Saddam, the videos

[Orignal Earl]

Originally posted by: irwincur
Sorry, it is the duty of an American to protect and foster freedom where it does not exist. An American is not a geographical ideal, it is grounded in freedom and the defense of such. Freeing even a single Iraq was worth it if you ask me.

That is why people join the military. To not only protect us but to protect the very ideals we stand for.

No Jail Time in Death of Iraqi General

January 24, 2006/ The jury apparently agreed with defense arguments that Welshofer had believed he was following orders to use creative interrogation techniques when he put Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush face-first in a sleeping bag, wrapped him in electrical wire and sat on his chest in November 2003. The 57-year-old general died after 20 minutes in the bag.

Sorry, but the word hypocritical comes to mind

 

[homercles337]

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Probably not safe for anyone with a weak stomach... and the sound might need to be turned down too.

Probably just the tip of the iceburg, but regardless of how it was done the world is much better with monsters like him not in any position of power...

http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html

Constantly moving the goal posts, eh? You RRR sicken me. The fact that you would resort to showing such horrid videos as a "justification" for the invasion of iraq makes me want to smack you silly! The fact that you can type makes me believe that youre human, but ... well, but ... if this was the motivation for the invasion why wasnt it brought up?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Probably not safe for anyone with a weak stomach... and the sound might need to be turned down too.

Probably just the tip of the iceburg, but regardless of how it was done the world is much better with monsters like him not in any position of power...

http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html

Constantly moving the goal posts, eh? You RRR sicken me. The fact that you would resort to showing such horrid videos as a "justification" for the invasion of iraq makes me want to smack you silly! The fact that you can type makes me believe that youre human, but ... well, but ... if this was the motivation for the invasion why wasnt it brought up?

:thumbsup: That makes two of us!!

 

[Kenazo]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Kenazo
Holy crap. Those videos were awful.

Regardless of your stance on if it was America's place to get rid of Saddam, he deserves to fry.

It was just a few bad apples. Just some like some college kids letting off a little steam.

You do realize that holding Saddam accountable for these peoples' heinous actions means our own President needs to be held accountable for the atrocities at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Falluja, etc.

Of course. Though you'd have a hard time convincing me that Saddam did nothing to cultivate the culture of hate and violence that these bad apples were displaying.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Kenazo

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Kenazo
Holy crap. Those videos were awful.

Regardless of your stance on if it was America's place to get rid of Saddam, he deserves to fry.

It was just a few bad apples. Just some like some college kids letting off a little steam.

You do realize that holding Saddam accountable for these peoples' heinous actions means our own President needs to be held accountable for the atrocities at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Falluja, etc.

Of course. Though you'd have a hard time convincing me that Saddam did nothing to cultivate the culture of hate and violence that these bad apples were displaying.

And when Saddam was our friend he wasn't torturing people? Pleeeeeeease, get a clue.

 

[Kenazo]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Kenazo

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Kenazo
Holy crap. Those videos were awful.

Regardless of your stance on if it was America's place to get rid of Saddam, he deserves to fry.

It was just a few bad apples. Just some like some college kids letting off a little steam.

You do realize that holding Saddam accountable for these peoples' heinous actions means our own President needs to be held accountable for the atrocities at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Falluja, etc.

Of course. Though you'd have a hard time convincing me that Saddam did nothing to cultivate the culture of hate and violence that these bad apples were displaying.

And when Saddam was our friend he wasn't torturing people? Pleeeeeeease, get a clue.

I don't give a rats ass when he was torturing his people. Was he doing it when he was allied w/ the US against Iran? Probably, and it was equally as wrong and unjustifiable at that point in time as any other point in time. Thus, he deserves to fry.

Keep in mind I'm a Canadian and think it wasn't America's place to be the ones to go in and fry him. It should have been something that came from within.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Kenazo

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Kenazo

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Kenazo
Holy crap. Those videos were awful.

Regardless of your stance on if it was America's place to get rid of Saddam, he deserves to fry.

It was just a few bad apples. Just some like some college kids letting off a little steam.

You do realize that holding Saddam accountable for these peoples' heinous actions means our own President needs to be held accountable for the atrocities at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Falluja, etc.

Of course. Though you'd have a hard time convincing me that Saddam did nothing to cultivate the culture of hate and violence that these bad apples were displaying.

And when Saddam was our friend he wasn't torturing people? Pleeeeeeease, get a clue.

I don't give a rats ass when he was torturing his people. Was he doing it when he was allied w/ the US against Iran? Probably, and it was equally as wrong and unjustifiable at that point in time as any other point in time. Thus, he deserves to fry.

