Sander Sassen replies...

[Pabster]

I think it is clear R520 isn't going to do much better than Sander's benchies have shown. ATi hasn't done anything to discredit or disqualify the numbers themselves other than making lame "he pulled the numbers out of a hat" or "these numbers don't follow a pattern..." statements.

Pre-production figures or not, we know the silicon has been taped and retaped at least 3 times. There isn't enough time to do it again and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that when the NDA lifts and we see "authentic" benchmarks ATi will have egg (and lots of it) on their faces.

Then again, I could be wrong, and I'll be man enough to admit it.

 

[M0RPH]

Originally posted by: Pabster
I think it is clear R520 isn't going to do much better than Sander's benchies have shown. ATi hasn't done anything to discredit or disqualify the numbers themselves other than making lame "he pulled the numbers out of a hat" or "these numbers don't follow a pattern..." statements.

Pre-production figures or not, we know the silicon has been taped and retaped at least 3 times. There isn't enough time to do it again and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that when the NDA lifts and we see "authentic" benchmarks ATi will have egg (and lots of it) on their faces.

Then again, I could be wrong, and I'll be man enough to admit it.

Pure speculation on your part. Why are you even telling us this? Do you really think we are interested in your guesses at how it will perform? Every other Nvidia fanboy has been repeating this same line for the last month. It's getting tired. Just wait for the product launch please. Nothing is "clear" except that you want the R520 to be a failure so you can gloat over it.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: crazydingo

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: apoppin

Have I been in touch with a few of the AIBs prior to talking to him about the launch event? Well, yes. The condesending tone of his emails however are what motivated one of the AIBs to get me some early scores of the R520 architecture. The article wasn?t meant to smythe ATI, although the introduction outlines why I feel ATI has been rather difficult to work with, that is another story though.

The benchmarks provided are not knowingly false or meant to put ATI?s new architecture in a negative light, but provided AS-IS as they are run on a pre-production sample. In all honesty I?m glad that my article has attracted such massive attention, and that a lot of people, that includes me, are now eagerly awaiting the introduction of this new architecture and are curious as to how it performs. As mentioned the benchmarks we?ve posted were run on pre-production hardware and thus they could be far off from the actual performance of the R520 architecture.

What a load of BS . . . the numbers are less than USELESS.
:roll:

:thumbsdown:

Did he mention pre-production in his first article?

no

uness it is well-hidden, he merely states

So without further ado, let?s take a look at what the R520 architecture is capable of.

and his conclusion is worse:

The benchmarks were run on release candidate drivers for the Radeon X1800 Pro and XT, hence performance is not likely to change much before launch, but final clockspeeds have yet to be determined we've learned, hence it could go either way.

NO mention of PREproduction.

That is one crystal clear example of Sander's back tracking or should I say covering his bases.

Read his new piece and it comes off even worse; provides nothing new to prove his argument, brings his girlfriend matters into it (for sympathy) and what not ..

If anyone still think Sander did the right thing by posting unverified benches (like he claims they were) then that is against his own ethics (see his letter to Tom). Now why would some one go against one's own ethics ... you get the point.

Why would anyone go against their own ethics? It is called sin or a mistake... People do it all the time. Have you ever lied to someone? Have you ever lashed out at someone when you were angry and had to apoligize later? That is an example of going against your own ethics. When people get angry, jealous etc... they go against their own ethics. It is human nature to make mistakes and do wrong.

Asside from that, I have read the entire article and emails and I feel Sanders is justified. He does a great job on the defence and suppplies us with the information.

 

[jiffylube1024]

This is just juvenile across the board. I'm actually amazed that ATI has issued a response, but I guess this merits one.

Sander's rebuttal, although well written, clearly has holes in it. The biggest one is saying that he declined the Crossfire launch for "personal, family reasons." ATI's reaction was not that of someone pulling out for "personal, family reasons" (which he never explains and seems to want us to forget). He's obviously either lying or obfuscating the truth, because his reaction, too was not that of someone who was innocent.

