200x angrier at Russia than the US. Can you confirm?
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,764
34,641
136
What is the point of talking to Russia if Russia has already withdrawn? Totally pointless. Just more BS from Biden. This is his way is saying we have no interest in peace since we love endless wars.

The US and allies are strongly committed to the principle of Ukrainian territorial integrity. He'd need to pull back to the pre-Feb 24 line likely at a bare minimum to get anybody to the table. Putin will eventually need some solution that sees Russia receive substantial or compete sanctions relief and with his army on the losing end his ability to dictate terms is pretty limited.
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,383
7,274
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What is the point of talking to Russia if Russia has already withdrawn? Totally pointless. Just more BS from Biden. This is his way is saying we have no interest in peace since we love endless wars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You're a buffoon. The point of talking after they withdraw is to officially end hostilities and set guidelines for normalizing relations.

Stop blaming the victims for wanting to defend themselves from imperial aggression. Your whole worldview seems to be reactive "USA bad, so anything anti-USA is good". Pretty simplistic and moronic.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,764
34,641
136
'Your insistence that we end our invasion of our neighbor shows you have no interest in peace' is a pretty incredible position to take.

This is verbatim the Russian position. Making them say it all the time relives any pressure on Ukraine or the countries supporting it to cease aid and push for negotiations.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,717
49,302
136
This is verbatim the Russian position. Making them say it all the time relives any pressure on Ukraine or the countries supporting it to cease aid and push for negotiations.
Seems pretty terrible that USSR/Russia prolonged WW2 so long by insisting on not having large parts of their country conquered by invaders. Think how many lives could have been saved had they just surrendered to the benevolent Nazis.
 
Nov 17, 2019
11,269
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Not a window, but some stairs. Maybe.

Vladimir Putin 'fell down stairs at home and soiled himself'
https://www.lbc.co.uk › news › vladimir-putin-fell-down-stairs-at-home-and-soiled-himself
Today Russian leader Vladimir Putin fell down the stairs at his official residence and soiled himself, according to claims made on a Telegram channel with purported links to his inner circle. Putin, 70, suffered the fall at home on Wednesday evening, the Telegram channel SVR claimed.


All articles rely on the same source. Credibility in question.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,033
4,798
136
Not a window, but some stairs. Maybe. Vladimir Putin 'fell down stairs at home and soiled himself' https://www.lbc.co.uk › news › vladimir-putin-fell-down-stairs-at-home-and-soiled-himself Today Russian leader Vladimir Putin fell down the stairs at his official residence and soiled himself, according to claims made on a Telegram channel with purported links to his inner circle. Putin, 70, suffered the fall at home on Wednesday evening, the Telegram channel SVR claimed. All articles rely on the same source. Credibility in question.
Obviously he didn't fall far enough....
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,650
5,224
136
Not a window, but some stairs. Maybe.

Vladimir Putin 'fell down stairs at home and soiled himself'
https://www.lbc.co.uk › news › vladimir-putin-fell-down-stairs-at-home-and-soiled-himself
Today Russian leader Vladimir Putin fell down the stairs at his official residence and soiled himself, according to claims made on a Telegram channel with purported links to his inner circle. Putin, 70, suffered the fall at home on Wednesday evening, the Telegram channel SVR claimed.


All articles rely on the same source. Credibility in question.

Fell down the stairs and shit himself? Ok, it's funny, but more like an Onion headline.
 

Young Grasshopper

Senior member
Nov 9, 2007
935
306
136
You're a buffoon. The point of talking after they withdraw is to officially end hostilities and set guidelines for normalizing relations.

Stop blaming the victims for wanting to defend themselves from imperial aggression. Your whole worldview seems to be reactive "USA bad, so anything anti-USA is good". Pretty simplistic and moronic.

So let me get this straight. Russia is supposed to fully withdraw, then peace talks can happen? Is that how wars work?

Biden: When you pull out of Ukraine we can talk.

Putin: Ok we will withdraw.

*Putin withdraws*

Biden: Sorry we were lying when we said we would talk. Now that you’re gone, we can fortify the areas you have left and ensure you don’t come back again.

LMAO. Good one. That’s not how wars end buddy. Either somebody wins or the talks happen during the conflict.

BTW no one here is blaming the victims. The victims are regular Ukrainians who are caught up in a game of chess between NATO and Russia. The real aggressors here are NATO, and the Ukrainian government for deciding to be puppets for the west. Russia made it clear for several years NATO arms on their borders was a national security threat. We’ve invaded several countries using that same reason you know like Afghanistan/Iraq/Syria/Libya, etc…and the west just ignored it. And now here we are.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,802
8,362
136
Generally speaking, the side getting their asses kicked gets the terms dictated to them by the side that's doing the ass kicking. In this case, step one is that RU retreat to outside Ukraine territory.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,764
34,641
136
So let me get this straight. Russia is supposed to fully withdraw, then peace talks can happen? Is that how wars work?

Biden: When you pull out of Ukraine we can talk.

Putin: Ok we will withdraw.

*Putin withdraws*

Biden: Sorry we were lying when we said we would talk. Now that you’re gone, we can fortify the areas you have left and ensure you don’t come back again.

LMAO. Good one. That’s not how wars end buddy. Either somebody wins or the talks happen during the conflict.

BTW no one here is blaming the victims. The victims are regular Ukrainians who are caught up in a game of chess between NATO and Russia. The real aggressors here are NATO, and the Ukrainian government for deciding to be puppets for the west.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The losing side usually doesn't get to dictate terms.

I'm perfectly content to continue arming Ukraine until the Russians decide they are tired of turning their own people into corpses.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,717
49,302
136
So let me get this straight. Russia is supposed to fully withdraw, then peace talks can happen? Is that how wars work?

Biden: When you pull out of Ukraine we can talk.

Putin: Ok we will withdraw.

*Putin withdraws*

Biden: Sorry we were lying when we said we would talk. Now that you’re gone, we can fortify the areas you have left and ensure you don’t come back again.

LMAO. Good one. That’s not how wars end buddy. Either somebody wins or the talks happen during the conflict.
Russia can end this war any time they want. All they have to do is stop attempting to take their neighbors' territory by force, in violation of the UN charter they signed.

Alternatively they can keep fighting, keep losing, and eventually do it anyway.

BTW no one here is blaming the victims. The victims are regular Ukrainians who are caught up in a game of chess between NATO and Russia. The real aggressors here are NATO, and the Ukrainian government for deciding to be puppets for the west. Russia made it clear for several years NATO arms on their borders was a national security threat.

'The real aggressor here is the country being invaded' is some next level bullshit, hahaha.

We’ve invaded several countries using that same reason you know like Afghanistan/Iraq/Syria/Libya, etc…and the west just ignored it. And now here we are.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Then by your own logic Iraq/Syria/etc. were all justified as they use the exact same reason you say justifies Russia's invasion.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,717
49,302
136
The losing side usually doesn't get to dictate terms.

I'm perfectly content to continue arming Ukraine until the Russians decide they are tired of turning their own people into corpses.
If I break into your house and steal your TV it seems terribly unfair and warlike of you to insist I return the property I stole before we discuss what else you might give me.
 
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