Sane use-case for Kaveri?

[lagokc]

Back in 2012 AMD released a pair of FirePro versions of its Trinity APUs, the A300 and A320. As far as I can tell these were pretty hard to find in the West, though Sapphire did sell them packaged with a motherboard.

Kaveri also will have a pair of FirePro A Series parts:
Device ID: 1310 (65w) and 1311 (95w)

Are these also going to be difficult to find? It seems as though Kaveri would be very competitive with the v3900 (480 stream processors, 650mhz core, 128-bit DDR3 memory).

In theory the 65w part could make a nice small form factor workstation for Solidworks.

 

[Arkaign]

It's a terrible match for Solidworks really. We're talking a piece of software that STARTS at $4,000.

The other part of the equation is that Solidworks, despite having some multithreaded capabilities, is HEAVILY dependent on single-threaded performance. IOW, an i3 @ 3+Ghz will significantly outperform a 12-core 2Ghz Xeon for example in the majority of SW tasks. AutoCAD has the same kind of experience with CPUs.

So yeah, a SW system ideally is something like a 4770, 32GB DDR3, and a midrange discrete GPU. All of which will pale in comparison to even the 'standard' edition SW license cost.

 

[Jodell88]

Software where OpenCL is used heavily.

 

[Arkaign]

This is incredibly helpful if you're thinking about building something for SW (all of this still applies, just substitute current iterations for each component) :

http://blog.design-point.com/blog/2012/march/hardware-requirements-for-solidworks.aspx#.UxTd3M6GpaQ

 

[lagokc]

This is incredibly helpful if you're thinking about building something for SW (all of this still applies, just substitute current iterations for each component) :

http://blog.design-point.com/blog/2012/march/hardware-requirements-for-solidworks.aspx#.UxTd3M6GpaQ

Thanks, that was very helpful. I do see this in your link though:

"Do not try to run Solidworks with a gaming card (Geforce or Radeon) as you will experience graphical display issues with these cards. The drivers are different for these cards and do not handle CAD programs accurately. When your dimensions don't show on a model when using these cards, please don't blame us. The gaming cards drivers throttle the Open GL performance in Solidworks (I don't like it either). A technically "better" gaming card will run Solidworks worse than a low end CAD video card. This has been benchmarked and proven time and time again among all gaming cards."

And I've also seen these benchmarks:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/firepro-v3900-review-benchmark,3153-9.html


If my drawings are simple enough that they don't tax Kaveri's CPU too much wouldn't the FirePro APU make sense if desk space was limited?

 

[mrmt]

If my drawings are simple enough that they don't tax Kaveri's CPU too much wouldn't the FirePro APU make sense if desk space was limited?

You would still need a monitor on your desk, so if you are that space constrained, why not go for a mobile workstation?

In any case, I can't really see a case for Kaveri here. Maybe for a student running trial/pirated versions of Solidworks, then Kaveri Firepro might be worth something, but for everyone else, I can't.

 

[erunion]

There are small-ish itx cases that fit a discrete card.

I just ordered a Silverstone ft03mini for my wife.

 

[lagokc]

why not go for a mobile workstation?

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops...w-series/w540/

Ok good point that is hot. :wub:

 

[mrmt]

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops...w-series/w540/

Ok good point that is hot. :wub:

Yes, far better. Just swap the main disk for a 256gb ssd and the optical drive for a 1tb hard disk and you are good to go. Add a dual band wifi and you'll stay under $1700.

 

[NTMBK]

A mobile Kaveri with Firepro drivers could be an interesting choice for mobile workstations, actually- if anyone ever actually makes one.

 

[mrmt]

A mobile Kaveri with Firepro drivers could be an interesting choice for extremely low budget mobile workstations, actually- if anyone ever actually makes one.

FTFY. Workstations are usually so expensive (better monitors, fast storage, huge amounts of RAM, and extremely expensive software packages) that I can't see the point in saving some hundreds bucks in the processor, and medium level CAD cards aren't that expensive.