Then there was the silly threat about making the stock price dip. Here's a sure sign that an internet writer's ego has gone to his head: threatening a massive company with a negative/false article. This may be defensible because it was done by a 'third party,' but there goes his credibility. Isn't is standard practise in the online testing world to not compare benchmarks done by a third party on a replicated test system to ones done by yourself? We can only consider the results null and void because they weren't done on the same test system, just a similar one done by someone else in another location.

To me, this looks like two guys butting heads and the little guy trying to threaten the big company to get his way. Obviously the big company got their way (they don't need this Sander Sassen clown), and he's been put in his place. Banning Sander from ATI information for 6 months seems like a generous offer considering his behaviour.

Also, Sander's blanket statement that 'ATI will only provide cards to companies who favour them' is laughable... I'm sure Anandtech has something to say about that...

Originally posted by: g3pro

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: g3pro
The hostility came from ATi when Sasser published an ATi IQ article which was critical of ATi.

Oh please. There were no "hostilities", besides ATI not having room for him at their R520 launch party. It's only Sander that perceives it as hostility and tries to portray himself as a martyr.

Sander was considered a highly reputable source for ATi when he was praising them. That's why he was the only journalist invited to talk to some people in Prague on behalf of ATi or something. Why did the tone change? Because Sander posted an article critical of ATi. ATi didn't like anything not sucking its dick, so it (Andrew) banned Sander from future ATi events.

How can you defend such tactics? You use your excuses and accusations to slander Sander, but what you're doing is railing against a free and balanced press. :thumbsdown:

How about you actually read the article? Even your golden boy Sander describes the situation [/b]much[/b] differently. Open your mind to articles that are not just black and white.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: Pabster
I think it is clear R520 isn't going to do much better than Sander's benchies have shown. ATi hasn't done anything to discredit or disqualify the numbers themselves other than making lame "he pulled the numbers out of a hat" or "these numbers don't follow a pattern..." statements.

Pre-production figures or not, we know the silicon has been taped and retaped at least 3 times. There isn't enough time to do it again and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that when the NDA lifts and we see "authentic" benchmarks ATi will have egg (and lots of it) on their faces.

Then again, I could be wrong, and I'll be man enough to admit it.

Pure speculation on your part. Why are you even telling us this? Do you really think we are interested in your guesses at how it will perform? Every other Nvidia fanboy has been repeating this same line for the last month. It's getting tired. Just wait for the product launch please. Nothing is "clear" except that you want the R520 to be a failure so you can gloat over it.

I am certainly more interested in what Pabster says than I am interested in hearing you make an obvious claim such as

Pure speculation on your part

This is a public forum and some people appreciate what others have to say... Just because you are not interested does not mean you can claim

Do you really think we are interested in your guesses at how it will perform?

You do not speak for everyone on this forum, is that clear?

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: M0RPH
Pure speculation on your part. Why are you even telling us this? Do you really think we are interested in your guesses at how it will perform? Every other Nvidia fanboy has been repeating this same line for the last month. It's getting tired. Just wait for the product launch please. Nothing is "clear" except that you want the R520 to be a failure so you can gloat over it.

Everyone is speculating. I'm giving my opinion. That's what forums are for.

And I'm no nVidiot. I've owned (and still own) several ATi cards.

And you are dead wrong on the last ASSumption. I'd prefer if R520 wiped the floor with 7800GTX. Or even had at least a 10%+ advantage. This would cause 7800 series prices to drop through the rafters. I just don't see it happening.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: M0RPH
Pure speculation on your part. Why are you even telling us this? Do you really think we are interested in your guesses at how it will perform? Every other Nvidia fanboy has been repeating this same line for the last month. It's getting tired. Just wait for the product launch please. Nothing is "clear" except that you want the R520 to be a failure so you can gloat over it.

Everyone is speculating. I'm giving my opinion. That's what forums are for.

And I'm no nVidiot. I've owned (and still own) several ATi cards.

