Say what you want about George W.

[Wheezer]

At least he was smart enough not to get caught spying on our allies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10407282/Barack-Obama-approved-tapping-Angela-Merkels-phone-3-years-ago.html

 

[Matt1970]

Can I wait till a more reliable source covers that story?

 

[MagickMan]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/26/us-germany-usa-spying-idUSBRE99P08G20131026

Since 2002, and Obama didn't have a clue? Either he's entirely incompetent, clueless as to what the intelligence agencies are doing under his watch, or his a bald-faced liar.

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he isn't that ignorant/stupid.

 

[ivwshane]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/26/us-germany-usa-spying-idUSBRE99P08G20131026

Since 2002, and Obama didn't have a clue? Either he's entirely incompetent, clueless as to what the intelligence agencies are doing under his watch, or his a bald-faced liar.

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he isn't that ignorant/stupid.

I'm pretty sure that on the first day of a new presidency, all the top security heads meet with the prez and tell him every fucking program that is going on an it's details.

Makes sense! The president has to not only know everything but he also has to have his hand in day to day operations.

I mean it's not like congress is briefed on these things in their intelligence committees.

 

[OutHouse]

and let the obama ass licking commence!!

 

[MagickMan]

I'm pretty sure that on the first day of a new presidency, all the top security heads meet with the prez and tell him every fucking program that is going on an it's details.

Makes sense! The president has to not only know everything but he also has to have his hand in day to day operations.

I mean it's not like congress is briefed on these things in their intelligence committees.

Agreed. Like I said, he's a liar.

 

[Indus]

This isn't bush's or obama's fault or anyone elses fault. It's Edward Snowden's fault.

His spite of the "government" has made us all look bad.

I'm not going to kiss any president's ass but I'll say this.. for the most part the NSA gets it right when they manage to thwart terror funds/ plans.

Is it perfect? No.
Is it better than doing nothing and just wishing that Americans can defend themselves when the time comes like Flight 93? Yes.

IMHO any president nowdays doesn't care what the NSA or the CIA do. They care what we get caught doing.. just like Abu Graib and Bush was just as stupid as Obama to get caught doing that!

 

[irishScott]

This isn't bush's or obama's fault or anyone elses fault. It's Edward Snowden's fault.

His spite of the "government" has made us all look bad.

I'm not going to kiss any president's ass but I'll say this.. for the most part the NSA gets it right when they manage to thwart terror funds/ plans.

Is it perfect? No.
Is it better than doing nothing and just wishing that Americans can defend themselves when the time comes like Flight 93? Yes.

IMHO any president nowdays doesn't care what the NSA or the CIA do. They care what we get caught doing.. just like Abu Graib and Bush was just as stupid as Obama to get caught doing that!

His "spite" revealed a massive infringement of our 4th Amendment rights.

And if the NSA has stopped the next 9/11, I'd like to see evidence. All the evidence I've seen so far is billions of taxpayer dollars going toward a dangerou, unconstitutional program that hasn't even accomplished what it set out to do. BUT WE NEED IT SO BAD!!!

Imagine if J. Edgar Hoover was director of the NSA. Because at some point someone like him is going to come along again, and I don't want that person in charge of anything resembling PRISM.

 

[FaaR]

At least he was smart enough not to get caught spying on our allies.

No, he got caught spying illegally on the entire american people (check out Room 641A if interested.) ...But I guess you don't care about that.

 

[shortylickens]

At least he was smart enough not to get caught spying on our allies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10407282/Barack-Obama-approved-tapping-Angela-Merkels-phone-3-years-ago.html

 

[shortylickens]

His "spite" revealed a massive infringement of our 4th Amendment rights.

And if the NSA has stopped the next 9/11, I'd like to see evidence. All the evidence I've seen so far is billions of taxpayer dollars going toward a dangerou, unconstitutional program that hasn't even accomplished what it set out to do. BUT WE NEED IT SO BAD!!!

Imagine if J. Edgar Hoover was director of the NSA. Because at some point someone like him is going to come along again, and I don't want that person in charge of anything resembling PRISM.

There needs to be a whole class in public high school that just covers Hoover, McCarthy, Hitler, and Stalin. I really dont think the average American knows enough about them.

