Saw a Tesla S on the road

[Kaido]

Supercharging capability is optional on the 60Kwh model S. And it was not available at all on the base 40Kwh model.

Supercharging reduces battery life, and it still takes over an hour to recharge the 85kwh model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Supercharger_network

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Motors#Supercharger_network

The 40Kwh model S was cancelled as few people ordered it.



I guess this means the base price of an S with supercharging capability is now about $12K higher since you have to buy a 60Kwh version and add the capability.

So base is now $62,400, and add $2K for supercharging.

An hour is definitely a lot better than 2 hours...and then there's this interesting little tidbit:

...allowing the Model S to replenish an 85-kwh battery in about one hour, or give it an additional 150 mi (240 km) of range in about 20 minutes.

I wonder how that'd affect battery life - driving 150 miles, doing a 20-minute charge, rinse, repeat all day across America on a road trip...

 

[LTC8K6]

Doesn't really appeal to me, honestly. I was checking out my buddy's red one today though and it looks really nice in person. They start at about $40k without rebates and they advertise 900 miles between fillups, but you can get 800 on a TDI Passat.

900 miles between fillups? The Volt has a ~9 gallon gas tank and gets about 35 mpg...

 

[vi edit]

I wonder how that'd affect battery life - driving 150 miles, doing a 20-minute charge, rinse, repeat all day across America on a road trip...

Seems like a massive amount of abuse to put on a $100,000 car. Not to mention a major pain in the ass. Electric just isn't set up for transcontinental traveling. That's not what it was designed for. It's a daily gasser replacement.

 

[LTC8K6]

An hour is definitely a lot better than 2 hours...and then there's this interesting little tidbit:



I wonder how that'd affect battery life - driving 150 miles, doing a 20-minute charge, rinse, repeat all day across America on a road trip...

We know very fast charging reduces battery life, but it's hard to pin it down or get manufacturers to explain it clearly.

So it's hard to say whether it would be significant or not.

I would think your scenario might be significant.

 

[TheStu]

We know very fast charging reduces battery life, but it's hard to pin it down or get manufacturers to explain it clearly.

So it's hard to say whether it would be significant or not.

I would think your scenario might be significant.

Per Tesla, use of the supercharger network does not affect your warranty at all, and with all the monitoring and diagnostic software onboard on those things, they'll be able to pull up information that shows if heavy use of superchargers broke the battery or not.

 

[LTC8K6]

Per Tesla, use of the supercharger network does not affect your warranty at all, and with all the monitoring and diagnostic software onboard on those things, they'll be able to pull up information that shows if heavy use of superchargers broke the battery or not.

Keep in mind that supercharging bypasses the onboard charger.

The battery has it's own warranty. 8/125 for the 60Kwh base model and 8/unlimited for the 85Kwh models.

Tesla says using the supercharger won't affect the vehicle warranty.

I would guess that the battery warranty is pro-rated. If so, the use of the supercharger network may indeed affect your battery warranty.

They will replace the pack if it fails, but loss of range is not failure.

The site also says this, which indicates that rapid charging and discharging will shorten life. The battery is optimized for nightly regular charging.

Battery lifetime is affected by both age and the total amount of energy it delivers over time. The Tesla battery is optimized for nightly charging. Frequently charging to the standard charge level (approximately 90%) enhances the longevity of your battery.

 

[Kaido]

900 miles between fillups? The Volt has a ~9 gallon gas tank and gets about 35 mpg...

Per their website:

http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car.html

Imagine only hitting the gas station once a month. A fantasy? Far from it. In fact, Volt drivers who charge regularly are averaging 900 miles, or about a month between fill-ups.

And Fuelly:

http://www.fuelly.com/car/chevrolet/volt

And per the FAQ:

http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/

Q: How is the Chevy Volt different than other cars on the road?
A: The car is a plug-in range-extended electric vehicle with an on-board gasoline generator. It has a large battery that stores power from your home electric outlet and which is connected to an electric motor. The electric motor directly propels the car. The battery can power the car for the first 25 to 50 miles. After that, should one continue to need to drive, the on-board gasoline generator provide electricity for the motor and participate in driving the car.