Keep in mind I'm a Canadian and think it wasn't America's place to be the ones to go in and fry him. It should have been something that came from within.

Ahh, then we agree because I sure don't think it was our place to invade them either.

 

[raildogg]

Conjur is saying that Abu Ghraib, GITMO compares to what the Iraqis went through under Saddam Hussein. He is not the only radical leftist to compare the two. In fact, he is not the only person to compare the two. The problem with that argument is that in Abu Ghraib, as bad as it was, it affected a very small number of people and the people doing the harm were a small group of people.

I am not justifying the misbehavior at Abu Ghraib. Just sit back and look at Saddam's evils on one side and Abu Ghraib on another. You had a few rogue soldiers and some higher ups covering the whole issue. It is not widespread. I have been saying for a while that Abu Ghraib has severely hurt America's image abroad and nationally. It was a tragedy.

You do not sound fair at all when you compare the horrors of Hussein to Abu Ghraib, but coming from you, I wasn't expecting anything else.

You say why don't we invade Saudi Arabia. We don't invade them because there isn't an opportunity to do so.

Also, Conjur seems to be defending Saddam or even comparing him to Bush. Looks like he has finally gone over the edge - I know, I'm shocked too!

Usually, crimes in Iraq, this widespread, did not happen without Saddam's full knowledge. What makes you think Saddam didn't give orders to commit these acts?

As for WMDs, many Iraqis and former military officials who served under Saddam have said they were shipped to Syria. That is not a fact since we cannot verify them.

 

[Kenazo]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Kenazo

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Kenazo

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Kenazo
Holy crap. Those videos were awful.

Regardless of your stance on if it was America's place to get rid of Saddam, he deserves to fry.

It was just a few bad apples. Just some like some college kids letting off a little steam.

You do realize that holding Saddam accountable for these peoples' heinous actions means our own President needs to be held accountable for the atrocities at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Falluja, etc.

Of course. Though you'd have a hard time convincing me that Saddam did nothing to cultivate the culture of hate and violence that these bad apples were displaying.

And when Saddam was our friend he wasn't torturing people? Pleeeeeeease, get a clue.

I don't give a rats ass when he was torturing his people. Was he doing it when he was allied w/ the US against Iran? Probably, and it was equally as wrong and unjustifiable at that point in time as any other point in time. Thus, he deserves to fry.

Keep in mind I'm a Canadian and think it wasn't America's place to be the ones to go in and fry him. It should have been something that came from within.

Ahh, then we agree because I sure don't think it was our place to invade them either.

It is hard to know though if there ever comes a time when another group of people should step in to help another group of people.

Presuming that Saddam was treating his people as poorly as the American rhetoric would have us believe, and presuming that there was no oil in Iraq, would you have a problem with the US invading the country in an attempt to dethrone a tyrant?

 

[Todd33]

And didn't the right attack Clinton for years about Bosnia? It seems to me these guys that feign disgust about Saddam sure known when to pick and choose when to express their humanitarian side.

I think it's ironic that the guy who posted that Mexico is invading us is calling Conur over the edge, lol. Pot, meet kettle.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Kenazo


Presuming that Saddam was treating his people as poorly as the American rhetoric would have us believe, and presuming that there was no oil in Iraq, would you have a problem with the US invading the country in an attempt to dethrone a tyrant?

Yes and no. Basically I believe in helping them overthrow a tyrant, but they are the ones who need to do their own fighting/overthrowing. Not our young people who signed up to defend us. To me, it's not worth the life of my son to stop injustices happening halfway across the world unless it is a direct and immediate threat to the homeland.

 

[UptheMiddle]

American revolution....did the revolutionists take Britian on by themselves or was help received?

conjur, you compare "atrocities at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Falluja, etc." to those videos?!?! Seriously, what is wrong with you?

 

[raildogg]

Saddam did what he did, you can't deny it. Others have tried it but have failed.

Bringing up other tyrannies is good to show your partisanship but it advances noone. We had an opportunity to attack Saddam on the basis of his violations. Do we have that with Sudan? Do we have that with Saudi Arabia? Also, are these countries developing or have WMDs?

As for Mexico, that is the other thread.

Bring on the conversation there if you're truly serious about discussing it. I really doubt that person is since he's one of the hit-and-runners here.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Todd33
And didn't the right attack Clinton for years about Bosnia? It seems to me these guys that feign disgust about Saddam sure known when to pick and choose when to express their humanitarian side.

I think it's ironic that the guy who posted that Mexico is invading us is calling Conur over the edge, lol. Pot, meet kettle.

