Saginaw police need some serious gun training.

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Phoenix86

Lifer
May 21, 2003
14,643
9
81
I'm wondering if we saw the same video. I can't comdemn nor justify this shooting based on that crappy video. I didn't see the suspect do anything sudden or that looked to be a reason for deadly force, though again the quality and perspective was terrible.

Anyhow, it seems like you are jumping to conclusions just as you accuse someone else of having an agenda.
You know how to spot a fanatic? They leave no room for being wrong.

I'm with you, bad video and angle taken in consideration, that looks extremely bad for the police. It looks like an execution, hell even the chief tried to justify it by saying this guy was a known trouble maker.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,540
16
0
You know, its situations like this that the Police use as a reason to spend money on new toys like Tasers. What do they do when the situation actually arises? Shoot at him 46 times. When do they use the taser? When a granny gets out of hand.

I did a quick search to see if they had tasers.

There are two investigations going on over them using a taser on a man, who died shortly thereafter of cardiac arrest. http://www.abc12.com/story/18170183/family-of-man-tasered-by-saginaw-police-calls-for-investigation
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Shit like this always baffles the hell out of me.

You have a guy with a knife vs 6 officers with guns.

The target is fairly large and appears to be walking away. What the hell makes you think you need to kill the guy, let alone put 46 bullets in him. Why not shoot him in the leg?
46 bullets is only one clip per officer. The article also states shots, not hits

Those get fired in a couple of seconds. An officer does not wait around to see if another is shooting.

Combined It is a large number, per shooter, no
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
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Are there no shotguns in those police cars? It's trivial to hit what you want with a long gun at those distances.

There may, or may not be...fortunately it's completely irrelevant. No, it isn't trivial (and I say this having competed in national shooting competitions). Not in combat it's not. If you're a top .01% competition shooter firing at targets, yeah, maybe. Remember though that if a cop misses, someone innocent may very well die (or MANY someones). If a target shooter misses they get silver instead of gold.

Even with just handguns, while you can't expect or require a random cop to make accurate shots, if there is a good shooter on the scene they should be allowed to exercise judgment. Isn't it common sense that some damage to the guy is better than killing him for sure? I'm pretty sure I would hit a knee on a stationary target at 10 meters with pistol, and I'm a lousy competitive shooter.
Most cops aren't combat specialists. In fact, almost none are. That's why counties usually pool resources just to be able to field one special response team.

Moreover exercising judgment is EXACTLY what they're doing by killing threats rather than fucking around. They're keeping the public safe from lunatics who no longer are able to live in the world, and they're doing it in the safest, most efficient way possible.

I don't think that's common sense, I think it's bullshit pansyism. If someone is a threat they no longer should be allowed to live. I don't want them captured and tried, I want the evil, worthless, cock-sucking son-of-a-bitch dead on the street. Then I want a keg-stand set up over his smoking body for a block party to celebrate the improvement of society through the actions of the cops. Just because YOU are some kind of queesy pussy doesn't mean we should all suffer.

Oh, and in combat they're seldom stationary, and neither are you. Then add windage, distraction, obstruction, pass-through collatoral damage, etc.

I understand that legalities in a specific place might require different kind of action, but the practical side is sound.
If good guys were getting hurt, they were doing it wrong. I'm not talking about self defense, I'm talking about proactive use of force. If the situation turns into self defense, then by all means as many shots as necessary to center of mass.
You're right, they WERE doing it wrong...they weren't trying to put the fuckers down INSTANTLY and COMPLETELY when they were a threat, which is what's required of EVERY combat situation, no matter what. It is the ONLY way to have a fight, EVER. Anything else gets good people hurt, and lets bad people live.

Since switching to more rational combat mentality law enforcement injury is down...some years more than 40% a year. It's been dropping steadily since making the shift, proving that they're doing some things right, including with dealing with dangerous situations.

Police almost never has to shoot anyone in Finland or Sweden etc., either to kill or to disable. It's not just a question of how aggressive the suspects are, but also how the situation is handled. Cops have the right to defend themselves as vigorously as needed in any situation, but professionalism requires actively and carefully avoiding any situations where they might have to. For instance, unless there's an urgent reason to, they won't go anywhere near an armed suspect.
NEWSFLASH: This isn't Finland or Sweden. We don't have chocolate molesters here, we have sociopathic supervillains with arsenals to rival a third-world nation. America isn't 400sq' of stoned, homogeneous happy peasants. We have no infrastructure, we have no economic sustainability, we have no social welfare. What we DO have is hundreds of millions of people barely able to survive and on the absolute edge of a complete breakdown with no support system to see them through it. We have an entire nation who not only distrusts their government and the police, they fucking HATE them and think they should die in a fire (LITERALLY). This is NOT Europe, and if you don't GET THAT then you need not talk about how to deal with ancillary problems.

Look, I get the impression that you really just lack the knowledge of the situation from the standpoint of those who have experience in it. You're trying to apply European micro-nation socialized perceptions to something so foreign that it might as well be another planet with another race entirely. You HAVE to view things from the point of view of those involved, NOT from your own remote and protected perceptions.
 
