School District Sued For Suspending Student Over Anti-Gay T-Shirt

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

Originally posted by: djheater
The "Day of Silence was not school sponsored or authorized.

Anti-gay T-shirts spark suspensions
wataugademocrat.com North Carolina ^


Posted on 04/27/2004 9:41:25 PM PDT by chance33_98




Anti-gay T-shirts spark suspensions

04/26/2004 By Scott Nicholson

A free speech and dress code controversy blossomed at Watauga High School on April 21 when students wore T-shirts apparently intending to counter a student action designed to support gays.

April 21 was a ?Day of Silence,? a voluntary student-led movement in which students go through the day without speaking to mark their support for gays.

High school principal Gary Childers said the observation was not endorsed, sponsored or initiated by the school or its faculty. He said three students were observed wearing cards announcing their participation, while perhaps 15 to 25 may have been participating in all.

link

Using the school's logic those 3 students wearing cards should have been suspended too. Afterall their cards are meant to incite hate against people like the student wearing the t-shirt at the same level as the t-shirt was meant to incite hate against homosexuals. So some hate demonstrations are allowed, some aren't. Nice policy.

I don't get where you come up with these things, think a little.

One of the cases is a student saying that being gay is shameful and the others is showing support for a group. If the cards said that christians are ignorant then it would be the same.

I just feel ashamed for the Christian fundies.

"Hitler was great!"

Is that support or hate? There are many ways to look at actions and speech. If you absolutely refuse to see any other meaning behind "Homosexuality is shameful" than hate then you have closed off your mind. It didn't say "Everyone beat up homosexuals," so it isn't a black and white case of a hateful message. If you stare at the cards identifying those supporting this day of silence, you can find hate as well. It wouldn't be a giant leap of logic to suggest that a person that views homosexuality as shameful to feel uncomfortable when those that support it start making their opinions visibly known in a location his is forced to be in. So is it ok for this kid to feel uncomfortable in school? Wasn't the point of the rules to make the school a relatively safe place to be, where you can focus on learning instead of the political ideologies of your peers?

If he can't express his view that homosexuality is shameful, then the other students shouldn't be able to express their view that homosexuality is acceptable. With an issue as charged as this one either both groups should be able to express their opinions or neither group should be able to. Allowing one but not the other sends a message that people in the opposing group are not welcome at that school.

Where do you draw the line? If support for a group is the same as saying that a group of people are "shameful" i assume that it would be ok with any group of people? Black people are shameful, would that be ok? How about Asians? or let's do it with religion, christians are shameful, would that be ok or is it just with sexual preference? Is it ok to have black history day but gays can't have their silence day?

The support they show for a group is obviously neccessary as this guy wore that t-shirt.

I have a feeling that it isn't all that easy to be openly homosexual and going to school, so i don't think there is ANY reason to make it more difficult for that group of people.

Bottom line, this is up to the school to decide, not you or me.

I draw the line where my right to live is impeeded by your fist. If you want to wear a "Blacks are shameful" shirt, that's your right.

An open forum with a constant sifting and winnowing of ideas. I support your right to say homosexuality is natural, and I also support your right to say christians are shameful. In return I ask that you support my right to say closed-minded people are morons. Are you surprised by this?

However where I draw the line isn't where the school has drawn the line. The school feels the need to provide a safe environment for children to learn it. As such, allowing speech that allows *anyone* to feel uncomfortable shouldn't be allowed. By the rules the school laid down the kid can't say "homosexuality is shameful" and the others shouldn't be able to say "homosexuality is ok."

You have a feeling that it isn't that easy being openly homosexual and being in school. What about those that think homosexuality is shameful being in a school that actively supports homosexuality? Don't you think it would be difficult for them to be in that school? Why is it ok to make one group feel better by making another feel worse?

If the school wants a "safe" environment, free of the prejudices and all the other baggage, then it needs to remember that there are people on both sides of the fence and it is their responsiblity to make sure everyone feels welcome.

And it would be ok to say that being black is ok too without anyone having the right to say otherwise, you are stretching this discussion. Thinking that it is shameful is ok with me, wearing a t-shirt saying it is no more ok with me than to do it with any other group. Trust me, if it would have been any of my kids he wouldn't have worn that shirt to school, he wouldn't have worn a shirt with a swastika on either, or KKK or anything like that.

