Russia sends troops to Syria

[werepossum]

We have trained\equipped more than 50. We have also been sending financial support for years. We cut it once we realize the people we are supporting are problems. But magically a new group rises up and we send more.

Of course the world isnt fair. But you act as if the Assad regime has been fighting just a bunch of rag tag fighters. These fighters, including elements of ISIS at one point had our support. It is difficult to control your own territory when a more power nation is funding a rebel causes. Dont act like the this problem doesnt have our hands all over it.

The war predictably widened once we got involved.

That's been American policy since way before Bush or Obama. The area has been a cesspool since far before World War I, yet we persist in snatching up one turd or another in the hopes that eventually we'll find that silver lining. Islam is inherently antithetical to Western liberalism, and probably always will be. We need to collectively accept that and move on.

Think we would learn our lessons from previous interventions. Seriously we liberated them right? Shouldnt that give them the option to do with their airspace as they fit? Or are you advocating Iraq really take its orders from DC?

Well said. It's a noble thing to liberate a people, but once liberated, what they do is their own business. Be nice to see a little gratitude once in a while, but in the end all nations will (and should) act in their own best interests. An Islamic democracy is better than an Islamic dictatorship, but that doesn't mean it's ever going to be a Western democracy. The people have different values, as is their G-d given right, and if/when they find Iranian and Russian interests more in line with their own - as will usually be the case - they will (and should) act accordingly.

 

[IGBT]

isn't your obama doing great in Syria??


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/w...r-iraq-and-iran-escalate-tension-with-us.html


WASHINGTON — Russia is using an air corridor over Iraq and Iran to fly military equipment and personnel to a new air hub in Syria, openly defying American efforts to block the shipments and significantly increasing tensions with Washington.

American officials disclosed Sunday that at least seven giant Russian Condor transport planes had taken off from a base in southern Russia during the past week to ferry equipment to Syria, all passing through Iranian and Iraqi airspace.

Their destination was an airfield south of Latakia, Syria, which could become the most significant new Russian military foothold in the Middle East in decades, American officials said.

 

[senseamp]

Think we would learn our lessons from previous interventions. Seriously we liberated them right? Shouldnt that give them the option to do with their airspace as they fit? Or are you advocating Iraq really take its orders from DC?

No, we got several thousand American soldiers killed and blew a trillion dollars for Iraq to take orders from Tehran and Moscow.

 

[Jaskalas]

Russian Warplanes Destroy 140 Terrorist Targets in Syria

• During a massive airstrike today, 14 important ISIL targets were destroyed by 34 air-launched cruise missiles.
• A new plan of the air campaign [in Syria] which envisions deployment of 25 strategic bombers, eight Su-34 Fullback attack aircraft, and four Su-27 Flanker fighter jets
• Syrian army with the assistance of the Russian aviation managed to liberate 80 towns and regain control of the territory more than 500 square kilometers.

Notice the regained land. That is how you fight ISIS. By using superiority to assist the local governments. Not arming "rebels" to destroy local governments. To hell with ISIS, and to hell with the Arab Spring!

 

[Victorian Gray]

Russian Warplanes Destroy 140 Terrorist Targets in Syria

• During a massive airstrike today, 14 important ISIL targets were destroyed by 34 air-launched cruise missiles.
• A new plan of the air campaign [in Syria] which envisions deployment of 25 strategic bombers, eight Su-34 Fullback attack aircraft, and four Su-27 Flanker fighter jets
• Syrian army with the assistance of the Russian aviation managed to liberate 80 towns and regain control of the territory more than 500 square kilometers.

Notice the regained land. That is how you fight ISIS. By using superiority to assist the local governments. Not arming "rebels" to destroy local governments. To hell with ISIS, and to hell with the Arab Spring!

Notice that your source is a Russian govt. owned propaganda outlet?

