Sander Sassen replies...

[jiffylube1024]

From all of the ATI quotes going around about Sander's benchies setting low expectations, 3dmark scores, etc. ATI are either supremely arrogant (which, given their position, they frankly cannot afford), or R520 will actually be pretty competitive, most likely a bit ahead of the 7800GTX. At least, that's what they're representing in their quotes.

Personally I thought the comment

"it has certainly acted as an appetiser for ATI's next generation launch... and for that I have to say 'Thanks Sander !'"

looks to be kind of letting the cat out of the bag regarding performance being not as disappointing as some expect.

Also, did I miss something, because this thread somehow turned into the "everyone against M0RPH" thread... I thought him and Pabster were both making some valid points.

And until R520 is actually handed out to reputable hardware sites, R520's performance is still a mystery (as are it's final specs).

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: DrZoidberg
LOL. I think Sander Sassen regrets that he caused so much controversy, in the end he has more to lose than ATI.

Personally, I think he relishes the publicity and has used this as a publicity stunt to gain popularity, which he can use as leverage for his next 'deal' with ATI. Maybe that's just me...

All I'm saying is that at the end of the day, if R520's performance turns out to be pretty good, I wouldn't be surprised by seeing a big review of R520 on Hardware Analysis's site and a sugar-coated review...

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: Pabster

Everyone is speculating. I'm giving my opinion. That's what forums are for.

And I'm no nVidiot. I've owned (and still own) several ATi cards.

And you are dead wrong on the last ASSumption. I'd prefer if R520 wiped the floor with 7800GTX. Or even had at least a 10%+ advantage. This would cause 7800 series prices to drop through the rafters. I just don't see it happening.

I don't know if you've been in the Beyond3D thread but the ATI rep, Bania, is playing a little game there. He's layed out some 3DMark05 scores for what current cards get when not limited by CPU, and then asked people to guess about the R520.

6800 Ultra: 5800
X850XT PE: 6300
7800 GTX: 7700

R520XT: ?

Do you think he would be teasing people with a game like that if he didn't have a number on paper that was a significant improvement?

ATI has competent people that do benchmarking with their own cards. Do you think ATI would let their rep make a statement like "clearly dominates the fastest competitive hardware" if they didn't have the numbers to back it up?

His numbers are off. I just did mine yesterday I have a 4400+ (which should act as a 3700+) and a Factory OC 7800GTX (BFG) and I got 7950 (roughly) . So while it is overclocked from Nvidias suggested it is only just barely and do to the performance steps I am not sure if it benifits from tht OC at all. My CPU Single core wise is much slower then the fastest one out so that should easily make up for the faster card. I would think all things fair it would probably hit 8000+ with the fastest CPU.

 

[M0RPH]

Originally posted by: Topweasel

His numbers are off. I just did mine yesterday I have a 4400+ (which should act as a 3700+) and a Factory OC 7800GTX (BFG) and I got 7950 (roughly) . So while it is overclocked from Nvidias suggested it is only just barely and do to the performance steps I am not sure if it benifits from tht OC at all. My CPU Single core wise is much slower then the fastest one out so that should easily make up for the faster card. I would think all things fair it would probably hit 8000+ with the fastest CPU.

Those were only meant to be rough figures.

 

[Insomniak]

DRAMA!!11

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: Topweasel

His numbers are off. I just did mine yesterday I have a 4400+ (which should act as a 3700+) and a Factory OC 7800GTX (BFG) and I got 7950 (roughly) . So while it is overclocked from Nvidias suggested it is only just barely and do to the performance steps I am not sure if it benifits from tht OC at all. My CPU Single core wise is much slower then the fastest one out so that should easily make up for the faster card. I would think all things fair it would probably hit 8000+ with the fastest CPU.

Those were only meant to be rough figures.

Interesting concept!!! BUt they are different so the ATI figures must be lies and false!!! (sarcasm)

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: M0RPH
I don't know if you've been in the Beyond3D thread but the ATI rep, Bania, is playing a little game there. He's layed out some 3DMark05 scores for what current cards get when not limited by CPU, and then asked people to guess about the R520.

6800 Ultra: 5800
X850XT PE: 6300
7800 GTX: 7700

R520XT: ?

Do you think he would be teasing people with a game like that if he didn't have a number on paper that was a significant improvement?

ATI has competent people that do benchmarking with their own cards. Do you think ATI would let their rep make a statement like "clearly dominates the fastest competitive hardware" if they didn't have the numbers to back it up?

That is all fine and dandy, but keep these two things in mind. First, never trust the marketing team. Do you expect ATi (or nVidia, for that matter) to come out before their product launch and admit to a sub-par product or limited availability?