I cannot understand why the school SHOULDN'T provide a safe environment for the children to learn. I would expect nothing less from a school i send my kids to.

 

[Kilrsat]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

Originally posted by: djheater
The "Day of Silence was not school sponsored or authorized.

Anti-gay T-shirts spark suspensions
wataugademocrat.com North Carolina ^


Posted on 04/27/2004 9:41:25 PM PDT by chance33_98




Anti-gay T-shirts spark suspensions

04/26/2004 By Scott Nicholson

A free speech and dress code controversy blossomed at Watauga High School on April 21 when students wore T-shirts apparently intending to counter a student action designed to support gays.

April 21 was a ?Day of Silence,? a voluntary student-led movement in which students go through the day without speaking to mark their support for gays.

High school principal Gary Childers said the observation was not endorsed, sponsored or initiated by the school or its faculty. He said three students were observed wearing cards announcing their participation, while perhaps 15 to 25 may have been participating in all.

link

Using the school's logic those 3 students wearing cards should have been suspended too. Afterall their cards are meant to incite hate against people like the student wearing the t-shirt at the same level as the t-shirt was meant to incite hate against homosexuals. So some hate demonstrations are allowed, some aren't. Nice policy.

I don't get where you come up with these things, think a little.

One of the cases is a student saying that being gay is shameful and the others is showing support for a group. If the cards said that christians are ignorant then it would be the same.

I just feel ashamed for the Christian fundies.

"Hitler was great!"

Is that support or hate? There are many ways to look at actions and speech. If you absolutely refuse to see any other meaning behind "Homosexuality is shameful" than hate then you have closed off your mind. It didn't say "Everyone beat up homosexuals," so it isn't a black and white case of a hateful message. If you stare at the cards identifying those supporting this day of silence, you can find hate as well. It wouldn't be a giant leap of logic to suggest that a person that views homosexuality as shameful to feel uncomfortable when those that support it start making their opinions visibly known in a location his is forced to be in. So is it ok for this kid to feel uncomfortable in school? Wasn't the point of the rules to make the school a relatively safe place to be, where you can focus on learning instead of the political ideologies of your peers?

If he can't express his view that homosexuality is shameful, then the other students shouldn't be able to express their view that homosexuality is acceptable. With an issue as charged as this one either both groups should be able to express their opinions or neither group should be able to. Allowing one but not the other sends a message that people in the opposing group are not welcome at that school.

Where do you draw the line? If support for a group is the same as saying that a group of people are "shameful" i assume that it would be ok with any group of people? Black people are shameful, would that be ok? How about Asians? or let's do it with religion, christians are shameful, would that be ok or is it just with sexual preference? Is it ok to have black history day but gays can't have their silence day?

The support they show for a group is obviously neccessary as this guy wore that t-shirt.

I have a feeling that it isn't all that easy to be openly homosexual and going to school, so i don't think there is ANY reason to make it more difficult for that group of people.

Bottom line, this is up to the school to decide, not you or me.

I draw the line where my right to live is impeeded by your fist. If you want to wear a "Blacks are shameful" shirt, that's your right.

An open forum with a constant sifting and winnowing of ideas. I support your right to say homosexuality is natural, and I also support your right to say christians are shameful. In return I ask that you support my right to say closed-minded people are morons. Are you surprised by this?

However where I draw the line isn't where the school has drawn the line. The school feels the need to provide a safe environment for children to learn it. As such, allowing speech that allows *anyone* to feel uncomfortable shouldn't be allowed. By the rules the school laid down the kid can't say "homosexuality is shameful" and the others shouldn't be able to say "homosexuality is ok."

You have a feeling that it isn't that easy being openly homosexual and being in school. What about those that think homosexuality is shameful being in a school that actively supports homosexuality? Don't you think it would be difficult for them to be in that school? Why is it ok to make one group feel better by making another feel worse?

If the school wants a "safe" environment, free of the prejudices and all the other baggage, then it needs to remember that there are people on both sides of the fence and it is their responsiblity to make sure everyone feels welcome.

And it would be ok to say that being black is ok too without anyone having the right to say otherwise, you are stretching this discussion. Thinking that it is shameful is ok with me, wearing a t-shirt saying it is no more ok with me than to do it with any other group. Trust me, if it would have been any of my kids he wouldn't have worn that shirt to school, he wouldn't have worn a shirt with a swastika on either, or KKK or anything like that.

