Saving America's middle class.

[Ferocious]

Which explains why conservative economics wiped out the middle class during the period from 1880 to 1932, and why, when Reagan again began applying conservative economics, the middle class again began to vanish in America in the 1980s - a process that has dramatically picked up steam under George W. Bush.

Interesting even if a bit extreme

 

[LordMagnusKain]

i am poor, and i am exceedingly wealthy by even other industrialized nation's standards.

freedom is more important than 'economic equality' because, honestly, not everyone provides enough to his fellow man to deserve a higher standard of living; But who that is isn't for me to judge, it's for the market system.

 

[dmcowen674]

The Middle class is already gone.

The question is can it be brought back. Should it be brought back or is the UNanny States Of Opression destined to it's new Caste System forever?

 

[amok]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The Middle class is already gone.

The question is can it be brought back. Should it be brought back or is the UNanny States Of Opression destined to it's new Caste System forever?

Saying that the middle class is gone is like insisting the Tooth Fairy exists. No matter how many times you catch your parents shoving that dollar under your pillow . There is a middle class, and there always will be. Even during the height of feudalism there was a middle class equivalent. The argument isn't the existance or non-existance of the middle class, but rather its size relative to the other socioeconomic classes.

As for the Caste System, please keep your 'shock jocking' confined to your radio show. Most of us here are a bit too logical for it, and it actually detracts from the points you are trying to make. Caste systems don't allow mobility, which is still completely possible here. People are climbing up and falling down the economic ladder every day.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Ferocious


Interesting even if a bit extreme

Unlike you.

 

[MAW1082]

The rich get richer. The rest get poorer. This is the basis of conservative capitalism, there is no argument. The more capital one owns, the more likely one is to obtain even more capital. Anyone who has taken even an introductory economics course should know this (i.e. opportunity costs, etc.).

So the situation in the United States right now is that George Bush is making it even easier for the ones with large amounts of capital to obtain more capital (GW claims that since he is giving the extremely wealthy in the US tax cuts, it will put more money in their pockets and thus have more capital that can be used to gain more capital).

Welcome to the real world kids . . . the oligarchy is all around us, the Iron Heel is pressing down upon us.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: MAW1082
The rich get richer. The rest get poorer. This is the basis of conservative capitalism, there is no argument. The more capital one owns, the more likely one is to obtain even more capital. Anyone who has taken even an introductory economics course should know this (i.e. opportunity costs, etc.).

So the situation in the United States right now is that George Bush is making it even easier for the ones with large amounts of capital to obtain more capital (GW claims that since he is giving the extremely wealthy in the US tax cuts, it will put more money in their pockets and thus have more capital that can be used to gain more capital).

Welcome to the real world kids . . . the oligarchy is all around us, the Iron Heel is pressing down upon us.

and your alternative would be?

 

[DanJ]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: MAW1082
The rich get richer. The rest get poorer. This is the basis of conservative capitalism, there is no argument. The more capital one owns, the more likely one is to obtain even more capital. Anyone who has taken even an introductory economics course should know this (i.e. opportunity costs, etc.).

So the situation in the United States right now is that George Bush is making it even easier for the ones with large amounts of capital to obtain more capital (GW claims that since he is giving the extremely wealthy in the US tax cuts, it will put more money in their pockets and thus have more capital that can be used to gain more capital).

Welcome to the real world kids . . . the oligarchy is all around us, the Iron Heel is pressing down upon us.

and your alternative would be?

Have the Government serve the interest of the majority, not just those that have the majority of the money. "By the people, for the people."

No?

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: DanJ

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: MAW1082
The rich get richer. The rest get poorer. This is the basis of conservative capitalism, there is no argument. The more capital one owns, the more likely one is to obtain even more capital. Anyone who has taken even an introductory economics course should know this (i.e. opportunity costs, etc.).

So the situation in the United States right now is that George Bush is making it even easier for the ones with large amounts of capital to obtain more capital (GW claims that since he is giving the extremely wealthy in the US tax cuts, it will put more money in their pockets and thus have more capital that can be used to gain more capital).

Welcome to the real world kids . . . the oligarchy is all around us, the Iron Heel is pressing down upon us.

and your alternative would be?

Have the Government serve the interest of the majority, not just those that have the majority of the money. "By the people, for the people."

No?

How? By allowing the poor to milk the rich thereby making them poor as well?

Specifics, damn you!