Q: How is the Chevy Volt different than conventional hybrids, like the Prius?
A: Today’s hybrids are called parallel hybrids. They use a small electric motor for low speed driving, but switch to a regular gas engine for acceleration and faster speed driving with the electric motor providing enhancement, hence both engines work side by side or in parallel.
The Volt is a series vehicle meaning only the electric motor powers the car at all times, the gas engine is just a generator for making electricity once the battery is depleted. A little like the Prius, the engine does help spin the wheels after the battery is depleted. GM engineers chose to do this because it improved efficiency by 10 to 15 percent.

Q: What is the driving range of the Chevy Volt?
A: The car has been designed to drive from 25 to 50 miles on pure electricity stored in the battery from overnight home charging. The actual range will vary depending on temperature, terrain, and driving style.
After that the gas engine will kick in and allow the car to be driven an additional 344 miles on a full tank (9.3 gallons) of gas.


Q: How many miles per gallon will the Chevy Volt get?
A: A bit of a trick question. For the first 35 miles it will get infinite mpg, because no gas will be burned. When the generator starts, the car will get 37 mpg (35 mpg city/40 mpg highway) thereafter. One can calculate the average mpg per for any length drive starting with a full battery:
Total MPG = ~37 x miles/(miles-35). The official EPA fuel economy can be viewed here.

So it looks like the battery gets plugged-in at night and gives you 25 to 50 miles. Then the gas engine kicks in to power the electric motor, with the electric motor still powering the car at all times. So the ICE basically becomes an electric generator. So on gas it gets an extra 344 miles on the 9.3-gallon tank of gas, so giving it the benefit of the doubt, 344 gas miles + 50 electric miles = roughly 400 miles per tank of gas. I think they're just calculating based off the average American's miles-per-day (something like 37 miles) and then factoring in for when the gas engine kicks in & burns through gas. In other words, total BS just for marketing purposes. I mean, if you drive less than 50 miles a day, you'd average like a million miles on a tank of gas because you'd never really use it.

I do think the Volt is kind of cool. My daily round trip is 40 to 50 miles a day. So it would make a lot of sense because most of my trip would be on battery, and if I could plug in at work, I could pretty much just live off the battery while having a gas backup engine, which would give me nearly 350 miles post-battery. And could be fuelled up anywhere. The downside is that it's a $40,000 car. Yeah, you get a $7,500 tax credit, but not until tax time at the end of the year. Plus you'll have to deal with replacing the battery eventually (I'd assume this will be thousands of dollars, even with a trade-in). So unless you normally buy $40,000 cars, you're not saving a lot of gas money. I'm usually in the $20k range for my leases, so that extra $20k would buy 4 year's worth of gas at my current rate of ~$5k/yrs. Plus you're still buying gas in the Volt if you exceed the battery range throughout the day. I think the Volt would be a lot cooler in like the $25k range, where the savings would make more sense.

 

[Kaido]

Seems like a massive amount of abuse to put on a $100,000 car. Not to mention a major pain in the rear. Electric just isn't set up for transcontinental traveling. That's not what it was designed for. It's a daily gasser replacement.

Yeah, but if you're buying $100k cars, you probably don't care about battery costs

 

[LTC8K6]

Per their website:

http://www.chevrolet.com/volt-electric-car.html



And Fuelly:

http://www.fuelly.com/car/chevrolet/volt

And per the FAQ:

http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/



So it looks like the battery gets plugged-in at night and gives you 25 to 50 miles. Then the gas engine kicks in to power the electric motor, with the electric motor still powering the car at all times. So the ICE basically becomes an electric generator. So on gas it gets an extra 344 miles on the 9.3-gallon tank of gas, so giving it the benefit of the doubt, 344 gas miles + 50 electric miles = roughly 400 miles per tank of gas. I think they're just calculating based off the average American's miles-per-day (something like 37 miles) and then factoring in for when the gas engine kicks in & burns through gas. In other words, total BS just for marketing purposes. I mean, if you drive less than 50 miles a day, you'd average like a million miles on a tank of gas because you'd never really use it.