I cannot understand why the school SHOULDN'T provide a safe environment for the children to learn. I would expect nothing less from a school i send my kids to.

That safe environment needs to exist for this kid as well then. Which means those parading around supporting homosexuality should be punished as well. As their speech, be it voice, t-shirt, or card on arm could create a feeling of being in an unwelcome and unsafe environment for a person that holds the belief that homosexuality is shameful.

The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't right that only "homosexuality is shameful" speech is being punished while "homosexuality is ok" speech is being protected. Both kinds of speech make someone feel unwelcome, therefore neither should be given preference.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: amcdonald
The majority of you guys are very close-minded.

First of all, it's school, so whether or not it's constitutional is moot because he has no rights to free speech.
That being said, people in America are overly-sensitive to gay issues right now.
If his shirt had read, "Pre-marital sex is shameful and immoral.", what would be the difference?
Is that not just as insensitive to those high-school students that are getting laid?

The very reason this kid wore the shirt is why this is an outrage to many people.
Gay/Bi/transexual people have been far more open with their lifestyle than in the past, and there is going to be a reaction to it.
No matter how many people think its right, there are those who simply disagree with it, and they have every right to do so.

This kid is obviously wearing the shirt to get a reaction out of his schoolmates.
This is silly to me though, if you are gay then why the hell would you care what this guy thinks...
Its like straight people getting upset because a gay guy wears a shirt that says being straight is immoral. Who cares what he thinks?
Get some thicker skin and grow up, because the only people that don't get offended in this life are those who don't ever interact.

Yeah, cuz straight bashing happens a lot, loads of kids are ashamed to be straight and would hate to tell their parents about it.

There is a problem, the problem is that society at large view gays as abnormalities, some will go to extreme lenghts to punish them for not being straight, until you fix that, such a t-shirt is just stupid and unneccessary.

When you grow up you might realize that there is a problem with this whole thing.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

Originally posted by: djheater
The "Day of Silence was not school sponsored or authorized.

Anti-gay T-shirts spark suspensions
wataugademocrat.com North Carolina ^


Posted on 04/27/2004 9:41:25 PM PDT by chance33_98




Anti-gay T-shirts spark suspensions

04/26/2004 By Scott Nicholson

A free speech and dress code controversy blossomed at Watauga High School on April 21 when students wore T-shirts apparently intending to counter a student action designed to support gays.

April 21 was a ?Day of Silence,? a voluntary student-led movement in which students go through the day without speaking to mark their support for gays.

High school principal Gary Childers said the observation was not endorsed, sponsored or initiated by the school or its faculty. He said three students were observed wearing cards announcing their participation, while perhaps 15 to 25 may have been participating in all.

link

Using the school's logic those 3 students wearing cards should have been suspended too. Afterall their cards are meant to incite hate against people like the student wearing the t-shirt at the same level as the t-shirt was meant to incite hate against homosexuals. So some hate demonstrations are allowed, some aren't. Nice policy.

I don't get where you come up with these things, think a little.

One of the cases is a student saying that being gay is shameful and the others is showing support for a group. If the cards said that christians are ignorant then it would be the same.

I just feel ashamed for the Christian fundies.

"Hitler was great!"

Is that support or hate? There are many ways to look at actions and speech. If you absolutely refuse to see any other meaning behind "Homosexuality is shameful" than hate then you have closed off your mind. It didn't say "Everyone beat up homosexuals," so it isn't a black and white case of a hateful message. If you stare at the cards identifying those supporting this day of silence, you can find hate as well. It wouldn't be a giant leap of logic to suggest that a person that views homosexuality as shameful to feel uncomfortable when those that support it start making their opinions visibly known in a location his is forced to be in. So is it ok for this kid to feel uncomfortable in school? Wasn't the point of the rules to make the school a relatively safe place to be, where you can focus on learning instead of the political ideologies of your peers?

If he can't express his view that homosexuality is shameful, then the other students shouldn't be able to express their view that homosexuality is acceptable. With an issue as charged as this one either both groups should be able to express their opinions or neither group should be able to. Allowing one but not the other sends a message that people in the opposing group are not welcome at that school.

Where do you draw the line? If support for a group is the same as saying that a group of people are "shameful" i assume that it would be ok with any group of people? Black people are shameful, would that be ok? How about Asians? or let's do it with religion, christians are shameful, would that be ok or is it just with sexual preference? Is it ok to have black history day but gays can't have their silence day?