Secondly, will ATi be demonstrating shipping versions of the cards, or the uber-elusive XT/PE style which you might expect to pay 4x retail for on eGay? Judging solely from the fact that R520 has been taped and re-taped no less than 3 times and is a full 6 months behind schedule I'd venture a guess that it might be the latter.

 

[Killrose]

It will be interesting to see final benchies on this thing. Only that is going to prove anything. Sassen better hope the R520 struggles against the 7800GTX in a manner reminecent of his benchmarks, and ATi had better deliver a product clearly superior in said benchmarks.

 

[Avalon]

*reads thread, shrugs, follows insomniak's suit*

DRAMA!!11

 

[coomar]

ATI is getting a lot of attention focusing on the r520 launch because of this

sassen's original benchmarks had so many qualifiers that I find a hard time taking it seriously

ati's complaint about the ASIC engineer is valid, a large part of ati's new line-up is about cross-fire, the vast majority of people running cross-fire are going to run cross-fire on an ATI board, telling ATI your not interested in that and just the r520 is just dumb

it would be similar to a site saying to nvidia that it wants to look at the 6800 series but not the nf4 platform

ATI is not about to release info before their NDA expires, that would set a bad precedent

speculating on my part, I would say the r520's are better than sassen reviewed (though I think they'll end up being within +/- 5% of nvidia's cards) and ATI is playing this smart, it creates buzz for the card and lowers people's expectation, if we had pre-launch reviews of the card doing well and then the NDA expired and performance was less than that, people would be disappointed, now all ATI has to do is beat these lowered expectations

a lawsuit legitimizes sassen in some way and gives this wide-spread media attention, its better for ATI to just have this create buzz over the internet

 

[Duvie]

I can tell you one thing Sassen better add to his review the speeds he did test (now preferrably) so when ATI releases an XT/PE limited edition press laucnh review card that walks on the GTX card 10% and not below by 10% we can see if is numbers are stioll valid in an apples and orange way....Clock speed will help the performance and him not telling us that leaves us to wonder what it was. he is uncertain of final clock speed himself so he should post what the AIBs are currently testing the cards at with current bioses....

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: Duvie
I can tell you one thing Sassen better add to his review the speeds he did test (now preferrably) so when ATI releases an XT/PE limited edition press laucnh review card that walks on the GTX card 10% and not below by 10% we can see if is numbers are stioll valid in an apples and orange way....Clock speed will help the performance and him not telling us that leaves us to wonder what it was. he is uncertain of final clock speed himself so he should post what the AIBs are currently testing the cards at with current bioses....

He states in the introduction:

The R520 architecture will be introduced as the X1800 series, featuring the top-of-the-line Radeon X1800 XT with a 600MHz core clock and 700MHz memory clock

...and then posts results for an 'ATI Radeon X1800 XT', I would think it's safe to assume that the XT tests were run at 600/1400...

 

[coomar]

the way he wrote it, he would be misleading us if it wasn't done at 600/1400

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: Duvie
I can tell you one thing Sassen better add to his review the speeds he did test (now preferrably) so when ATI releases an XT/PE limited edition press laucnh review card that walks on the GTX card 10% and not below by 10% we can see if is numbers are stioll valid in an apples and orange way....Clock speed will help the performance and him not telling us that leaves us to wonder what it was. he is uncertain of final clock speed himself so he should post what the AIBs are currently testing the cards at with current bioses....

He states in the introduction:

The R520 architecture will be introduced as the X1800 series, featuring the top-of-the-line Radeon X1800 XT with a 600MHz core clock and 700MHz memory clock

...and then posts results for an 'ATI Radeon X1800 XT', I would think it's safe to assume that the XT tests were run at 600/1400...

OK that is right...I remember that now just his conclusion stating he was unsure of FINAL clock speeds made me think he didn't state it. From a link I linked eqarlier that is what the inquirer was reporting with talk of a limited edition 700mhz card but that those yields would be low...

 

[xtknight]

Wow, I've never seen this topic before!

Keep all the Sander Sassen whining crap in one thread where it belongs.

 

[Duvie]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Wow, I've never seen this topic before!

Keep all the Sander Sassen whining crap in one thread where it belongs.

It was in "HA benches"...Then the ATI fanatics launched multiple attack threads. Then like a cancer it has morphed to about 5 threads and about 2-3 parody threads....quite cancerous...

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

this is a forum is it not? where people come to discuss and put forward their views on current and up coming hardware. i for one come here to see what others have to say, so yes im interested in pabsters views

He and many others have already stated their dire R520 predictions countless times in other threads. I can only speak for myself but I have a feeling most people here are tired of hearing it. I think the general consensus around here is let's wait for the reliable benchmarks and stop with all the speculation and predictions which seem to be pulled from the nether region.

