Save the children? Yes? No?

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: BoberFett
I'm sure I'll be jumped on for saying this, but perhaps it's time to start thinking about not saving every person on the planet. There are 6.5 billion people on this planet, it's not like we're on the brink of extinction. Are those that can't save themselves worth saving? What is the purpose in sustaining a population whose only contribution to humanity will be to procreate thereby creating another group of people who needs to be saved?

Flame away.

Edit: To Capt Caveman's point, unless a change is made in those conditions, no change will be made at all. You can save all the children you want and they'll grow up in that same system that caused them to starve in the first place. If the parents of those children are powerless to change the system then so too will the children.

Starving people, of course, are generally ineffective at fomenting political or social change when their daily life is focused entirely on trying to find food or a mud cake to eat.

I think your expectations are a little lofty and idealistic.

Really? I'd think starving people would be ripe for unrest. It's the fat and happy ones who have no interest in change.

You don't really understand what is going on in Haiti or how it got there do you?

BTW, for all of you out there saying it is unchangeable and that they could better themselves... just remember that a lot of the time Western Industrialized countries are the ones that went in, took over their country, exploited it, and then left it fucked. Many nations that now face starvation was subsisting fine before we decided to exploit their natural resources, labor pools, or simply interfere in their politics for no good reason. It is not shocking that many of you are so callous and so utterly removed from the reality of the rest of the world.

Contraception? Really? How do you think that works out in a poor and uneducated country? Have any of you ever even been a non-Industrialized nation before?

There is no denying that some of Haiti's problems are self-inflicted, but the majority of it is not. They cannot help that their lands are susceptible to hurricanes or that the topsoil has been washed away.

Most of you against this are arguing theory instead of reality. Join the real world.

Your are speaking to people that have no world view. I will comment on Sudan,Egypt,Ethiopia,Yemen. These 4 places are VERY POOR. It has a LOT to do with the amount Arable land and previous agricultural practices. IF you cannot grow food on a regular basis you will starve if you dont have the money to import it.

Yes corruption is a large issue but there is corruption all around the world! A bigger problem would be laws regarding property rights and property that cannot be converted into REAL assets because these laws have not been developed well enough to record ownership. And it has nothing to do with the people. There is nothing naturally inferior about the populations of developed nations. Egypt gave us the Pyramids. Sudan gave us about 3 times MORE Pyramids. Ethiopia and Yemen have had their great civilizations as well. All before anything existed in the West. So the people are fine. These countries need TRADE.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Vic
Without children the world ends.

No it doesn't.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: beyoku

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: BoberFett
I'm sure I'll be jumped on for saying this, but perhaps it's time to start thinking about not saving every person on the planet. There are 6.5 billion people on this planet, it's not like we're on the brink of extinction. Are those that can't save themselves worth saving? What is the purpose in sustaining a population whose only contribution to humanity will be to procreate thereby creating another group of people who needs to be saved?

Flame away.

Edit: To Capt Caveman's point, unless a change is made in those conditions, no change will be made at all. You can save all the children you want and they'll grow up in that same system that caused them to starve in the first place. If the parents of those children are powerless to change the system then so too will the children.

Starving people, of course, are generally ineffective at fomenting political or social change when their daily life is focused entirely on trying to find food or a mud cake to eat.

I think your expectations are a little lofty and idealistic.

Really? I'd think starving people would be ripe for unrest. It's the fat and happy ones who have no interest in change.

You don't really understand what is going on in Haiti or how it got there do you?

BTW, for all of you out there saying it is unchangeable and that they could better themselves... just remember that a lot of the time Western Industrialized countries are the ones that went in, took over their country, exploited it, and then left it fucked. Many nations that now face starvation was subsisting fine before we decided to exploit their natural resources, labor pools, or simply interfere in their politics for no good reason. It is not shocking that many of you are so callous and so utterly removed from the reality of the rest of the world.

Contraception? Really? How do you think that works out in a poor and uneducated country? Have any of you ever even been a non-Industrialized nation before?