 

[NTMBK]

FTFY. Workstations are usually so expensive (better monitors, fast storage, huge amounts of RAM, and extremely expensive software packages) that I can't see the point in saving some hundreds bucks in the processor, and medium level CAD cards aren't that expensive.

Well yes, that was kind of implied by the fact that it's using Kaveri and not a massive discrete mobile Quadro But bringing the ability to get validated pro drivers down to a lower cost level isn't a bad thing. It could be an interesting niche (obviously not replacing the Haswell-quad-and-GK104-Quadro-godbox market). A cheap machine with validated drivers for demonstrating to customers on-the-go (or taking to meetings), leaving the heavy duty hardware sat at your desk. Just a thought.

EDIT: Interestingly, the lowest end Dell mobile workstations use a dual core Intel and a Firepro M4000: http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/precision-m4700/fs The M4000 is good old Cape Verde in a mobile guise with professional drivers, so there's not much in the way of performance difference between that and Kaveri. And Kaveri has access to all of the laptop's memory, while the M4000 is limited to 1GB VRAM- a Kaveri Firepro APU with 8GB RAM could be a lot better for workloads needing lots of VRAM. Of course, it would be even better if Kaveri had GDDR5 support, but there's not much to be done about that.

 

[PPB]

FTFY. Workstations are usually so expensive (better monitors, fast storage, huge amounts of RAM, and extremely expensive software packages) that I can't see the point in saving some hundreds bucks in the processor, and medium level CAD cards aren't that expensive.

ROFL people still think CAD is so demanding? This isnt late 1990's anymore.


You can totally make a CAD machine with a Kaveri plus modded firepro drivers. Whoever is doing BIM/CAD work and thinks you need to shell 500+ on the CPU is doing it wrong.

AutoCAD 2014 license is 4+ Grand, yet I bet it isnt any more demanding than 2012 is, and you can run that one even on the lowest SB pentium systems. So that absurd "if the piece of software is worth XXX bucks, you at least must spend YYY on the hardware" is only for people that hasnt even touched that kind of software with a 10 ft pole.

(Not even bringing cracked CAD software into the discussion, for that not only would make that absurd kind of logic even more hilarous, it would wake the holier than thou brigade on this subforum up and the pitchforks and torchs would start lining up).

PS: The BIM/3D rendering front can be a little more demanding, but for that kind of software good 3D viewport performance is crucial. Even tho CAD software might sport 3D modeling tools, it still is such an aberration even on late Autocad versions that I just leave it as pure 2D drawing solution.

PS2: Now that I remember, I tried sometime ago how my ancient notebook with T2080 Pentium (Core Duo) and integrated graphics (GMA 950 makes HD 4xxx iGPs look high end discrete solutions) with AutoCAD 2012, it works just fine doing 2D drawings. I even made 2008 version work on a Atom N450, only to show that at least for 2D drawing, you dont really need powerful workstations, but good power users behind it

 

[PG]

Gaming cards aren't horrible for Solidworks and if you google you can find a nifty little program called Realhack that will give you Realview with just a few clicks. Works fine even with SolidWorks 2014. Just get the realhack 3.7 version for 2014.

As others have stated single threaded performance is king in Solidworks, but Kaveri will do the job. I have Solidworks on a 7850K right now with Solidworks 2014 with the realhack thing and it's fine. It's not going to match an i5 or probably even an i3 but I can get work done no problem and it was cheaper than intel due to Micro Center bundle pricing. The cpu probably is faster at processing than my brain. I'm not waiting for anything to get done. Of course I'm not working with massive assemblies or anything like that either. This is a home computer for me, not work, and I'm not making money from it so keep that in perspective.

 

[Abwx]

A mobile Kaveri with Firepro drivers could be an interesting choice for mobile workstations, actually- if anyone ever actually makes one.