 

[kage69]

As I recall it the "Bush" admin got caught doing much worse (our foreign allies don't have constitutional rights, and keeping an eye on your friends is standard practice in the clandestine world, so whoopty shit)

Spying on Americans and other branches of government illegally (telling FISA courts to fuck off) is a bit more severe. He (well, Cheney) had the NSA spy on veterans, the State Dept, Colin Powell (that guy who was "out of the loop"), Justice Scalia, Justice Alito, journalists, and a number of high level military brass. This coming from "Mr. Unitary Executive" too.

I think it speaks to Obama's credit (albeit ever so slightly) that he took the time to at least set up a legal framework behind his programs, regardless of what I think of them. I just don't see Obama spying on Kerry, or treating Veterans like sleeper agents because they disagree and speak out on military strikes against Ghaddafi or Assad.

Obama still deserves all the shit that comes his way over the "data collection" issue, I don't really feel any amount legal justification can support doing that to law abiding American citizens within their own country. But to say he's going about using the NSA in the same (or more inept) manner just doesn't work.

Both admins have an absolutely despicable history with whistleblowers though, and that did surprise me with Obama.

 

[ivwshane]

Agreed. Like I said, he's a liar.

The retard is strong with this one!

 

[cuafpr]

His "spite" revealed a massive infringement of our 4th Amendment rights.

And if the NSA has stopped the next 9/11, I'd like to see evidence. All the evidence I've seen so far is billions of taxpayer dollars going toward a dangerou, unconstitutional program that hasn't even accomplished what it set out to do. BUT WE NEED IT SO BAD!!!

Imagine if J. Edgar Hoover was director of the NSA. Because at some point someone like him is going to come along again, and I don't want that person in charge of anything resembling PRISM.

You realize that due to how we collect data and react if another 9/11 has been stopped they can't really tell us right? Its the down side to these programs if they work right we never know it,but if they are abused everyone knows it, you only hear the negative never the positive.

 

[Lash444]

Both admins have an absolutely despicable history with whistleblowers though, and that did surprise me with Obama.

I think its like anything else in this day and age. Technology is your best friend, and your worst enemy. Technology makes it easier and easier to collect data, but it also makes it that much easier to get caught doing things as well.

These types of things are going to become commonplace. Before, if you stole information like this, how did you transport it? How did you circulate your findings? You risked being greeted by a couple of suits.

Now you can save your information to your iPhone and beam it up to the cloud. That information is then read by people all over the world within minutes.

Look at crooked cops. You think cops are more crooked now than 20 years ago, or do you just think with the amount of cell phones and recording devices that its just that much easier to bring to light a lot more incidents of abuse.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

At least he was smart enough not to get caught spying on our allies.

Not being caught is hardly the most commendable thing one could say.

I'm pretty sure that on the first day of a new presidency, all the top security heads meet with the prez and tell him every fucking program that is going on an it's details.

This argument is not going to serve you or Obama well. You are mostly correct. There are transition teams which advise and inform the incoming administration. This has been the case with every administration that I am aware of. When Bush took over from Clinton, Madeline Albright had a meeting with the National Security Advisor, one Condoleeza Rice, on what she believed was the greatest threat to the US, an organization known as Al Qaeda. In no time the incoming administration decided that Saddam was THE threat and promptly ignored Albrights words.

Now I note that you use "the very first day". Yes, the very first day the President is advised on national security issues. It's the first order of business. Now it may be true that "the first day" the President would not know precisely who was being targeted for intelligence gathering, however he will be informed of major operations, and it's beyond credulity to suggest that spying on the heads of major powers isn't mentioned somewhere. Note that no one suggested that "on the first day" Obama was aware of activities against Germany, however 2010 isn't "on the first day". Now perhaps Obama is so incompetent that he "forgot" to bother to learn about critical information gathering that he didn't know, but that's not an alternative that is attractive either.

I mean it's not like congress is briefed on these things in their intelligence committees

Apparently Congress isn't briefed on a great many things, no surprise, and apparently you seem to not realize that the NSA and the CIA are executive branch entities which answer to the President above all others. They do exactly what the President says

 

[Paul98]

I don't know why spying on other countries is a surprise at all. Seems to be everyone should have already known it was happening.

 

[LegendKiller]

I don't know why spying on other countries is a surprise at all. Seems to be everyone should have already known it was happening.

WHAT? You can't spy on anybody else! This is the first time in human history one country has tried to out maneuver another!