The support they show for a group is obviously neccessary as this guy wore that t-shirt.

I have a feeling that it isn't all that easy to be openly homosexual and going to school, so i don't think there is ANY reason to make it more difficult for that group of people.

Bottom line, this is up to the school to decide, not you or me.

I draw the line where my right to live is impeeded by your fist. If you want to wear a "Blacks are shameful" shirt, that's your right.

An open forum with a constant sifting and winnowing of ideas. I support your right to say homosexuality is natural, and I also support your right to say christians are shameful. In return I ask that you support my right to say closed-minded people are morons. Are you surprised by this?

However where I draw the line isn't where the school has drawn the line. The school feels the need to provide a safe environment for children to learn it. As such, allowing speech that allows *anyone* to feel uncomfortable shouldn't be allowed. By the rules the school laid down the kid can't say "homosexuality is shameful" and the others shouldn't be able to say "homosexuality is ok."

You have a feeling that it isn't that easy being openly homosexual and being in school. What about those that think homosexuality is shameful being in a school that actively supports homosexuality? Don't you think it would be difficult for them to be in that school? Why is it ok to make one group feel better by making another feel worse?

If the school wants a "safe" environment, free of the prejudices and all the other baggage, then it needs to remember that there are people on both sides of the fence and it is their responsiblity to make sure everyone feels welcome.

And it would be ok to say that being black is ok too without anyone having the right to say otherwise, you are stretching this discussion. Thinking that it is shameful is ok with me, wearing a t-shirt saying it is no more ok with me than to do it with any other group. Trust me, if it would have been any of my kids he wouldn't have worn that shirt to school, he wouldn't have worn a shirt with a swastika on either, or KKK or anything like that.

I cannot understand why the school SHOULDN'T provide a safe environment for the children to learn. I would expect nothing less from a school i send my kids to.

That safe environment needs to exist for this kid as well then. Which means those parading around supporting homosexuality should be punished as well. As their speech, be it voice, t-shirt, or card on arm could create a feeling of being in an unwelcome and unsafe environment for a person that holds the belief that homosexuality is shameful.

The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't right that only "homosexuality is shameful" speech is being punished while "homosexuality is ok" speech is being protected. Both kinds of speech make someone feel unwelcome, therefore neither should be given preference.

You still don't get my point.

Saying that it's ok to be christian, black, jew, asian does not entitle someone to say that it is shameful to be a part of that group, that would be insulting to that particular group, support for a targeted group is one thing insulting a select group is another.

You don't believe that it is ok to support a group without having others insulting that group as a balance?

 

[Kilrsat]

You still don't get my point.

Saying that it's ok to be christian, black, jew, asian does not entitle someone to say that it is shameful to be a part of that group, that would be insulting to that particular group, support for a targeted group is one thing insulting a select group is another.

You don't believe that it is ok to support a group without having others insulting that group as a balance?

Supporting something can be insult, when viewed from the other camp. Look above, "Hitler was great. We need to do that again." Is that supportive speech or is that hate speech? Yes, that's an extreme example, but it gets the point across. Would it have been better if his shirt said "I support God damning homosexuals to hell?" There its just offering support for his cause.

With politically charged issues showing support can be considered hateful by the other camp. If you protect one side, you need to protect the other.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: NuclearNed
Freedom of speech doesn't apply to just those who think a particular way. The idea behind freedom of speech is that you can speak what you believe, regardless of who is going to be offended - and somone somewhere will always be offended by strongly held beliefs. He should be allowed to wear the shirt.

Freedom of speech doesn't apply at all in school. He is free to say what he wishes and the school is free to suspend him because of it.

Bingo... why'd the thread go on beyond this?! It seems there have been several cases that have all said the same thing. (otherwise, dress codes wouldn't be valid in any public school)

 

[0roo0roo]

lol yea, the threads gone on way too long. free speech at school.. u musta gone to some hippy school if u had actual free speech at yours

 

[amcdonald]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: amcdonald
The majority of you guys are very close-minded.

First of all, it's school, so whether or not it's constitutional is moot because he has no rights to free speech.
That being said, people in America are overly-sensitive to gay issues right now.
If his shirt had read, "Pre-marital sex is shameful and immoral.", what would be the difference?
Is that not just as insensitive to those high-school students that are getting laid?