There was Trinity/Richland based fire pro APUs but so far i ve never saw a commercial offering through the few sites i usualy browse, i guess that it s a niche market in some low incomes markets but as you point it a certified mobile APU would be a welcomed offering for a lot of students living in emerging countries, heck even in devellopped countries it would still
be a big sale given theses people have generaly limited means.

 

[Enigmoid]

ROFL people still think CAD is so demanding? This isnt late 1990's anymore.


You can totally make a CAD machine with a Kaveri plus modded firepro drivers. Whoever is doing BIM/CAD work and thinks you need to shell 500+ on the CPU is doing it wrong.

AutoCAD 2014 license is 4+ Grand, yet I bet it isnt any more demanding than 2012 is, and you can run that one even on the lowest SB pentium systems. So that absurd "if the piece of software is worth XXX bucks, you at least must spend YYY on the hardware" is only for people that hasnt even touched that kind of software with a 10 ft pole.

(Not even bringing cracked CAD software into the discussion, for that not only would make that absurd kind of logic even more hilarous, it would wake the holier than thou brigade on this subforum up and the pitchforks and torchs would start lining up).

PS: The BIM/3D rendering front can be a little more demanding, but for that kind of software good 3D viewport performance is crucial. Even tho CAD software might sport 3D modeling tools, it still is such an aberration even on late Autocad versions that I just leave it as pure 2D drawing solution.

PS2: Now that I remember, I tried sometime ago how my ancient notebook with T2080 Pentium (Core Duo) and integrated graphics (GMA 950 makes HD 4xxx iGPs look high end discrete solutions) with AutoCAD 2012, it works just fine doing 2D drawings. I even made 2008 version work on a Atom N450, only to show that at least for 2D drawing, you dont really need powerful workstations, but good power users behind it

AutoCAD in particular uses DX now. There are no real benefits for a professional grade GPU.

A decent dgpu + a cpu with high singlethread performance will be the way to go.

 

[lagokc]

PS2: Now that I remember, I tried sometime ago how my ancient notebook with T2080 Pentium (Core Duo) and integrated graphics (GMA 950 makes HD 4xxx iGPs look high end discrete solutions) with AutoCAD 2012, it works just fine doing 2D drawings. I even made 2008 version work on a Atom N450, only to show that at least for 2D drawing, you dont really need powerful workstations, but good power users behind it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tok_0iJzayE

I guess that explains this Solidworks demonstration running on a pitifully underpowered prototype AMD C-50 with Firepro drivers (1.0 GHz dual-core AMD Bobcat).

The framerate doesn't look great when he rotates the model but it's surprising it runs that well.

 

[mrmt]

ROFL people still think CAD is so demanding? This isnt late 1990's anymore.

(...)

PS: The BIM/3D rendering front can be a little more demanding, but for that kind of software good 3D viewport performance is crucial. Even tho CAD software might sport 3D modeling tools, it still is such an aberration even on late Autocad versions that I just leave it as pure 2D drawing solution.

What you say it's an aberration is simply SOP at our company. We have to build 3D models of every project we build (not always Autocad of course), both the construction and process elements and we have 3D models of every one of our industrial facilities. The seismic data DB And yes, that means expensive workstations with very expensive i7/Xeon processors and top of the line Quadro cards (we don't even consider Firepro cards). And yes, 3D modelling has an excellent ROI for us, all costs considered.

 

[mrmt]

AutoCAD in particular uses DX now. There are no real benefits for a professional grade GPU.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/geforce-gtx-780-ti-review-benchmarks,3663-11.html

It doesn’t really look like the switch from OpenGL to DirectX is becoming a trend, since Autodesk is the only major company making this drastic change. Of course, the advantage of DirectX for end-users is that they can do without specialized workstation cards, so long as they’re willing to forgo the drivers optimized for specific applications, greater compute performance, and so on.

DirectX’s disadvantage is its use of single-precision coordinates, which can easily lead to display errors in complex models, resulting in things like the feared push-through effect of surfaces right behind another surface.

It's not for everyone.