There is no denying that some of Haiti's problems are self-inflicted, but the majority of it is not. They cannot help that their lands are susceptible to hurricanes or that the topsoil has been washed away.

Most of you against this are arguing theory instead of reality. Join the real world.

Your are speaking to people that have no world view. I will comment on Sudan,Egypt,Ethiopia,Yemen. These 4 places are VERY POOR. It has a LOT to do with the amount Arable land and previous agricultural practices. IF you cannot grow food on a regular basis you will starve if you dont have the money to import it.

Yes corruption is a large issue but there is corruption all around the world! A bigger problem would be laws regarding property rights and property that cannot be converted into REAL assets because these laws have not been developed well enough to record ownership. And it has nothing to do with the people. There is nothing naturally inferior about the populations of developed nations. Egypt gave us the Pyramids. Sudan gave us about 3 times MORE Pyramids. Ethiopia and Yemen have had their great civilizations as well. All before anything existed in the West. So the people are fine. These countries need TRADE.

How does handout = trade?

In fact, do a little reading sparky, before you start talking about others lack of "world view." If you were intelligent at all you'd understand that charity to third world nations can significantly damage their trade. How is a local farmer going to compete with FREE FOOD. Good luck building any kind of economy when every time you try to sell your goods to your neighbor, they're already sitting there with a scoop of American leftovers.

 

[beyoku]

Re-Read what i said: "These Countries Needs TRADE"
I didn't say anything about handouts nor did I say handouts = Trade.
I am paraphrasing a Ghanaian President who said "We need Trade, NOT Aid."
We are thinking along the same idea. I am unsure how your misunderstood what i was trying to say. :?

 

[soulcougher73]

I guess im sort of cold hearted, but if im a starving person in a country where ive starved my whole life and nothing has gotten better due to corruption etc. Then why the F am i having kids i cant feed and i know will most likely die. If anything these parents should be killed for being irresponsible parents bringing kids into that kind of invironment of death and starvation. So i agree. Let them starve to equilibrium or make a real change and overthrown whatever corrupt government is in place to get these people some real help. I believe in a hand up, not a handout.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Here you go, now we can save Mill's recent Haiti thread asking for people to give food to save some kids and the rants can go below:

I guess I may need to start. I think certain countries appear doomed to fail, or certainly have a great history of it, but on the other hand it's really kind of disgusting that our society has so much food it's killing itself and so much wealth we blow it on, simply, crap, like large houses and cars, while millions of other humans by virtue of being unlucky to be born where they were are dying.

Now imagine these issues next century when the population has doubled. Will farmland have doubled? No, it remains the same. Therefore you're trying to give a finite resource to an infinitely expanding demand.

At some point population growth has overcome natural resources and death is the natural result. Perhaps the true calling of an advanced civilization is successful control over its own growth.

Only China has even attempted to solve this, yet their attempt has largely failed. The rest of the planet continues to endure the results of overpopulation without even attempting to recognize the problem. We ourselves are extremely guilty by creating social programs that require 30% growth each generation to pay for the previous generation?s social services.

We are living beyond our means, and some day this will come to an end. Other nations just don?t have the raw resources to delay the inevitable as we have done. Here?s the real pickle, each amount that we send to them will be an amount we do not have for ourselves when our population hits that magic number. As soon as those resources become needed over here, Haiti will once again be without our aid and support as we fight starvation in America many years from now.

So you have to look at a couple things.

1: Is Haiti overpopulated?
2: Should we foster a dependence on us while we cannot indefinitely give them our support?

Perhaps by feeding them today we foster further population growth there which will result in even more people dying from starvation tomorrow.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
How does handout = trade?

In fact, do a little reading sparky, before you start talking about others lack of "world view." If you were intelligent at all you'd understand that charity to third world nations can significantly damage their trade. How is a local farmer going to compete with FREE FOOD. Good luck building any kind of economy when every time you try to sell your goods to your neighbor, they're already sitting there with a scoop of American leftovers.