The very reason this kid wore the shirt is why this is an outrage to many people.
Gay/Bi/transexual people have been far more open with their lifestyle than in the past, and there is going to be a reaction to it.
No matter how many people think its right, there are those who simply disagree with it, and they have every right to do so.

This kid is obviously wearing the shirt to get a reaction out of his schoolmates.
This is silly to me though, if you are gay then why the hell would you care what this guy thinks...
Its like straight people getting upset because a gay guy wears a shirt that says being straight is immoral. Who cares what he thinks?
Get some thicker skin and grow up, because the only people that don't get offended in this life are those who don't ever interact.

Yeah, cuz straight bashing happens a lot, loads of kids are ashamed to be straight and would hate to tell their parents about it.

There is a problem, the problem is that society at large view gays as abnormalities, some will go to extreme lenghts to punish them for not being straight, until you fix that, such a t-shirt is just stupid and unneccessary.

When you grow up you might realize that there is a problem with this whole thing.

I think you are
missing my point.
By considering American society's intolerance to homosexuality a 'problem', you are voicing your opinion.
You have to realize that those intolerant people have the same right to vocalize their opinions.
If you wear a shirt that says "I support gay relationships because Americans have the freedom to do what they want with their lives.", anyone else should be able to wear a shirt that says "I think that gay people should be ashamed of their lifestyle because the bible deems it sinful."
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.
Just because one group is smaller than the other, it doesn't mean they deserve special treatment.
If a white kid goes to a mostly black high school, should he be able to sue because he feels unwelcome or intimidated? or vice versa? No, you can move, or you can deal with it. This is all a part of growing up.


I didn't say that there isn't a existing problem, I'm saying that this is an expected reaction to the problem.
Just as the homophobe will have to deal with gay people in his life, the gay person will have to deal with intolerant homophobes.
Oh well. Sorry. That's life.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

You still don't get my point.

Saying that it's ok to be christian, black, jew, asian does not entitle someone to say that it is shameful to be a part of that group, that would be insulting to that particular group, support for a targeted group is one thing insulting a select group is another.

You don't believe that it is ok to support a group without having others insulting that group as a balance?

Supporting something can be insult, when viewed from the other camp. Look above, "Hitler was great. We need to do that again." Is that supportive speech or is that hate speech? Yes, that's an extreme example, but it gets the point across. Would it have been better if his shirt said "I support God damning homosexuals to hell?" There its just offering support for his cause.

With politically charged issues showing support can be considered hateful by the other camp. If you protect one side, you need to protect the other.

Your argument doesn't work, you can't compare support for homosexuals to support for Hitler, puhleeease try something else, it get's no point across at all unless you can show me in what way homosexuals have harmed any other group, least of all killed millions of another group, actually, your comparison is in itself an insult towards homosexuals.

Actually i find your belitteling of Hitlers deeds disgraceful at best.

Your secon dargument would still be an insult as it targets the damning of a specific group, i cannot see how support for homosexuals does the same, your entire argument is a fallacy.

Protect who from who? Christians from homosexuals? I hope you are joking.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: amcdonald

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: amcdonald
The majority of you guys are very close-minded.

First of all, it's school, so whether or not it's constitutional is moot because he has no rights to free speech.
That being said, people in America are overly-sensitive to gay issues right now.
If his shirt had read, "Pre-marital sex is shameful and immoral.", what would be the difference?
Is that not just as insensitive to those high-school students that are getting laid?

The very reason this kid wore the shirt is why this is an outrage to many people.
Gay/Bi/transexual people have been far more open with their lifestyle than in the past, and there is going to be a reaction to it.
No matter how many people think its right, there are those who simply disagree with it, and they have every right to do so.

This kid is obviously wearing the shirt to get a reaction out of his schoolmates.
This is silly to me though, if you are gay then why the hell would you care what this guy thinks...
Its like straight people getting upset because a gay guy wears a shirt that says being straight is immoral. Who cares what he thinks?
Get some thicker skin and grow up, because the only people that don't get offended in this life are those who don't ever interact.

Yeah, cuz straight bashing happens a lot, loads of kids are ashamed to be straight and would hate to tell their parents about it.

There is a problem, the problem is that society at large view gays as abnormalities, some will go to extreme lenghts to punish them for not being straight, until you fix that, such a t-shirt is just stupid and unneccessary.

When you grow up you might realize that there is a problem with this whole thing.