 

[Arkaign]

It's not for everyone.

That's absolutely correct.

I have no doubt that it's largely artificial segmentation (in fact, this was the rule previously), but that's just the way it is. Nvidia and AMD protect their huge margins on Quadro/FirePro by legitimately separating the feature sets available to software, and it makes a gigantic difference when working with stuff like Solidworks. Even raw benchmarks don't tell the whole story (and that was just a DX bench), as the times are meaningless if there's errors in the modeling result.

It's not science fiction, there are countless threads with the results of using non-pro GPUs with professional apps that recommend workstation-class GPUs.

 

[Enigmoid]

It's not for everyone.

Very true. However my point still stands. Its certaintly for you if you are on such a budget.

 

[Abwx]

Very true. However my point still stands. Its certaintly for you if you are on such a budget.

The limitation mentioned above render your budget option pointless , no one in his right mind would use a configuration that can produce random errors in calculations , that s not serious for one who wants to be engineer so we re back at the start of the thread , that is , a certified budget system that work for any professional soft , i guess that the Kaveri based Fire Pro will remain the only practical and economical solution assuming such an offering exist.

 

[mrmt]

Very true. However my point still stands. Its certaintly for you if you are on such a budget.

There are projects that actually need the higher precision of the Quadro cards, and projects that are expensive enough to managers not wanting to risk a wrong calculation because they don't want to cough a few thousands of dollars in workstation cards. In these cases, DirectX and single-coordinates calculations are a no-go. Your point stands only if your project is simple enough to not require this kind of precision. If the project does, no matter how faster DirectX cards are, it won't matter because they aren't reliable enough.

Since the OP was talking about Solidworks, I assume that he actually needed the software. And if he needs, I'd consider the wisdom of choosing a $4.000 piece of software if he could not afford reasonable hardware to run the software. There are cheaper, simpler software on the market than Solidworks for people on budget.

 

[Enigmoid]

The limitation mentioned above render your budget option pointless , no one in his right mind would use a configuration that can produce random errors in calculations , that s not serious for one who wants to be engineer so we re back at the start of the thread , that is , a certified budget system that work for any professional soft , i guess that the Kaveri based Fire Pro will remain the only practical and economical solution assuming such an offering exist.

No one in their right mind buys software costing $4000 and a $800 system. If you are doing this then you will already be accepting the compromises. In such a APu system mainly the weak CPU. Not to mention that a lot of these apps are bandwidth hungry and in the case of mobile limited to slow ram.

There are projects that actually need the higher precision of the Quadro cards, and projects that are expensive enough to managers not wanting to risk a wrong calculation because they don't want to cough a few thousands of dollars in workstation cards. In these cases, DirectX and single-coordinates calculations are a no-go. Your point stands only if your project is simple enough to not require this kind of precision. If the project does, no matter how faster DirectX cards are, it won't matter because they aren't reliable enough.

Since the OP was talking about Solidworks, I assume that he actually needed the software. And if he needs, I'd consider the wisdom of choosing a $4.000 piece of software if he could not afford reasonable hardware to run the software. There are cheaper, simpler software on the market than Solidworks for people on budget.

Any project that big will have the budget for a proper system..

The only people who would really be using such a configuration are students or those playing around for fun, neither of which demand that kind of accuracy.

 

[mrmt]

Any project that big will have the budget for a proper system..

Which is pretty much every project regardless of the sector. In the oil industry the design stage will cost between 5% and 15% of the total project costs, so any upstream (extract oil) will have costs high enough to make Quadro cards costs peanuts. Most downstream (getting gasoline to the pump) projects fall in the same case, unless you count small stuff like gas station, which are extremely simple in any case.

In fact, in the construction industry in general the engineers working on the design are the real costs. A $5.000 workstation will cost more or less $200 per month for two years, while a junior engineer will cost around $5.000 per month once taxes are included. Using these numbers, even the humblest home construction number is able to build a descent workstation if it finds necessary.