Statements like "I think it is clear R520 isn't going to do much better than Sander's benchies have shown" are just pure rubbish.

true, i mean i like opinions and speculation because its interesting. sometimes shows how knowledgable people are.

but i think the problem is its being taken too seriously. all any one can do is sit and wait for the release. no one can claim anything.

 

[impemonk]

I didn't spend that much time reading those articles... There weren't enough flashing GIFs to attract my attention and urge me to delve deeper into the world of awesome.

sorry.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: Pabster

Everyone is speculating. I'm giving my opinion. That's what forums are for.

And I'm no nVidiot. I've owned (and still own) several ATi cards.

And you are dead wrong on the last ASSumption. I'd prefer if R520 wiped the floor with 7800GTX. Or even had at least a 10%+ advantage. This would cause 7800 series prices to drop through the rafters. I just don't see it happening.

I don't know if you've been in the Beyond3D thread but the ATI rep, Bania, is playing a little game there. He's layed out some 3DMark05 scores for what current cards get when not limited by CPU, and then asked people to guess about the R520.

6800 Ultra: 5800
X850XT PE: 6300
7800 GTX: 7700

R520XT: ?

Do you think he would be teasing people with a game like that if he didn't have a number on paper that was a significant improvement?

ATI has competent people that do benchmarking with their own cards. Do you think ATI would let their rep make a statement like "clearly dominates the fastest competitive hardware" if they didn't have the numbers to back it up?

and now all of the sudden 3dmarks are the standard to which all performance is measured.... :roll:

exactly CaiNaM :thumbsup:

3d mock is merely a round about guide. its sensitive to vertex shader power as well isnt it? so with 10 (compared to 8) vertex shaders, at 600Mhz (compared to 430mhz) i wonder why ATI would maybe do well in 3Dmock.

plus, i refuse to take benchmarks that originate from the actual company who make the product as word, who can be more biased than the people who make the card?

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: xtknight
Wow, I've never seen this topic before!

Keep all the Sander Sassen whining crap in one thread where it belongs.

LOL, this was funny too... ROFL....

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: M0RPH
I don't know if you've been in the Beyond3D thread but the ATI rep, Bania, is playing a little game there. He's layed out some 3DMark05 scores for what current cards get when not limited by CPU, and then asked people to guess about the R520.

6800 Ultra: 5800
X850XT PE: 6300
7800 GTX: 7700

R520XT: ?

Do you think he would be teasing people with a game like that if he didn't have a number on paper that was a significant improvement?

ATI has competent people that do benchmarking with their own cards. Do you think ATI would let their rep make a statement like "clearly dominates the fastest competitive hardware" if they didn't have the numbers to back it up?

That is all fine and dandy, but keep these two things in mind. First, never trust the marketing team. Do you expect ATi (or nVidia, for that matter) to come out before their product launch and admit to a sub-par product or limited availability?

Secondly, will ATi be demonstrating shipping versions of the cards, or the uber-elusive XT/PE style which you might expect to pay 4x retail for on eGay? Judging solely from the fact that R520 has been taped and re-taped no less than 3 times and is a full 6 months behind schedule I'd venture a guess that it might be the latter.

:laugh: couldnt have said it better man, that made me laugh

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

and now all of the sudden 3dmarks are the standard to which all performance is measured.... :roll:

Of course whichever side wins that race will find it extemely telling. But all the other kettles will object and ..........................

 

[crazydingo]

Originally posted by: Duvie
I can tell you one thing Sassen better add to his review the speeds he did test (now preferrably) so when ATI releases an XT/PE limited edition press laucnh review card that walks on the GTX card 10% and not below by 10% we can see if is numbers are stioll valid in an apples and orange way....Clock speed will help the performance and him not telling us that leaves us to wonder what it was. he is uncertain of final clock speed himself so he should post what the AIBs are currently testing the cards at with current bioses....

Dont worry, Sander has covered all his bases. He wouldnt share his custom demo script so that when R520 is out, people could bench the exact same demo on the exact same configuration and match those numbers and you know it wont add up. (or else why isnt he sharing them?)

 

[Munky]

The point of 3dmock is to show you that the new shiny card you just bought only gets 20 fps in some uber-leet game engine. And with all the SLI GTX users pulling in 99 fps in 3dmock05, I think this calls for a new version.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

jus noticed this too, that dispite this little fued ATI still advertises the X1800XT on his site lol

oh sh!t its not an advert its an article link lol!