I think you are
missing my point.
By considering American society's intolerance to homosexuality a 'problem', you are voicing your opinion.
You have to realize that those intolerant people have the same right to vocalize their opinions.
If you wear a shirt that says "I support gay relationships because Americans have the freedom to do what they want with their lives.", anyone else should be able to wear a shirt that says "I think that gay people should be ashamed of their lifestyle because the bible deems it sinful."
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.
Just because one group is smaller than the other, it doesn't mean they deserve special treatment.
If a white kid goes to a mostly black high school, should he be able to sue because he feels unwelcome or intimidated? or vice versa? No, you can move, or you can deal with it. This is all a part of growing up.


I didn't say that there isn't a existing problem, I'm saying that this is an expected reaction to the problem.
Just as the homophobe will have to deal with gay people in his life, the gay person will have to deal with intolerant homophobes.
Oh well. Sorry. That's life.

And that would work with blacks, asians, jews, christians and other groups in the same way?

Your argument is just stupid, so a racist has to deal with other races and other races should have to deal with the racist? Is that it?

In school too? Ok, thankfully you don't get to decide that.

 

[spidey07]

klixxer,

You really, really don't get it.

Can you not see you are being hypocritical? Expressing opinions is OK, as long as you agree with them?

 

[Kilrsat]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

You still don't get my point.

Saying that it's ok to be christian, black, jew, asian does not entitle someone to say that it is shameful to be a part of that group, that would be insulting to that particular group, support for a targeted group is one thing insulting a select group is another.

You don't believe that it is ok to support a group without having others insulting that group as a balance?

Supporting something can be insult, when viewed from the other camp. Look above, "Hitler was great. We need to do that again." Is that supportive speech or is that hate speech? Yes, that's an extreme example, but it gets the point across. Would it have been better if his shirt said "I support God damning homosexuals to hell?" There its just offering support for his cause.

With politically charged issues showing support can be considered hateful by the other camp. If you protect one side, you need to protect the other.

Your argument doesn't work, you can't compare support for homosexuals to support for Hitler, puhleeease try something else, it get's no point across at all unless you can show me in what way homosexuals have harmed any other group, least of all killed millions of another group, actually, your comparison is in itself an insult towards homosexuals.

Actually i find your belitteling of Hitlers deeds disgraceful at best.

Your secon dargument would still be an insult as it targets the damning of a specific group, i cannot see how support for homosexuals does the same, your entire argument is a fallacy.

Protect who from who? Homosexuals from christians? I hope you are joking.

I didn't compare homosexuals to hitler, I was demonstration how even "supportive" speech can be hateful and insulting, apparently it worked.

Public schools are not a place for brainwashing about issues. The students have a right to believe that homosexuality is both ok or shameful and both beliefs should be protected. One group shouldn't be allowed to parade their belief in front of the other. That is, if the environment you're going for is a "safe and welcoming of all people" type of place.

If you strongly believed that your God explicitly states that homosexuality is wrong, and homosexual supporters are allowed to parade homosexuality in your face at what is supposed to be a neutral place of learning, how can you not see why you need protection? The fact that what you firmly believe in is allowed and supported at an institution you are forced to be present at demands that your right to believe what you wish to believe needs protecting. Being in that environment is insulting to the person, because you're systematically telling them "you're wrong, we're right, ha ha."

 

[Idex]

Sigh... what are we coming to...

 

[jyates]

Never heard of the "day of silence" is this something new?

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: NuclearNed
Freedom of speech doesn't apply to just those who think a particular way. The idea behind freedom of speech is that you can speak what you believe, regardless of who is going to be offended - and somone somewhere will always be offended by strongly held beliefs. He should be allowed to wear the shirt.

Freedom of speech doesn't apply at all in school. He is free to say what he wishes and the school is free to suspend him because of it.

Umm there have been recent cases where a school district was ordered to pay a teenage girl who is a lesbian because they made her change/suspended her for wearing a pro homosexual shirt. I forgot the exact wording. If people are allowed to wear pro gay shirts, the opposing view should be allowed to wear anti gay shirts as well.

 

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

You still don't get my point.

Saying that it's ok to be christian, black, jew, asian does not entitle someone to say that it is shameful to be a part of that group, that would be insulting to that particular group, support for a targeted group is one thing insulting a select group is another.

You don't believe that it is ok to support a group without having others insulting that group as a balance?