And you are dead wrong on the last ASSumption. I'd prefer if R520 wiped the floor with 7800GTX. Or even had at least a 10%+ advantage. This would cause 7800 series prices to drop through the rafters. I just don't see it happening.

QFT! :thumbsup:

 

[5150Joker]

Even if his benchmarks happen to be real, I'm getting tired of this assclown.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: Pabster
I think it is clear R520 isn't going to do much better than Sander's benchies have shown. ATi hasn't done anything to discredit or disqualify the numbers themselves other than making lame "he pulled the numbers out of a hat" or "these numbers don't follow a pattern..." statements.

Pre-production figures or not, we know the silicon has been taped and retaped at least 3 times. There isn't enough time to do it again and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that when the NDA lifts and we see "authentic" benchmarks ATi will have egg (and lots of it) on their faces.

Then again, I could be wrong, and I'll be man enough to admit it.

Pure speculation on your part. Why are you even telling us this? Do you really think we are interested in your guesses at how it will perform? Every other Nvidia fanboy has been repeating this same line for the last month. It's getting tired. Just wait for the product launch please. Nothing is "clear" except that you want the R520 to be a failure so you can gloat over it.

this is a forum is it not? where people come to discuss and put forward their views on current and up coming hardware. i for one come here to see what others have to say, so yes im interested in pabsters views, more so than your touch paper material

 

[crazydingo]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Why would anyone go against their own ethics? It is called sin or a mistake... People do it all the time. Have you ever lied to someone? Have you ever lashed out at someone when you were angry and had to apoligize later? That is an example of going against your own ethics. When people get angry, jealous etc... they go against their own ethics. It is human nature to make mistakes and do wrong.

Yes I have lashed out at people but not on a global scale making a fool of myself in the process. There is a big difference.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: Pabster
I think it is clear R520 isn't going to do much better than Sander's benchies have shown. ATi hasn't done anything to discredit or disqualify the numbers themselves other than making lame "he pulled the numbers out of a hat" or "these numbers don't follow a pattern..." statements.

Pre-production figures or not, we know the silicon has been taped and retaped at least 3 times. There isn't enough time to do it again and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that when the NDA lifts and we see "authentic" benchmarks ATi will have egg (and lots of it) on their faces.

Then again, I could be wrong, and I'll be man enough to admit it.

Pure speculation on your part. Why are you even telling us this? Do you really think we are interested in your guesses at how it will perform? Every other Nvidia fanboy has been repeating this same line for the last month. It's getting tired. Just wait for the product launch please. Nothing is "clear" except that you want the R520 to be a failure so you can gloat over it.

It would seem by your very attitude towards anyone who puts any sort of merit to the benches, that you would like to see the exact opposite come true. It is extremely apparent. Pot > Kettle > Black. And I think it's a little too far gone for you to deny it. So please don't try.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: crazydingo

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Why would anyone go against their own ethics? It is called sin or a mistake... People do it all the time. Have you ever lied to someone? Have you ever lashed out at someone when you were angry and had to apoligize later? That is an example of going against your own ethics. When people get angry, jealous etc... they go against their own ethics. It is human nature to make mistakes and do wrong.

Yes I have lashed out at people but not on a global scale making a fool of myself in the process. There is a big difference.

There is no difference. Lashing out is what it is no matter how many, or few, people you address. No comment on the "fool" thing.

 

[M0RPH]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

this is a forum is it not? where people come to discuss and put forward their views on current and up coming hardware. i for one come here to see what others have to say, so yes im interested in pabsters views

He and many others have already stated their dire R520 predictions countless times in other threads. I can only speak for myself but I have a feeling most people here are tired of hearing it. I think the general consensus around here is let's wait for the reliable benchmarks and stop with all the speculation and predictions which seem to be pulled from the nether region.

Statements like "I think it is clear R520 isn't going to do much better than Sander's benchies have shown" are just pure rubbish.