Had snowden stuck with constitutional violations I'd support him. However, he's a fucking rube and released info about foreign intelligence. That is a traitor.

I hope he enjoys living in a country far worse than the US the rest of his life. Then he might know the true meaning of a totalitarian regime.

Then again, the dipshits here don't get it either so I doubt he will.

 

[Doppel]

This isn't bush's or obama's fault or anyone elses fault. It's Edward Snowden's fault.

His spite of the "government" has made us all look bad.

I'm not going to kiss any president's ass but I'll say this.. for the most part the NSA gets it right when they manage to thwart terror funds/ plans.

Is it perfect? No.
Is it better than doing nothing and just wishing that Americans can defend themselves when the time comes like Flight 93? Yes.

IMHO any president nowdays doesn't care what the NSA or the CIA do. They care what we get caught doing.. just like Abu Graib and Bush was just as stupid as Obama to get caught doing that!

Snowden makes the USA look bad because of its bad behavior.

 

[kage69]

WHAT? You can't spy on anybody else! This is the first time in human history one country has tried to out maneuver another!

Had snowden stuck with constitutional violations I'd support him. However, he's a fucking rube and released info about foreign intelligence. That is a traitor.

I hope he enjoys living in a country far worse than the US the rest of his life. Then he might know the true meaning of a totalitarian regime.

Then again, the dipshits here don't get it either so I doubt he will.

Bolded is pretty much exactly where I still stand on the Snowden issue myself. He was right to an extent, but clearly didn't think it through as well as he should have.

He cost us an incredibly detailed view into Russian diplomatic and military communications. But I will admit I smiled when I saw news of our decryption abilities just stomp all over Putin's little tour of bluster and ego - right after he got done mocking the West for disparaging the level of Russian technical and design prowess (wrt to the S-300s he was sending to Syria).

Heh.

Enjoy using those typewriters Vlad.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I don't know why spying on other countries is a surprise at all. Seems to be everyone should have already known it was happening.

We know spying happens. So does war. Some restraint prevents a great many problems. On what basis is Merkle considered an enemy of the state? Perhaps you think we can afford to be hated by everyone for good cause but it's not worth it.

 

[LegendKiller]

Snowden makes the USA look bad because of its bad behavior.

Please, snowden made the US look bad because he released sources and methods. That is traitorous.

Our behavior is nothing more than any other single nation on this planet does. We just happen to do it better than most.

Germans are proud people but very naive as to how they are fucking the rest of europe. It's funny to watch all of these Pols blast out their faux righteous indignation. Merkel doesn't have shit to talk about. She's the one using the Euro to beat the fuck out of the peripheral countries and then force them to mortgage their entire countries. Meanwhile Germany's unemployment rate is one of, if not the, lowest in the Eurozone precisely because of the Euro. Germans are almost utterly ignorant of how their good economy is screwing the rest of Europe while they extend trade credit in unlimited amounts. All so the Pols in germany can stay in power.

If the Eurozone population knew the whole story behind the massive wealth going from the periphery to the core, all because of the Euro, they'd be pretty pissed too. But they pols don't like to talk about that either.

 

[LegendKiller]

We know spying happens. So does war. Some restraint prevents a great many problems. On what basis is Merkle considered an enemy of the state? Perhaps you think we can afford to be hated by everyone for good cause but it's not worth it.

Ask her why she is waging economic war against the entire Eurozone by using the Euro and Target2.

After all, they are supposed to be working together.

 

[davmat787]

I don't know why spying on other countries is a surprise at all. Seems to be everyone should have already known it was happening.

It isn't a surprise to the French at least, see the quote below. What bothers me is the domestic constitution shredding dragnet the NSA is hosting, and presumably making available to domestic law enforcement so they may set up "parallel" investigations.

“The magnitude of the eavesdropping is what shocked us,” said Bernard Kouchner, a former French foreign minister, in a radio interview. “Let’s be honest, we eavesdrop too. Everyone is listening to everyone else. But we don’t have the same means as the United States, which makes us jealous.”

 

[Paul98]

It isn't a surprise to the French at least, see the quote below. What bothers me is the domestic constitution shredding dragnet the NSA is hosting, and presumably making available to domestic law enforcement so they may set up "parallel" investigations.

Yes that is terrible and everyone should be against it. The problem is that it's so easy to side track the bad, to something like spying on other nations which isn't the problem.