I do think the Volt is kind of cool. My daily round trip is 40 to 50 miles a day. So it would make a lot of sense because most of my trip would be on battery, and if I could plug in at work, I could pretty much just live off the battery while having a gas backup engine, which would give me nearly 350 miles post-battery. And could be fuelled up anywhere. The downside is that it's a $40,000 car. Yeah, you get a $7,500 tax credit, but not until tax time at the end of the year. Plus you'll have to deal with replacing the battery eventually (I'd assume this will be thousands of dollars, even with a trade-in). So unless you normally buy $40,000 cars, you're not saving a lot of gas money. I'm usually in the $20k range for my leases, so that extra $20k would buy 4 year's worth of gas at my current rate of ~$5k/yrs. Plus you're still buying gas in the Volt if you exceed the battery range throughout the day. I think the Volt would be a lot cooler in like the $25k range, where the savings would make more sense.

I knew what they were doing regarding the fill-up mileage.

 

[Kaido]

I knew what they were doing regarding the fill-up mileage.

I didn't (research post for me haha). Sneaky marketers

 

[Childs]

Live in the bay area, see a ton of them. They're pretty large, but I prefer smaller cars so what is 'normal' to most people is a land barge to me.

Yeah, there are at least 3 in the parking lot at work, and I'm sure at the main campus there are many more. Its not uncommon to see them on the road.

 

[Kaido]

Looks like Tesla will be announcing a new battery pack quick-swap system:

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/06/1...tesla-model-s-battery-swaps-demo-coming-this/

 

[OVerLoRDI]

They look huge to me.. but I do prefer smaller cars.

They are pretty big Imo and I see them all the time. I live in sf

 

[MagickMan]

Saw a Model S in the flesh for the first time today, it was attractive, photos don't really do it justice.

 

[thomsbrain]

Living in Silicon Valley, I probably see half a dozen a day on the freeway. They are very popular and you can tell them a mile away from the distinctive LED eyebrows. They look great when they are cruising along in their lowest suspension setting.

 

[Kaido]

Saw it again today on my way home down the street from me. I think the owner might live down the street because I saw a guy in my town with a reservation on the unofficial Tesla owner's map awhile back.

Oooh

 

[natto fire]

Been wanting to see one in person, and would like to drive one at some point. Haven't seen any here in Columbus yet, but I don't drive much in the "rich" areas, and barely even see great cars in general.

 

[thescreensavers]

Living in South Florida I see them quite a lot. I sat in one but I was less than impressed with Seat and surrounding materials. Something to do with the sitting position/shape of the seat put me off.

Nice looking car though.

 

[Kaido]

Tesla showed off their new 90-second battery-swapping technology:

http://gigaom.com/2013/06/21/tesla-shows-off-battery-swap-tech-video/

So you have 2 refill options on the road:

1. Free (Supercharger network)
2. Fast (90-second battery swap)

From Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-tesla-swap-idUSBRE95K07H20130621

The automaker will roll out the battery-swapping stations later this year, beginning along the heavily-traveled route between Los Angeles and San Francisco and then in the Washington-to-Boston corridor.

...

A battery pack swap will cost between $60 and $80, about the same as filling up a 15-gallon gas tank, Musk said. Drivers who choose to swap must reclaim their original battery on their return trip or pay the difference in cost for the new pack.

I'm not quite sure I understand the economics of this. If you do this on a daily basis, on the low-end you'll be paying $60 a day. If you work 5 days a week on this route, that's $300 a week, and if you work every week for a year, that's $15,600 a year. I mean, if you can afford a $100,000 Tesla S with the 265-mile battery, then $15k a year in fuel is probably not a huge deal, but it seems...horrifically excessive? Why not just get a gas car?