 

[Overgloc]

Originally posted by: sandorski
I'm not even going to click on the link and give the guy a hit.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

this is a forum is it not? where people come to discuss and put forward their views on current and up coming hardware. i for one come here to see what others have to say, so yes im interested in pabsters views

He and many others have already stated their dire R520 predictions countless times in other threads. I can only speak for myself but I have a feeling most people here are tired of hearing it. I think the general consensus around here is let's wait for the reliable benchmarks and stop with all the speculation and predictions which seem to be pulled from the nether region.

Statements like "I think it is clear R520 isn't going to do much better than Sander's benchies have shown" are just pure rubbish.

Actually, I am pretty sure it is quite the opposite... It is my opinion that people are tired of you posting here. You and a handful of others just come here to cause trouble. That has been my oberservation.


Edit ** in addition, I fail to see what is rubbish about Pabster's comment. It is an opinion and just that. I think it is you that has the problem. It is sad when people invest their self esteem in a company/product.

 

[M0RPH]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Actually, I am pretty sure it is quite the opposite... It is my opinion that people are tired of you posting here. You and a handful of others just come here to cause trouble. That has been my oberservation.

You know, I don't have the slightest concern for what you think of me. Is that clear?

and

You do not speak for everyone on this forum, is that clear? (sound familiar?)

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Actually, I am pretty sure it is quite the opposite... It is my opinion that people are tired of you posting here. You and a handful of others just come here to cause trouble. That has been my oberservation.

You know, I don't have the slightest concern for what you think of me. Is that clear?

and

You do not speak for everyone on this forum, is that clear? (sound familiar?)

The difference is that I stated mine as an opinion and you tried to state yours as a fact. Therefore, I simply said it is my opinion that people are tired of you. You said that people are tired of Pabster. The difference obviously is that you don't know and didn't state it as an opinion, but rather, a fact.

 

[Insomniak]

DRAMA!!11

 

[reever]

You and a handful of others just come here to cause trouble.

Since when has creating a discussion with TWO sides considered "causing trouble"? If you want everybody to agree with you, have the same opinions and relentlessly bash companies without any argument or opinions stating the opposite, you're on the wrong forum.

It is extremely apparent. Pot > Kettle > Black

Then I guess everybody is a hypocrite, or just people who have differing opinions then you, but they prbably really don't care. Whether you believe the article or don't, you're still not right until the card is released, so please save it when that actually happens. But hey, if it turns out that you're right then you deserve an apology, but I can tell you right now you're never going to get one, and vice versa if you are wrong, you're never going to admit it either.

 

[M0RPH]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Everyone is speculating. I'm giving my opinion. That's what forums are for.

And I'm no nVidiot. I've owned (and still own) several ATi cards.

And you are dead wrong on the last ASSumption. I'd prefer if R520 wiped the floor with 7800GTX. Or even had at least a 10%+ advantage. This would cause 7800 series prices to drop through the rafters. I just don't see it happening.

I don't know if you've been in the Beyond3D thread but the ATI rep, Bania, is playing a little game there. He's layed out some 3DMark05 scores for what current cards get when not limited by CPU, and then asked people to guess about the R520.

6800 Ultra: 5800
X850XT PE: 6300
7800 GTX: 7700

R520XT: ?

Do you think he would be teasing people with a game like that if he didn't have a number on paper that was a significant improvement?

ATI has competent people that do benchmarking with their own cards. Do you think ATI would let their rep make a statement like "clearly dominates the fastest competitive hardware" if they didn't have the numbers to back it up?

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: reever

You and a handful of others just come here to cause trouble.

Since when has creating a discussion with TWO sides considered "causing trouble"? If you want everybody to agree with you, have the same opinions and relentlessly bash companies without any argument or opinions stating the opposite, you're on the wrong forum.

It is extremely apparent. Pot > Kettle > Black

Then I guess everybody is a hypocrite, or just people who have differing opinions then you, but they prbably really don't care. Whether you believe the article or don't, you're still not right until the card is released, so please save it when that actually happens.