"Sputnik is an international multimedia news service launched on November 10, 2014 by Rossiya Segodnya, an agency wholly owned and operated by the Russian government, which was created by a Decree of the President of Russia on December 9, 2013.[2] Sputnik replaces the RIA Novosti news agency on an international stage (which remains active in Russia)[3] and Voice of Russia."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_(news_agency)

 

[Jaskalas]

Notice that your source is a Russian govt. owned propaganda outlet?

What are you denying, Russian airstrikes against ISIS, or Syrian army advances in the face of their allies' support?
Trying to shoot the messenger when you can't touch the message leaves you in a rather weak position.

 

[Victorian Gray]

What are you denying, Russian airstrikes against ISIS, or Syrian army advances in the face of their allies' support?
Trying to shoot the messenger when you can't touch the message leaves you in a rather weak position.

So you have no issues with the fact that your source is a Russian govt. propaganda organ? That fact gives you no reason to perhaps wonder how truthful such an organization might be? Just: 'that's what they said and I believe it and how dare you point out that fact that they are a Russian govt. propaganda outlet!'?

ok, you win.

 

[Jaskalas]

Are people who fight ISIS our enemy?
Maybe stop treating them as such.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Are people who fight ISIS our enemy?
Maybe stop treating them as such.

They aren't really fighting Daesh, they're concentrating on the rebels who are actually a threat to Assad. And Putin is *not* your friend in any way, shape or form.

 

[Jaskalas]

The US armed terrorists are all located in the west. Adjacent to what remains of the Syrian government and military. Proximity denotes threat assessment and priority. Maybe if we weren't' actively causing terrorism in Syria the international community could have more readily and easily dealt with ISIS.

And now that they are hitting ISIS... you want to denounce them as liars.
Did you call the French liars when they bombed ISIS?

Do you even have a reason to oppose this?

 

[Victorian Gray]

The US armed terrorists are all located in the west. Adjacent to what remains of the Syrian government and military. Proximity denotes threat assessment and priority. Maybe if we weren't' actively causing terrorism in Syria the international community could have more readily and easily dealt with ISIS.

And now that they are hitting ISIS... you want to denounce them as liars.
Did you call the French liars when they bombed ISIS?

Do you even have a reason to oppose this?

Yes, I denounce the Russians as liars based on the evidence on the ground (and their past history). The vast majority of their attacks have not been directed against Daesh. Putin is in Syria to save the Assad regime if he can. Daesh, at least for the time being, is, at best, a secondary issue.

""They have hit us three times now. They are hitting us on the grounds of Daesh, but they are hitting the ones who do them most damage - the Free Syrian Army," said Ahmad, speaking from the area via an internet messaging system."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/20/us-mideast-crisis-syria-latakia-idUSKCN0SE0M420151020

"Russian officials have insisted they are bombing Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) fighters and other "terrorist groups".
But Al Jazeera's sources in Syria reported Russian air strikes in the suburbs of Idlib, Hama and Latakia – all areas that have no ISIL presence and that are controlled by Western-backed Free Syrian Army fighters and other rebel groups.

The Institute for the Study of War, a Washington think-tank tracking Moscow's strikes, also said the majority of targets were not ISIL, showing that "Russia's main objective in the Middle East is not the anti-ISIL fight"."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/...sia-strikes-syria-rebels-151010080802945.html

"The Russians did not specify the locations of their strikes. But insurgents and residents in Syria reported Russian aerial assaults where the Islamic State has no presence, in the towns of Saraqeb, in Idlib Province, and Atareb, in western Aleppo Province."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/18/world/europe/russia-plane-crash-bomb.html

 

[Ventanni]

Putin is primarily supporting the Assad government who, at the current time, has the bulk of his military resources spent combating Syrian rebel forces. This recent show of force against ISIS is to avenge the downing of the Russian civilian aircraft.

I'm a little curious about the additional aircraft he's moving into Syria though. The RuAF has some pretty decent aircraft, but they lack the targeting capabilities and avionics of their Western counterparts. The Su-27 is basically doing air superiority escort and unable to attack or target ground targets. The TU-160 is basically there to launch pre-programmed cruise missiles. The TU-95 is basically only capable of carpet bombing.