You also don't hear them clamoring for military action in Sudan. Imagine that . . .

 

[LumbergTech]

um...yea..if we put the prison torture videos that our own people participated in then maybe people think that there needs to be a lot more outrage in america

 

[Orignal Earl]

Originally posted by: raildogg
The problem with that argument is that in Abu Ghraib, as bad as it was, it affected a very small number of people and the people doing the harm were a small group of people.

I don't know about a small group of people

TORTURE: QUICK FACTS

# At least 27 detainees died in U.S. custody due to suspected or confirmed criminal homicides.[1] Seven people were tortured to death. At least 141 detainees have died while in U.S. custody in Iraq or Afghanistan;[2]
# Only 1 of the criminal homicides occurred at Abu Ghraib.[3]
# At least 73 of the detainees died at locations other than Abu Ghraib.[4]
# At least 54 detainees have died in U.S. custody since Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld was informed of the abuses at Abu Ghraib on January 16, 2004.[5]
# As of June 2005, 68,000 people have been in U.S. custody, and about 30,000 of those were entered ?into the system,? and assigned internment serial numbers in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, and Afghanistan;[6]
# There have been 410 criminal investigations into allegations of detainee abuse; each investigation tends to include more than one U.S. soldier, more than one instance of abuse, and more than one victim. A total of 150 U.S. soldiers have received administrative or non-judicial punishments and 74 soldiers were charged at courts-martial. The highest ranking military member judicially punished is Marine Major Clarke Paulus, who was found guilty of maltreatment and dereliction of duty in connection with the death of an Iraqi prisoner and dismissed from the service.[7]
# Reportedly 100-150 individuals have been rendered from U.S. custody to a foreign country known to torture prisoners, including to Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Pakistan;[8]

More in link

In my link from last post

Witnesses testified that Welshofer stood by while Iraqi nationals, reportedly in the employ of the CIA, beat the general for about 30 minutes with rubber hoses. The next day, Welshofer took the general to the roof of the prison and, while other soldiers held him down, poured water on his face.

The general did not answer questions, so the following morning Welshofer turned to what was dubbed "the sleeping bag technique." Invented by another interrogator who recalled how his older brother used to stuff him in a sleeping bag to induce claustrophobia, the technique had been approved by Welshofer's supervisor.

The day after the general's death, prosecutors said, Welshofer asked for another sleeping bag so he could continue using the technique on others.

"Lesson not learned," Matt told jurors Monday. "Don't give him a chance to use that second sleeping bag."

Welshofer had contended that he was following vague instructions from U.S. commanders in Iraq to "take the gloves off" and break detainees to obtain more information about the insurgency that was killing increasing numbers of U.S. troops.

The punishment:

Army interrogator will forfeit $6,000 in pay, receive a reprimand and spend 60 days at home.

I know this guy was a 19 year vet who was just following orders and his wife and children should not have to suffer without his pension. But can't you see there is something just wrong going on here.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: UptheMiddle
American revolution....did the revolutionists take Britian on by themselves or was help received?

conjur, you compare "atrocities at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Falluja, etc." to those videos?!?! Seriously, what is wrong with you?

I'm disgusted at the war criminals running our country, that's what. Or, do you condone murder and torture?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: raildogg
Conjur is saying that Abu Ghraib, GITMO compares to what the Iraqis went through under Saddam Hussein. He is not the only radical leftist to compare the two. In fact, he is not the only person to compare the two. The problem with that argument is that in Abu Ghraib, as bad as it was, it affected a very small number of people and the people doing the harm were a small group of people.

I am not justifying the misbehavior at Abu Ghraib. Just sit back and look at Saddam's evils on one side and Abu Ghraib on another. You had a few rogue soldiers and some higher ups covering the whole issue. It is not widespread. I have been saying for a while that Abu Ghraib has severely hurt America's image abroad and nationally. It was a tragedy.

You do not sound fair at all when you compare the horrors of Hussein to Abu Ghraib, but coming from you, I wasn't expecting anything else.

You say why don't we invade Saudi Arabia. We don't invade them because there isn't an opportunity to do so.

Also, Conjur seems to be defending Saddam or even comparing him to Bush. Looks like he has finally gone over the edge - I know, I'm shocked too!

Usually, crimes in Iraq, this widespread, did not happen without Saddam's full knowledge. What makes you think Saddam didn't give orders to commit these acts?

As for WMDs, many Iraqis and former military officials who served under Saddam have said they were shipped to Syria. That is not a fact since we cannot verify them.