Proof of private charities ever having a real negative economic effect involving competition?

Face it. You are blowing smoke. It is not like a charity is suddenly going to transform into something so large and well funded that it will be able to act as a massive substitute for farmers. These people either cannot buy the food because there is not enough of it or they cannot buy the food because they cannot afford it which may very be because there is not enough of it. Either way the farmer's food will get sold so I really do not see the problem.


What you are doing is equating a charity to some kind of massive federally funded program which is ridiculous. They are two completely different beasts.

 

[Xavier434]

Why does anyone here have an issue with anyone voluntarily donating to charities? Isn't that part of the same liberty and freedoms that you people argue to protect whenever you complain about social services? Don't you see the hypocrisy? It is as clear as day.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: beyoku
Re-Read what i said: "These Countries Needs TRADE"
I didn't say anything about handouts nor did I say handouts = Trade.
I am paraphrasing a Ghanaian President who said "We need Trade, NOT Aid."
We are thinking along the same idea. I am unsure how your misunderstood what i was trying to say. :?

You were agreeing with Mill who believes in handouts. If you're for trade (which I am) then handouts damage that and you should be disagreeing with Mill.

 

[Bspendleton79]

I agree that corruption is a huge problem there, but I also feel that if you can not help yourself or your family why are you adding to the problem/population by having more children? It's common sense!

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: BoberFett
How does handout = trade?

In fact, do a little reading sparky, before you start talking about others lack of "world view." If you were intelligent at all you'd understand that charity to third world nations can significantly damage their trade. How is a local farmer going to compete with FREE FOOD. Good luck building any kind of economy when every time you try to sell your goods to your neighbor, they're already sitting there with a scoop of American leftovers.

Proof of private charities ever having a real negative economic effect involving competition?

Face it. You are blowing smoke. It is not like a charity is suddenly going to transform into something so large and well funded that it will be able to act as a massive substitute for farmers. These people either cannot buy the food because there is not enough of it or they cannot buy the food because they cannot afford it which may very be because there is not enough of it. Either way the farmer's food will get sold so I really do not see the problem.


What you are doing is equating a charity to some kind of massive federally funded program which is ridiculous. They are two completely different beasts.

Do your own research slacker.

I'll get you started, jackass.

http://www.amazon.com/Road-Hel...description/0684828006

http://blogs.cgdev.org/globald...ent/2007/08/post_3.php

If you think it's as simple as mailing some food to starving people you're hopelessly naive. Go back to OT where the kids talk about what came out of their asses this morning. It's clearly a topic you'll have no problem with.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Why does anyone here have an issue with anyone voluntarily donating to charities? Isn't that part of the same liberty and freedoms that you people argue to protect whenever you complain about social services? Don't you see the hypocrisy? It is as clear as day.

Your stupidity is clear as day. People are free to do whatever they want with their money. That's what this discussion is about.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Why does anyone here have an issue with anyone voluntarily donating to charities? Isn't that part of the same liberty and freedoms that you people argue to protect whenever you complain about social services? Don't you see the hypocrisy? It is as clear as day.

You people? Perhaps you missed my thoughts on this?

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: BoberFett
How does handout = trade?

In fact, do a little reading sparky, before you start talking about others lack of "world view." If you were intelligent at all you'd understand that charity to third world nations can significantly damage their trade. How is a local farmer going to compete with FREE FOOD. Good luck building any kind of economy when every time you try to sell your goods to your neighbor, they're already sitting there with a scoop of American leftovers.

Proof of private charities ever having a real negative economic effect involving competition?

Face it. You are blowing smoke. It is not like a charity is suddenly going to transform into something so large and well funded that it will be able to act as a massive substitute for farmers. These people either cannot buy the food because there is not enough of it or they cannot buy the food because they cannot afford it which may very be because there is not enough of it. Either way the farmer's food will get sold so I really do not see the problem.


What you are doing is equating a charity to some kind of massive federally funded program which is ridiculous. They are two completely different beasts.