Supporting something can be insult, when viewed from the other camp. Look above, "Hitler was great. We need to do that again." Is that supportive speech or is that hate speech? Yes, that's an extreme example, but it gets the point across. Would it have been better if his shirt said "I support God damning homosexuals to hell?" There its just offering support for his cause.

With politically charged issues showing support can be considered hateful by the other camp. If you protect one side, you need to protect the other.

Your argument doesn't work, you can't compare support for homosexuals to support for Hitler, puhleeease try something else, it get's no point across at all unless you can show me in what way homosexuals have harmed any other group, least of all killed millions of another group, actually, your comparison is in itself an insult towards homosexuals.

Actually i find your belitteling of Hitlers deeds disgraceful at best.

Your secon dargument would still be an insult as it targets the damning of a specific group, i cannot see how support for homosexuals does the same, your entire argument is a fallacy.

Protect who from who? Homosexuals from christians? I hope you are joking.

I didn't compare homosexuals to hitler, I was demonstration how even "supportive" speech can be hateful and insulting, apparently it worked.

Public schools are not a place for brainwashing about issues. The students have a right to believe that homosexuality is both ok or shameful and both beliefs should be protected. One group shouldn't be allowed to parade their belief in front of the other. That is, if the environment you're going for is a "safe and welcoming of all people" type of place.

If you strongly believed that your God explicitly states that homosexuality is wrong, and homosexual supporters are allowed to parade homosexuality in your face at what is supposed to be a neutral place of learning, how can you not see why you need protection? The fact that what you firmly believe in is allowed and supported at an institution you are forced to be present at demands that your right to believe what you wish to believe needs protecting. Being in that environment is insulting to the person, because you're systematically telling them "you're wrong, we're right, ha ha."

So basically you took something completely unrelated that cannot be applied to the situation and used it to demonstrate something that has nothing to do with the discussion? What was the point of that?

The students have a right to believe whatever they want to, i am not disputing that, but they do not have the right to insult a specific group, and now i think i have stated that point well over a hundred times in this thread. You just bring some crazy argument not applicable into the discussion and keep ignoring that very point.

If i did strongly believe in that my god explicity states that homosexuality is wrong, i would keep that opinion to myself and those who believe what i do, christians tend to forget the most important message of Jesus so they can rack down on others and feel good about themselves.

 

[Amorphus]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: NuclearNed
Freedom of speech doesn't apply to just those who think a particular way. The idea behind freedom of speech is that you can speak what you believe, regardless of who is going to be offended - and somone somewhere will always be offended by strongly held beliefs. He should be allowed to wear the shirt.

Freedom of speech doesn't apply at all in school. He is free to say what he wishes and the school is free to suspend him because of it.

Bingo... why'd the thread go on beyond this?! It seems there have been several cases that have all said the same thing. (otherwise, dress codes wouldn't be valid in any public school)

Until the judicial system stops enforcing made-up "rights" like the removal of any religious material from government property, and women's right to "choose", then the "right to free speech in school" shall remain. School is not only a medium for education, it's also a medium for socialization and learning things other than the books, which is what our culture now views school as. The Constitution will not try to stand in the way of an overwhelming culture majority.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: spidey07
klixxer,

You really, really don't get it.

Can you not see you are being hypocritical? Expressing opinions is OK, as long as you agree with them?

This is freedom of expression in Germany (where Klixxer lives): it's misdemeanor and an $800 fine to make an obscene gesture to another person.

Just one more Euro-troll who has no idea what freedom really is (and would be too afraid to live in freedom anyway)... :roll:

 

[Kilrsat]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Kilrsat

You still don't get my point.

Saying that it's ok to be christian, black, jew, asian does not entitle someone to say that it is shameful to be a part of that group, that would be insulting to that particular group, support for a targeted group is one thing insulting a select group is another.

You don't believe that it is ok to support a group without having others insulting that group as a balance?

Supporting something can be insult, when viewed from the other camp. Look above, "Hitler was great. We need to do that again." Is that supportive speech or is that hate speech? Yes, that's an extreme example, but it gets the point across. Would it have been better if his shirt said "I support God damning homosexuals to hell?" There its just offering support for his cause.

With politically charged issues showing support can be considered hateful by the other camp. If you protect one side, you need to protect the other.

Your argument doesn't work, you can't compare support for homosexuals to support for Hitler, puhleeease try something else, it get's no point across at all unless you can show me in what way homosexuals have harmed any other group, least of all killed millions of another group, actually, your comparison is in itself an insult towards homosexuals.