 

[DanJ]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: DanJ
Have the Government serve the interest of the majority, not just those that have the majority of the money. "By the people, for the people."

No?

How? By allowing the poor to milk the rich thereby making them poor as well?

Specifics, damn you!

Yea, always with the spitting on the poor people. Nicely done.

How about:

- Greater tax cuts for people who actually spend money actively (the middle class, the more they have the more they will spend) then those that will spend the same amount of money no matter how much more money they get in tax cuts (What's 10K here and there if you make 600K a year).
- A healthcare bill that doesn't seek to keep the drug companies swimming in cash so they can further advertise drugs people don't need. Yes, the current medicare bill making it illegal for the Government to try to negotiate lower prices is quite hilarious, and making it illegal to import the same safe prescription drugs from Canada for a fraction of the cost is really helping those in the middle class who are actually affected by drug costs. No?
- A modification or complete rewrite to our trade policy to actually not give incentive for companies to move jobs offshore; I find it amusing that we abolished slavery but are totally cool with essentially using 3rd world countries for slave labor. Way to go US.

Bad ideas?

 

[daniel1113]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The Middle class is already gone.

The question is can it be brought back. Should it be brought back or is the UNanny States Of Opression destined to it's new Caste System forever?

The majority of Americans are middle class. Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[amok]

How? By allowing the poor to milk the rich thereby making them poor as well?

Nicely dramatic, but not accurate in any way, shape, or form. If you proposed taking away the holdings of wealthy individuals, then that might be the case. However, increased taxes on earnings from that wealth can't make anyone poorer. Those with accumulated wealth will still have their hoard, it will just feed on itself a little more slowly.

 

[FrodoB]

Originally posted by: DanJ

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: DanJ
Have the Government serve the interest of the majority, not just those that have the majority of the money. "By the people, for the people."

No?

How? By allowing the poor to milk the rich thereby making them poor as well?

Specifics, damn you!

Yea, always with the spitting on the poor people. Nicely done.

How about:

- Greater tax cuts for people who actually spend money actively (the middle class, the more they have the more they will spend) then those that will spend the same amount of money no matter how much more money they get in tax cuts (What's 10K here and there if you make 600K a year).
- A healthcare bill that doesn't seek to keep the drug companies swimming in cash so they can further advertise drugs people don't need. Yes, the current medicare bill making it illegal for the Government to try to negotiate lower prices is quite hilarious, and making it illegal to import the same safe prescription drugs from Canada for a fraction of the cost is really helping those in the middle class who are actually affected by drug costs. No?
- A modification or complete rewrite to our trade policy to actually not give incentive for companies to move jobs offshore; I find it amusing that we abolished slavery but are totally cool with essentially using 3rd world countries for slave labor. Way to go US.

Bad ideas?

Mostly bad.

1. The poor and lower-middle pay little to nothing in taxes.
2. You don't penalize the achievers.
3. Slave labor in the 3rd world? Do you suggest US companies pay the third world more? Or are you suggesting we take jobs away from the 3rd world? Without these jobs, how could many of them survive?

 

[Bowfinger]

Most interesting article. Thanks, Ferocious.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: daniel1113

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The Middle class is already gone.

The question is can it be brought back. Should it be brought back or is the UNanny States Of Opression destined to it's new Caste System forever?

The majority of Americans are middle class. Sorry to burst your bubble.

sorry to burst your bubble, but their is NO SUCH THING as a middle class!

only the oppressed proletariat, peat bourgeoisies, bourgeois oppressors, and those that rule the country from atop the iron triangle.


comrades, let us rise up against the evil that represses us!

 

[Wolfdog]

There will always be wage class distinctions, since people generally fall within a salary/wage range. What does remain though is that healthcare expenses are going up, wages are going down, and the tax cuts mean nothing if the cost of living keeps on increasing.