Do your own research slacker.

At least I am not trying to present factual conclusions based on nothing but smoke.

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Why does anyone here have an issue with anyone voluntarily donating to charities? Isn't that part of the same liberty and freedoms that you people argue to protect whenever you complain about social services? Don't you see the hypocrisy? It is as clear as day.

Your stupidity is clear as day. People are free to do whatever they want with their money. That's what this discussion is about.

Yes, and presenting an opportunity to donate to a charity along with providing information as to why the charity exists does not threaten your freedoms what so ever. With that said, what is the basis of your argument?

 

[BoberFett]

Read my post again, dipshit. I added a couple links.

 

[Xavier434]

I just did and thank you for supplying some information. I really do not understand the verbal insults though. Seems like nothing but childish counter productive nonsense to what could be a healthy discussion. With that said, the information in those links surrounds two things:


1. Federal aid which is not a charity so you can rule all of that out of this particular discussion since it has nothing to do with federal aid.

2. Corruption within certain case specific charities. Yes, it exists and people should be cautious but just because some exist doesn't mean we should view the act of charity as always being a bad thing.


Beyond those two things, is there a reasonable argument which suggests that charities in this sense are actually counter productive?

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: beyoku
Re-Read what i said: "These Countries Needs TRADE"
I didn't say anything about handouts nor did I say handouts = Trade.
I am paraphrasing a Ghanaian President who said "We need Trade, NOT Aid."
We are thinking along the same idea. I am unsure how your misunderstood what i was trying to say. :?

You were agreeing with Mill who believes in handouts. If you're for trade (which I am) then handouts damage that and you should be disagreeing with Mill.

I've rarely met a person as obtuse, selfish, and downright stupid as yourself. Justify your barbaric viewpoint all you want. I hope you never ever need help with *anything* because if you do you are a hypocrite.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: beyoku
Re-Read what i said: "These Countries Needs TRADE"
I didn't say anything about handouts nor did I say handouts = Trade.
I am paraphrasing a Ghanaian President who said "We need Trade, NOT Aid."
We are thinking along the same idea. I am unsure how your misunderstood what i was trying to say. :?

You were agreeing with Mill who believes in handouts. If you're for trade (which I am) then handouts damage that and you should be disagreeing with Mill.

I've rarely met a person as obtuse, selfish, and downright stupid as yourself. Justify your barbaric viewpoint all you want. I hope you never ever need help with *anything* because if you do you are a hypocrite.

I've been destitute and never taken charity, so blow me.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Mill
I've rarely met a person as obtuse, selfish, and downright stupid as yourself. Justify your barbaric viewpoint all you want. I hope you never ever need help with *anything* because if you do you are a hypocrite.

I've been destitute and never taken charity, so blow me.

Have you ever been in a position that was beyond your control and your only options left to feed your family were to accept charity donations or steal? Reality strikes really hard all of the sudden when you are in that position regardless of how you got there. Personally, I would rather hand out a little charity then further increase the chances of people stealing and committing violent crimes in order to fulfill the needs of their family so that they may survive.

 

[brandonb]

I agree with Bober...

When someone comes and says "I'll give you welfare for free, all you have to do is have kids and not work and blame it on poverty or drugs or racial discrimination" What do you think the people are going to do? I'd love to pop out kids and have everything paid for. What incentive is there for me to work or better myself when I am given everything? I've never once used a public service, yet I pay $30,000 a year in taxes atleast to get society nowhere. I haven't yet seen any progress from inner cities in my 3 decades I've been observing.

I can guarantee you, if you take that away, most of those people will work, make even more money than they were getting, lower the costs for everybody else and make this place a better place. Its the "give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man how to fish feed for a lifetime" saying.