More blubbering idiocy from Mr. bi-polar. I swear, raildogg. Some days you post like you have some sense and then other days you go off on these Limbaugh-esque rants filled with BS and eleventy logical fallacies.


Saudi Arabia: Not an opportunity? Why not? What will make an opportunity? You guys are saying we invaded Iraq over torture committed under order of Saddam (where's the proof that Saddam ordered those acts depicted in the video?) but ignore the fact that that was never used as the justification to invade (<ahem>...WMDs). The Saudis torture and don't have a democracy. Would have been pretty simple to invade and occupy. They'd have greeted us with flowers and kisses.


Saddam: I'm defending him? Where? All I'm asking for is proof of the claims being made here. I'm sure Saddam did order the deaths of some political critics/opponents/etc. but there's no proof that what was done in those videos was done with the knowledge or orders of Saddam. And the claim of 400,000 bodies in mass graves? :roll:


Abu Ghraib: Easy: Chain of Command - Seymour Hersh. Read it and then we'll talk.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Kenazo
I don't give a rats ass when he was torturing his people. Was he doing it when he was allied w/ the US against Iran? Probably, and it was equally as wrong and unjustifiable at that point in time as any other point in time. Thus, he deserves to fry.

Keep in mind I'm a Canadian and think it wasn't America's place to be the ones to go in and fry him. It should have been something that came from within.

Shouldn't those in the US (Reagan/Bush admins) who knew of Saddam's atrocities be held accountable, too, for letting that stuff slide in the past?

 

[ajf3]

Those are %$%&$ sick... I agree you can't pin it all on Saddam. It's the 'culture of barbarism' from the religion of peace. Seriously, after seeing that, how can anyone disagree that the whole lot of them are a couple of clicks below the western world on the evolutionary ladder? My god - they behave like animals in the wild - except for the additional evil and cruelty.

 

[OrByte]

I would love to believe this was the real reason why we went to war in Iraq.

but it isn't. You people are fools if you think otherwise.

 

[Shortass]

Originally posted by: ajf3
Those are %$%&$ sick... I agree you can't pin it all on Saddam. It's the 'culture of barbarism' from the religion of peace. Seriously, after seeing that, how can anyone disagree that the whole lot of them are a couple of clicks below the western world on the evolutionary ladder? My god - they behave like animals in the wild - except for the additional evil and cruelty.

A couple clicks down on the evolutionary ladder? More like oppressed people letting out their frustrations. I'm sure you and the rest of us have all done random cruel things, be it to animals, theft, etc. You can't assume you're better than another entire fvcking race just because a few militant types enjoy harassing and slaying civilians. We're hardly better.

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: irwincur

The ends don't always justify the means. His head on a platter is and never will be worth the loss of 1 American life.

Sorry, it is the duty of an American to protect and foster freedom where it does not exist. An American is not a geographical ideal, it is grounded in freedom and the defense of such. Freeing even a single Iraq was worth it if you ask me.

That is why people join the military. To not only protect us but to protect the very ideals we stand for.

So, when are you going to join to fight against the evil tyrant that's taken over America?

So when are you going to join the fight against the evil tyrant that's taken over America? You seem to have so much anger, yet what do you do other than critisize?

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: homercles337

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Probably not safe for anyone with a weak stomach... and the sound might need to be turned down too.

Probably just the tip of the iceburg, but regardless of how it was done the world is much better with monsters like him not in any position of power...

http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html

Constantly moving the goal posts, eh? You RRR sicken me. The fact that you would resort to showing such horrid videos as a "justification" for the invasion of iraq makes me want to smack you silly! The fact that you can type makes me believe that youre human, but ... well, but ... if this was the motivation for the invasion why wasnt it brought up?

I'm not the one inventing new reasons to remove Saddam. There do however seem to be many people who refuse to admit the fact that this reason and more existed prior to the invasion and were ALL used as part of a collective reason.

Keep reinventing the past, if you lie enough someone might believe you. Then again only idiots like yourself fall for the big lie.

 

[Aimster]

This kind of crap happens in many countries.

We are not the world police.

We like to act like the world police and that is why we have terrorist groups out to get us.

The U.S always sticks their nose where it doesn't belong.

All because of their mighty military power that enables the U.S to send troops anywhere and wherever they want.

We went after Iraq because...? Well I have nothing. There were bigger threats. This is a fact.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Aimster
We like to act like the world police and that is why we have terrorist groups out to get us.

Another Blame America First member.

Perhaps you missed the fact that Islamafascists are after a lot of other countries as well? Or maybe you missed the attacks in Spain and London. Time to open your eyes.