For the most part most of the expense in healthcare today is not going to see the doctor or even the treatment. Current regulations put an inordinate amount of paperwork which then needs the dozens of clerical staff to move the files from one person to the next. Drug cost is the second factor. When it comes down to it you are either a good leader or not. So far the current administration has catered to the top 10% while piddling down upon those that are coming up from the bottom. Even taking the current trends in the economy, where gas prices are set to reach above $2 a gallon even out here. A real leader would be more than "concerned" about the gas prices, they would act. When there was a shortage during Clintons last few years, he tapped the strategic oil reserve to give them help. Bush complained about it, but what is new. You have to ask yourself who this really hurts. The people that already have a low disposable income? A whole lot of good a tax cut does when you are now spending it on heating your home and filling up your gas tank to get to work. The cost of living is continuing to increase and will do so into the future unless controls are placed upon gouging the consumer. There isn't a supply issue folks with the gas system, it is the oil/petroleum monopolies raising prices because they feel like it. This is only one facet of the evergrowing necessity of corporations to sell out america. Once the top paying jobs have started to leave the US then the governmnet will finally act. IBM is set to start this over the next ten years. What is the real price though? A country with a failing healthcare system, with a majority that has little extra money to spend? It may be the time for Americans to find thier voice and start running the country themselves again. Putting the most smart, not the most popular people in the places they need to be. Not electing someone just because they are a republican or democrat. Or Maybe we should outsource the senate, congress and the whitehouse to India and see how they feel.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: MAW1082
The rich get richer. The rest get poorer. This is the basis of conservative capitalism, there is no argument. The more capital one owns, the more likely one is to obtain even more capital. Anyone who has taken even an introductory economics course should know this (i.e. opportunity costs, etc.).

So the situation in the United States right now is that George Bush is making it even easier for the ones with large amounts of capital to obtain more capital (GW claims that since he is giving the extremely wealthy in the US tax cuts, it will put more money in their pockets and thus have more capital that can be used to gain more capital).

Welcome to the real world kids . . . the oligarchy is all around us, the Iron Heel is pressing down upon us.

You forget one thing though. Capital can be created. It's not just stolen from the poor. It would be stupid to think that the pool of money never grows and that money just switches hands from the poor to the rich.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: DanJ


- Greater tax cuts for people who actually spend money actively (the middle class, the more they have the more they will spend) then those that will spend the same amount of money no matter how much more money they get in tax cuts (What's 10K here and there if you make 600K a year).
- A healthcare bill that doesn't seek to keep the drug companies swimming in cash so they can further advertise drugs people don't need. Yes, the current medicare bill making it illegal for the Government to try to negotiate lower prices is quite hilarious, and making it illegal to import the same safe prescription drugs from Canada for a fraction of the cost is really helping those in the middle class who are actually affected by drug costs. No?
- A modification or complete rewrite to our trade policy to actually not give incentive for companies to move jobs offshore; I find it amusing that we abolished slavery but are totally cool with essentially using 3rd world countries for slave labor. Way to go US.

Bad ideas?

Gotta agree with Frodo on this one where this is mostly, if not completely bad....

1. If you give greater Tax cuts to the middle class in the hopes that they spend more then you are indirectly also encouraging them to save less and we will have more problems with debt/bankruptcy, if anything the wealthiest are in the best position to spend the most the only problem is that generally those with money like to keep it.

2. How will this effect the many US based pharamceutical companies and their earnings? Biotech is up and comming in the US, your plan could seriously stifle this progress and potentially kill and industry, also it promotes what you preach against in your third issue with re. to trade policy. Not to mention the regualtion costs we would have to endure as drugs from other nations will need to be regulated and ensured as being safe.

3. This will stifle competition and only cost the american public more money, you have to remember that we are now part of a "global" economy and we must compete as such....to restrict companies from cost cutting would hurt everyone...I agree there shouldn't be any real incentives but also there shouldn't be a punishment.

 

[TheGameIs21]

You know what's sad? So many people think that the rich/top 10/tax gouged have these "Richie Rich" bank vaults in their home and are just sitting around a fireplace thinking about what they can do to put more cash in the vault. That is not the case. With the exception of people that come accross fortune by way of distant family or lotto, people that have that much money are buying investments to either grow or secure their money. Holding cash is a stupid idea for anyone and just not done by people that want remain rich/wealthy. Those that have grown up with money and want to keep it, learn that lesson quickly.

When someone buys an investment that money is circulated. Just figure for yourself how much money is moved around in a commercial or residential property purchase.

I remember when I made enough to be called poverty income. I worked at a local university as a security guard. I got money back from the government. I know that I barely paid anything in. I enjoyed the money, didn't understand why the government was paying me but I didn't complain. Even then, I knew that the richest in the US were paying me 1 time a year for being poor. As a small business owner, I still don't understand why people think the rich should be burdened with paying for the poor. Those that don't think that the rich are being over taxed are simply wanting to live in a socialist society where you are given what you need by the government and only the government leaders are rich. That is fair. Talk about getting rid of the income classes....