Now Haiti people may have all odds against them, and I feel sorry for them, but help has to come from within. What have they done? "Well if they are starving how do they better themselves?" I dunno. I can't afford more kids, so I choose to not have them. Maybe they have to use that mentality and change their behavior. Otherwise they have to sink or swim. And at this point they are sinking and we throw life preservers at them, and there is going to be a time we've run out of them to throw to them. So it looks like they have to swim. Thats on them.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: brandonb
I agree with Bober...

When someone comes and says "I'll give you welfare for free, all you have to do is have kids and not work and blame it on poverty or drugs or racial discrimination" What do you think the people are going to do? I'd love to pop out kids and have everything paid for. What incentive is there for me to work or better myself when I am given everything? I've never once used a public service, yet I pay $30,000 a year in taxes atleast to get society nowhere. I haven't yet seen any progress from inner cities in my 3 decades I've been observing.

I can guarantee you, if you take that away, most of those people will work, make even more money than they were getting, lower the costs for everybody else and make this place a better place. Its the "give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man how to fish feed for a lifetime" saying.

Now Haiti people may have all odds against them, and I feel sorry for them, but help has to come from within. What have they done? "Well if they are starving how do they better themselves?" I dunno. I can't afford more kids, so I choose to not have them. Maybe they have to use that mentality and change their behavior. Otherwise they have to sink or swim. And at this point they are sinking and we throw life preservers at them, and there is going to be a time we've run out of them to throw to them. So it looks like they have to swim. Thats on them.

That argument revolves around how federally funded welfare works and how it effects people though. That is completely different from charity organizations and how they work. There is no law which guarantees anything in a charity. Apples and oranges.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Mill

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: beyoku
Re-Read what i said: "These Countries Needs TRADE"
I didn't say anything about handouts nor did I say handouts = Trade.
I am paraphrasing a Ghanaian President who said "We need Trade, NOT Aid."
We are thinking along the same idea. I am unsure how your misunderstood what i was trying to say. :?

You were agreeing with Mill who believes in handouts. If you're for trade (which I am) then handouts damage that and you should be disagreeing with Mill.

I've rarely met a person as obtuse, selfish, and downright stupid as yourself. Justify your barbaric viewpoint all you want. I hope you never ever need help with *anything* because if you do you are a hypocrite.

I've been destitute and never taken charity, so blow me.

You are a liar. Everyone at one point in their life has taken charity or a handout. That's what children do. Why do you think you were fed as a child? I doubt you were out killing your own food and growing fields of maize.

Get off your idealistic highhorse. You want others not to have what you have simply because of where they were born.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Mill
I've rarely met a person as obtuse, selfish, and downright stupid as yourself. Justify your barbaric viewpoint all you want. I hope you never ever need help with *anything* because if you do you are a hypocrite.

I've been destitute and never taken charity, so blow me.

Have you ever been in a position that was beyond your control and your only options left to feed your family were to accept charity donations or steal? Reality strikes really hard all of the sudden when you are in that position regardless of how you got there. Personally, I would rather hand out a little charity then further increase the chances of people stealing and committing violent crimes in order to fulfill the needs of their family so that they may survive.

It is an attention thing with BoberFett. He has always felt the need to seek attention since he has been on this forum. I don't even know why I got into a debate with him. His stance is just a way to be an AW.

 

[razor2025]

I would like for many of the posters here to read the following book:

http://www.amazon.com/Mountain...er-Would/dp/0812973011

Many of the points and questions posted on this thread are talked about in the book. As for my thoughts. There's no excuse or explanation for people's position for charity. It's either you believe in helping the less fortunate or helping yourself. Complicating this simple choice is simply a egotistical mental jerk-off.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Why does anyone here have an issue with anyone voluntarily donating to charities? Isn't that part of the same liberty and freedoms that you people argue to protect whenever you complain about social services? Don't you see the hypocrisy? It is as clear as day.

Your stupidity is clear as day. People are free to do whatever they want with their money. That's what this discussion is about.

Actually no people are not. A good portion of us pay taxes, and a good portion of those taaxes already go to "help the poor".

Which is precisely why I dont donate 1 damn penny to any charity, jar or bell ringer.