Only the Su-34 has advanced targeting capabilities. It's the one doing the bulk of the work in Syria right now.

 

[senseamp]

Russian military doctrine isn't exactly based on precision strikes and averting collateral damage.

 

[werepossum]

Putin is primarily supporting the Assad government who, at the current time, has the bulk of his military resources spent combating Syrian rebel forces. This recent show of force against ISIS is to avenge the downing of the Russian civilian aircraft.

I'm a little curious about the additional aircraft he's moving into Syria though. The RuAF has some pretty decent aircraft, but they lack the targeting capabilities and avionics of their Western counterparts. The Su-27 is basically doing air superiority escort and unable to attack or target ground targets. The TU-160 is basically there to launch pre-programmed cruise missiles. The TU-95 is basically only capable of carpet bombing.

Only the Su-34 has advanced targeting capabilities. It's the one doing the bulk of the work in Syria right now.

The price of Russia handling ISIS is them destroying the rebels first, since there would be a great outcry if Putin attacked them after destroying ISIS. This way there is just some grumbling. I have little problem with this, for although we have never spent so much per fighter, if history runs true there is a virtually 100% chance of them turning against us if they prevailed anyway.

As far as carpet bombing, that works for the Russians and it's something ISIS can understand. Apparently Assad's decided it works for him too, at least in some places. Note that those places may well be in Iraq . . .

 

[werepossum]

Russian military doctrine isn't exactly based on precision strikes and averting collateral damage.

Now I'm wondering if the babe is selling fusion cores.

Hey, no one ever ambushed anyone from behind a building that wasn't there.

 

[Jaskalas]

Yes, I denounce the Russians as liars based on the evidence on the ground (and their past history). The vast majority of their attacks have not been directed against Daesh. Putin is in Syria to save the Assad regime if he can. Daesh, at least for the time being, is, at best, a secondary issue.

As I said... we've done a good job sowing terrorism in Syria. It's going to take Russia a great deal of effort cleaning it up, and if that delays them in dealing with ISIS - whose fault is that?

Russia is in Syria to treat all terrorists the same. With bombs. For the advancement of the Syrian army. Is this a goal that somehow differs from what you think should happen there? Do you believe in good terrorists?

I know the Neocon agenda is to Democratize the Middle East, as if the Iraq War and Arab Spring were somehow positive events. As if we can arm terrorists to depose governments and see positive results. As if we haven't traveled down that road before with Osama.

But maybe, the Neocon agenda of President Obama isn't something you should be defending. Which means Russia is doing the right thing. Now why aren't we?

 

[OutHouse]

Notice that your source is a Russian govt. owned propaganda outlet?

You dont say.

 

[bshole]

That's been American policy since way before Bush or Obama. The area has been a cesspool since far before World War I, yet we persist in snatching up one turd or another in the hopes that eventually we'll find that silver lining. Islam is inherently antithetical to Western liberalism, and probably always will be. We need to collectively accept that and move on.

I would amend that to "Islam as is practiced today in much of the world". Christianity was in the exact same situation as Islam at one time. It has been tamed and is mostly safe now. If the people who practice Islam secularize, it could eventually coexist with the West. Unfortunately the nuclear weapon clock is ticking over there and it almost seems impossible that muslim terrorists or a muslim state do not effect a successful nuclear attack in the next century.

Perhaps thats why we have never have seen any sign of exterrestial life. Perhaps all civilizations throughout the universe evolve the science to destroy their worlds while not evolving the ability to coexist. They all end up destroying themselves. It seems entirely implausible for our civilization to exist for a millenia (having nuclear weapons) and not use them.

 

[werepossum]

I would amend that to "Islam as is practiced today in much of the world". Christianity was in the exact same situation as Islam at one time. It has been tamed and is mostly safe now. If the people who practice Islam secularize, it could eventually coexist with the West. Unfortunately the nuclear weapon clock is ticking over there and it almost seems impossible that muslim terrorists or a muslim state do not effect a successful nuclear attack in the next century.