[edit] My bad. There are 2 classes still in a socialist government... The government and The citizens.

so·cial·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ssh-lzm)
n.
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
2. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved. [/edit]

 

[DoubleL]

In this country anyone can be rich if they want to work at it their hole life, To me that is great that they want to do that and it makes the middle class happy with the jobs that the rich supply, Money never meant that much to me, The greatest things in life don't cost anything, The love of your mother and father, Both mine are gone, To have kids and see them grow up , Money can't buy that and more than you know can never have that no matter how much money they have, Just to take a long walk with someone you love, You know how many can never do that, You can have all the money in the world and be poor and the someone without a dime can be rich

 

[FrodoB]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
In this country anyone can be rich if they want to work at it their hole life, To me that is great that they want to do that and it makes the middle class happy with the jobs that the rich supply, Money never meant that much to me, The greatest things in life don't cost anything, The love of your mother and father, Both mine are gone, To have kids and see them grow up , Money can't buy that and more than you know can never have that no matter how much money they have, Just to take a long walk with someone you love, You know how many can never do that, You can have all the money in the world and be poor and the someone without a dime can be rich

Very good message. It's the truth. There are some people that simply aren't able to deal with financial excess despite the fact they are "smart" enough to earn it. I have a couple friends that spend every dime of their money on stupid stuff (one of them has more dvds than blockbuster, I'm not kidding) and they're miserable and have bad relationships with their significant others. On the flip side of the coin some of my extended family are very wealthy, but they never flaunt it and always put their family first. THey're genuinely happy people. I believe that "materialism in moderation" and placing your loved ones first are the two ingredients to a very happy life.
Like you said, we're lucky to live in a country where we can determine our income level. I wish more people would realize this, stop blaming others for their problems and empower themselves. But still, even our "poor" can live in a house and drive a car.

 

[Dissipate]

Markets are the creation of government.

You know what the rule of thumb is when reading something. If there is one deceptive statement you can't trust any of it. Well my friends here is one such deceptive statement. There are lies and misleading statements all throughout this little essay, just thought I would point out the most blatant of them all.

Markets are NOT the creation of government, in fact markets exist even in countries where there virtually is no government, markets are the creation of people trading goods and services on their own free will.

Edit: I just added "middle class" to my sig after reading this essay.

 

[MAW1082]

You forget one thing though. Capital can be created. It's not just stolen from the poor. It would be stupid to think that the pool of money never grows and that money just switches hands from the poor to the rich.

Lets start with a simple example about capital:

CompanyA: owns a factory, seven machines, employs 40 workers and has $X.XX in the bank.
CompanyB: owns a factory, seven machines, employs 40 workers and has $Y.YY in the bank.

** For all X, X>Y

So assume all is going well, the companies are competing and experiencing similar growth and output . . . then a new machine that increases productivity by D is invented by CompanyC. CompanyC sells these machines.

Since CompanyA has more available capital for the purchase of new machines, CompanyA inherently gains an advantage over CompanyB equivalent to the advantage gained by the use of the enw machines.

Now the companies are no longer equal and CompanyA will inevitably gain an advantage in the market since it will be able to produce cheaper goods.

This is an example that nearly explains the idea of opportunity cost; however, I failed to mention the implications of withdrawaling an investment from another sector for the purchase of machinery.

So my point is . . . All this theory about perfect competition is all fine and dandy until technological advancement occurs. In nearly every case, the individual / entity with the most liquid capital will be most able to take advantage of advances in technology. Furthermore, I think we can all agree that superior technology will be able to produce cheaper products and quite possibly superior products. So I'm not actually forgetting about the creation of capital. The creation of capital is the basis of my entire argument.

The means of production is what I speak about.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

The rich get richer. The rest get poorer. This is the basis of conservative capitalism, there is no argument.

depends on what you mean by 'richer' and 'poorer';
if you mean disparity between the top 1% and the bottom 1% in terms of stores of value, then your right; but if you mean the difference between the quality of life of the top 1% and the bottom 1% then the lower cost of better goods will bring everyone into a better standard of living.

But in the end their is also encouragement to work your way into the top, even if it's multigenerationaly.

 

[Chadder007]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
The Middle class is already gone.

The question is can it be brought back. Should it be brought back or is the UNanny States Of Opression destined to it's new Caste System forever?

BWUAHAHAHAHA LOL WTF