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mizzou

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2008
9,734
54
91
the only way this could mess with the police there is if they HAD tasers on them or even beanbag shotguns

without less lethal options, you can only shoot
 

boomhower

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2007
7,228
19
81
Isnt this the whole point of tasers?

Depends on the depts policy. Our policy is deadly force is countered with deadly force. Your taser is ineffective(happens a lot actually), misses, or malfunctions and your screwed. In this situation a taser would have been allowed since back-up with deadly force was available, but still not required but an option if on-scene officers chose to.

The video doesn't look good that's for sure. Another angle with a better shot of what he was walking to sure would be nice.
 

Bazake

Member
Feb 13, 2012
137
0
0
There may, or may not be...fortunately it's completely irrelevant. No, it isn't trivial (and I say this having competed in national shooting competitions). Not in combat it's not. If you're a top .01% competition shooter firing at targets, yeah, maybe. Remember though that if a cop misses, someone innocent may very well die (or MANY someones). If a target shooter misses they get silver instead of gold.


I don't follow. You're saying that instead of a couple shotgun shells at close range, you would rather have 46 bullets flying around?

And I would argue that a shot from a shotgun at 5 - 10 yards is trivial. That's the whole reason it's good for home defense.
 

clamum

Lifer
Feb 13, 2003
26,255
403
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Wow. To me that looks like a fucking execution like someone else above said. And I'm not one of the cop hating trolls on this board, either.
 
May 16, 2000
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I don't follow. You're saying that instead of a couple shotgun shells at close range, you would rather have 46 bullets flying around?

And I would argue that a shot from a shotgun at 5 - 10 yards is trivial. That's the whole reason it's good for home defense.

The point is you're more likely to miss (or be too late to prevent incident, or get pass through) trying to take an aimed shot at an extremity than point shooting to center mass. You don't prepare to have a half dozen officers all firing at once, you prepare to be alone with no alternatives.

And I would argue that until you try it in a combat situation you have no idea what you're talking about. All research backs me on this, as does most anyone who does it for a living. What do you have other than an uninformed opinion?
 

steve wilson

Senior member
Sep 18, 2004
839
0
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I think the cops were too close to him. They should of had been further back to had time to react so they could get a shot in the leg. Only the officer who they approached should of taken a shot in his leg to put him down (one of the four who were bunched should of talked about this before approaching). I wouldn't of let the dog go... the guy would of killed the dog. Also a taser as said before would of easy sorted the situation.
 

Bazake

Member
Feb 13, 2012
137
0
0
The point is you're more likely to miss (or be too late to prevent incident, or get pass through) trying to take an aimed shot at an extremity than point shooting to center mass. You don't prepare to have a half dozen officers all firing at once, you prepare to be alone with no alternatives.

And I would argue that until you try it in a combat situation you have no idea what you're talking about. All research backs me on this, as does most anyone who does it for a living. What do you have other than an uninformed opinion?


Retort:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbFLY9OIqPA


And I'm not saying I disagree with the use of deadly force. I realize the person you quoted was saying that, but I'm just saying that a couple shotgun shells at semi-close range is way safer than 46 bullets from police officers you are admitting have lowered accuracy because it's a "combat situation".
 

1sikbITCH

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2001
4,194
574
126
Dafuq. That looks like an execution.

And guys: the "shoot until the threat is down and fire into the center of mass" rule is for self defense. For use of force it's occasionally practical and reasonable to shoot elsewhere.

For instance, here's something I remember happening in Finland, details may be wrong. An uncooperative nut raged on his front yard with a gun in hand (!), shot in the air. No acute need to put him down then and there. So cops got an armored car on site so they could safely talk to the guy, parked it at a short distance, tried to talk him down. No success, nut still has gun, still takes shots. Then a cop managed to sneak to suitable distance from behind while the car was distracting the nut, and shotgunned him in the knee. He went down, dropped the gun so it was safe for the cops to approach and arrest him, and obviously he lived. I think saving a human life is a good use of an hour of cops' time when they can safely do so, and to the cops' credit, in that case they figured out a way. Much better than shooting and killing the guy the instant some kind of legal justification exists.

Similarly, I don't find it likely that a nut with a knife will keep walking and being a threat if his knee is shot out. Nothing special about making a knee shot at those distances, if the nut is stationary.

Now you the taxpayer is on the hook for millions of dollars supporting this disabled criminal for the rest of his life. Way to go.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
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Retort:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbFLY9OIqPA


And I'm not saying I disagree with the use of deadly force. I realize the person you quoted was saying that, but I'm just saying that a couple shotgun shells at semi-close range is way safer than 46 bullets from police officers you are admitting have lowered accuracy because it's a "combat situation".

Taken out of context, I agree with you. Any lower penetration round, or at least fewer rounds total, is going to be better for public safety. It's seeing it against the total backdrop that leads me back to the benefits of current loadouts. In other words, we can't equip everyone based on one incident like this one (or even several). We have to play the numbers and assign the most efficient options possible to cover all scenarios. In my opinion that's carrying a handgun, and having other weapons available when there's time.
 
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