I'd imagine the point of this is more for extended occasional trips rather than daily-driving. Unless you're wealthy and prefer driving your own car rather than a limo

 

[Kaido]

More on the 90-second battery swap on Engadget:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/21/tesla-motors-battery-swaps-faster-than-gas/

the exchange is expected to cost owners between $60 - $80 each time or about the cost of 15 gallons of gas

...

owners will stay in the car the whole time then either swap the battery back for their original on a return trip, or get a bill for the difference based on how new their battery is.

So what we know:

1. $60 to $80 per swap
2. Swap the battery back for your original on your return trip
3. Keep the original and be billed for the difference based on how new your battery is

So in a minute and a half, you can get a 200 to 265-mile boost in your Tesla for $60 to $80. Sounds nice in a pinch, but starting out you have to be in certain areas (California or Boston-to-Washington), so the service locations are limited. Again, I'm not sure on the economics...my Volvo S80 gets 20 MPG, so 15 gallons * 20 MPG = 300 miles. So the pricing vs. range is roughly equivalent to the Tesla (assuming 265-mile electric range).

Hmm. I'm curious to see if this takes off or not. The Supercharger network seems like a much better idea to me.

 

[Kaido]

Tesla S cold weather test in Norway:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ5PqPeOPT0

 

[LTC8K6]

More on the 90-second battery swap on Engadget:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/21/tesla-motors-battery-swaps-faster-than-gas/



So what we know:

1. $60 to $80 per swap
2. Swap the battery back for your original on your return trip
3. Keep the original and be billed for the difference based on how new your battery is

So in a minute and a half, you can get a 200 to 265-mile boost in your Tesla for $60 to $80. Sounds nice in a pinch, but starting out you have to be in certain areas (California or Boston-to-Washington), so the service locations are limited. Again, I'm not sure on the economics...my Volvo S80 gets 20 MPG, so 15 gallons * 20 MPG = 300 miles. So the pricing vs. range is roughly equivalent to the Tesla (assuming 265-mile electric range).

Hmm. I'm curious to see if this takes off or not. The Supercharger network seems like a much better idea to me.

The pack swap idea would eliminate any possibility of range loss from frequent supercharging/rapid discharging on a long trip.

 

[Brovane]

Tesla showed off their new 90-second battery-swapping technology:

http://gigaom.com/2013/06/21/tesla-shows-off-battery-swap-tech-video/

So you have 2 refill options on the road:

1. Free (Supercharger network)
2. Fast (90-second battery swap)

From Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/us-tesla-swap-idUSBRE95K07H20130621



I'm not quite sure I understand the economics of this. If you do this on a daily basis, on the low-end you'll be paying $60 a day. If you work 5 days a week on this route, that's $300 a week, and if you work every week for a year, that's $15,600 a year. I mean, if you can afford a $100,000 Tesla S with the 265-mile battery, then $15k a year in fuel is probably not a huge deal, but it seems...horrifically excessive? Why not just get a gas car?

I'd imagine the point of this is more for extended occasional trips rather than daily-driving. Unless you're wealthy and prefer driving your own car rather than a limo

So for 5-days a week you are regulary driving over 250+ miles a day? Maybe if you are a sales person that is making sales calls all over. However I suspect that this wouldn't be the normal person. I really see this for the people that quickly need a full battery pack and are doing a road trip. However realistically I would just see most people using the super charger.

 

[Kaido]

So for 5-days a week you are regulary driving over 250+ miles a day? Maybe if you are a sales person that is making sales calls all over. However I suspect that this wouldn't be the normal person. I really see this for the people that quickly need a full battery pack and are doing a road trip. However realistically I would just see most people using the super charger.

Yeah, road trip use is where I see the biggest market for this. Because you'd be paying for gas for the long haul anyway.

I wonder if it will be automated or what? If you can pull into a station in the middle of the night & do a pack swap and then be on your way...

 

[TheStu]

So for 5-days a week you are regulary driving over 250+ miles a day? Maybe if you are a sales person that is making sales calls all over. However I suspect that this wouldn't be the normal person. I really see this for the people that quickly need a full battery pack and are doing a road trip. However realistically I would just see most people using the super charger.

Not only that, but as Musk said, your choices are Fast or Free. So it's not like you have to get the battery swap. Just use the Supercharger as normal.