Just look who showed up! Morph's bunk bed buddy. Reever, before you post, please, I beg you to study the difference between an acceptable conversation and an unnacaptable one. Meaning, the attitude and tones of the two people discussing. Because, I believe that you have put a spin on your post, just like the media does.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: Pabster

Everyone is speculating. I'm giving my opinion. That's what forums are for.

And I'm no nVidiot. I've owned (and still own) several ATi cards.

And you are dead wrong on the last ASSumption. I'd prefer if R520 wiped the floor with 7800GTX. Or even had at least a 10%+ advantage. This would cause 7800 series prices to drop through the rafters. I just don't see it happening.

I don't know if you've been in the Beyond3D thread but the ATI rep, Bania, is playing a little game there. He's layed out some 3DMark05 scores for what current cards get when not limited by CPU, and then asked people to guess about the R520.

6800 Ultra: 5800
X850XT PE: 6300
7800 GTX: 7700

R520XT: ?

Do you think he would be teasing people with a game like that if he didn't have a number on paper that was a significant improvement?

ATI has competent people that do benchmarking with their own cards. Do you think ATI would let their rep make a statement like "clearly dominates the fastest competitive hardware" if they didn't have the numbers to back it up?

and now all of the sudden 3dmarks are the standard to which all performance is measured.... :roll:

 

[ArchAngel777]

:thumbsup:

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: Pabster

Everyone is speculating. I'm giving my opinion. That's what forums are for.

And I'm no nVidiot. I've owned (and still own) several ATi cards.

And you are dead wrong on the last ASSumption. I'd prefer if R520 wiped the floor with 7800GTX. Or even had at least a 10%+ advantage. This would cause 7800 series prices to drop through the rafters. I just don't see it happening.

I don't know if you've been in the Beyond3D thread but the ATI rep, Bania, is playing a little game there. He's layed out some 3DMark05 scores for what current cards get when not limited by CPU, and then asked people to guess about the R520.

6800 Ultra: 5800
X850XT PE: 6300
7800 GTX: 7700

R520XT: ?

Do you think he would be teasing people with a game like that if he didn't have a number on paper that was a significant improvement?

ATI has competent people that do benchmarking with their own cards. Do you think ATI would let their rep make a statement like "clearly dominates the fastest competitive hardware" if they didn't have the numbers to back it up?

and now all of the sudden 3dmarks are the standard to which all performance is measured.... :roll:

LOL, good one...

 

[fierydemise]

Wow this thread has gotten off topic (not all that surprising) this was supposed to be about Sander's response not about whether or not you think his "benchmarks" are correct there are plenty of other threads to go flame each other based on pure speculation, go there leave one haven of mildly intelligent conversation for those of us who are bored with the constant flame wars.

 

[DrZoidberg]

LOL. I think Sander Sassen regrets that he caused so much controversy, in the end he has more to lose than ATI.

When I installed my ASUS SLI, 3200+ Venice system, I used a helpful article on Hardwareanalysis on what bios settings to put, how to flash the BIOS, importance of updating windows sp2 before installing chipset drivers etc.

link
Anyway my system is rock stable, happy with it since i got it. I know some people are saying like Sander's site is small, who is he, most hardware sites are small compared to Anandtech anyway. Its not like his site is some personal website. The fact is ATI and other hardware companies bother sending emails and review hardware for his site.

I feel that the benchmarks SS put are correct for pre-production boards and after this
b!tch fight, ATI would not want to be seen as wrong. They could very easily make the default clocks 5% higher, make their driver team work harder to release significantly better drivers. End result, benchmarks for r520 gets better, equal 7800gtx, maybe lower MSRP from $600 to $550. SS benchmarks and conclusion that r520 is expensive will look wrong and hes left with pie in his face.

We do want independant press, like most of us dont like Toms Hardware site cause it seems like they're paid by intel to write favourable articles e.g. intel/amd dual core stress test. I think SS has bitten more than he can chew.