Perhaps thats why we have never have seen any sign of exterrestial life. Perhaps all civilizations throughout the universe evolve the science to destroy their worlds while not evolving the ability to coexist. They all end up destroying themselves. It seems entirely implausible for our civilization to exist for a millenia (having nuclear weapons) and not use them.

That is a good point. Muslims in Africa seem to be generally good people.

As far as seeing signs of ETs, they probably see Earth pretty much like we see the Middle East.

 

[Victorian Gray]

As I said... we've done a good job sowing terrorism in Syria. It's going to take Russia a great deal of effort cleaning it up, and if that delays them in dealing with ISIS - whose fault is that?

Russia is in Syria to treat all terrorists the same. With bombs. For the advancement of the Syrian army. Is this a goal that somehow differs from what you think should happen there? Do you believe in good terrorists?

I know the Neocon agenda is to Democratize the Middle East, as if the Iraq War and Arab Spring were somehow positive events. As if we can arm terrorists to depose governments and see positive results. As if we haven't traveled down that road before with Osama.

But maybe, the Neocon agenda of President Obama isn't something you should be defending. Which means Russia is doing the right thing. Now why aren't we?

I'm not defending anything. I'm simply pointing out that the 'strong guy' you love, he's gonna lie to you, he's gonna fuck you, and he's gonna leave you. And when he leaves, you better count your silverware.

 

[unokitty]

I'm not defending anything. I'm simply pointing out that the 'strong guy' you love, he's gonna lie to you, he's gonna fuck you, and he's gonna leave you. And when he leaves, you better count your silverware.

Outrageous for you to use this thread to refer to Hillary Clinton.

After all according to the New York Times, Hillary returned to the White House everything that she was caught stealing. See:

Clinton's Return Gifts Found to Belong to White House

Uno

 

[Victorian Gray]

Outrageous for you to use this thread to refer to Hillary Clinton.

After all according to the New York Times, Hillary returned to the White House everything that she was caught stealing. See:

Clinton's Return Gifts Found to Belong to White House

Uno

Start another Clinton bashing thread then.

btw,

"A viral graphic said that Hillary Clinton was forced to return about $200,000 worth of furniture, artwork and china that she had stolen from the White House. The statement contains several inaccuracies.
The Clintons returned about $48,000 in furniture, and they paid the government about $86,000 for other items. Any way you count it, the $200,000 figure is too high.

According to top ethics lawyers, it’s at least debatable -- and at worst hyperbolic -- to say the Clintons "stole" the items. A congressional investigation found poor tracking of ownership and final disposition of gifts, which makes it hard to speak definitively of wrongdoing. In fact, two items the Clintons returned were ultimately sent back to them. Finally, it’s worth making clear that the "force" they responded to was political pressure, not legal jeopardy.

Accusations of stealing are serious and require a high threshold of evidence, unmet by the charges in this over-the-top graphic. We rate the claim Mostly False."

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...viral-image-wrongly-accuses-clinton-stealing/

 

[Jaskalas]

I'm not defending anything. I'm simply pointing out that the 'strong guy' you love, he's gonna lie to you, he's gonna fuck you, and he's gonna leave you. And when he leaves, you better count your silverware.

You can't bring yourself to condemn US arming Syrian terrorists?
Or to support Russia in helping Assad?

 

[Jaskalas]

Meanwhile... (and yes, this source is probably shaky)

355 ISIS targets in Syria destroyed by Russian air force in last 48 hours
ISIS withdraws from Syria to Iraq

...started leaving Syrian territories towards Mosul city, Iraq.

 

[Victorian Gray]

You can't bring yourself to condemn US arming Syrian terrorists?
Or to support Russia in helping Assad?

Why in the world would I wish to support one murderous asshole supporting another murderous asshole.

btw, when Putin is finished with you I'd suggest being tested for STDs as well as counting the silverware.