Actually i find your belitteling of Hitlers deeds disgraceful at best.

Your secon dargument would still be an insult as it targets the damning of a specific group, i cannot see how support for homosexuals does the same, your entire argument is a fallacy.

Protect who from who? Homosexuals from christians? I hope you are joking.

I didn't compare homosexuals to hitler, I was demonstration how even "supportive" speech can be hateful and insulting, apparently it worked.

Public schools are not a place for brainwashing about issues. The students have a right to believe that homosexuality is both ok or shameful and both beliefs should be protected. One group shouldn't be allowed to parade their belief in front of the other. That is, if the environment you're going for is a "safe and welcoming of all people" type of place.

If you strongly believed that your God explicitly states that homosexuality is wrong, and homosexual supporters are allowed to parade homosexuality in your face at what is supposed to be a neutral place of learning, how can you not see why you need protection? The fact that what you firmly believe in is allowed and supported at an institution you are forced to be present at demands that your right to believe what you wish to believe needs protecting. Being in that environment is insulting to the person, because you're systematically telling them "you're wrong, we're right, ha ha."

So basically you took something completely unrelated that cannot be applied to the situation and used it to demonstrate something that has nothing to do with the discussion? What was the point of that?

The students have a right to believe whatever they want to, i am not disputing that, but they do not have the right to insult a specific group, and now i think i have stated that point well over a hundred times in this thread. You just bring some crazy argument not applicable into the discussion and keep ignoring that very point.

If i did strongly believe in that my god explicity states that homosexuality is wrong, i would keep that opinion to myself and those who believe what i do, christians tend to forget the most important message of Jesus so they can rack down on others and feel good about themselves.

Your argument was that only supportive speech is ok, so I gave supportive speech that probably is not ok to prove the point that not all supportive speech is good. See how easy it is?

Yes, you've stated over and over that only happy-go-lucky, I'm ok, you're ok speech should be allowed. And I've tried to show you over and over that even happy-go-lucky, I'm ok, you're ok speech can be hateful and insulting.

I'm glad that you would keep your mouth shut if that's what you believed, then why can't the people that believe homosexuality is ok just keep their mouth shut too? Everyone wins then!

Do you think in school sponsored sporting events their should be a "winning team" and the "team that didn't win" instead of a "losing team" so as not to hurt anyone's feelings?

 

[Imdmn04]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: NuclearNed
Freedom of speech doesn't apply to just those who think a particular way. The idea behind freedom of speech is that you can speak what you believe, regardless of who is going to be offended - and somone somewhere will always be offended by strongly held beliefs. He should be allowed to wear the shirt.

Freedom of speech doesn't apply at all in school. He is free to say what he wishes and the school is free to suspend him because of it.

Umm there have been recent cases where a school district was ordered to pay a teenage girl who is a lesbian because they made her change/suspended her for wearing a pro homosexual shirt. I forgot the exact wording. If people are allowed to wear pro gay shirts, the opposing view should be allowed to wear anti gay shirts as well.

This is a different case, pro-gay shirts don't really offend straight people, anti-gay offends specifically gay people. Which can cause controversies in schools.

School is an institution of education, the goal is to learn, anything that interferes with this process will be banned. Anti-gay shirts distrubs the education process, because it is inflammatory.

Supreme court long ago has decided that freedom of speech doesn't really apply in school, acutally I take that back, it does. However nothing can interfere the process of education, and I mean nothing. Education is the most important priority, if you disturb the education process, EVEN if you are expressing your personal opinion thinkin that you are protected by the consititution, you are still outta luck.

 

[amcdonald]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: amcdonald

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: amcdonald
The majority of you guys are very close-minded.

First of all, it's school, so whether or not it's constitutional is moot because he has no rights to free speech.
That being said, people in America are overly-sensitive to gay issues right now.
If his shirt had read, "Pre-marital sex is shameful and immoral.", what would be the difference?
Is that not just as insensitive to those high-school students that are getting laid?

The very reason this kid wore the shirt is why this is an outrage to many people.
Gay/Bi/transexual people have been far more open with their lifestyle than in the past, and there is going to be a reaction to it.
No matter how many people think its right, there are those who simply disagree with it, and they have every right to do so.

This kid is obviously wearing the shirt to get a reaction out of his schoolmates.
This is silly to me though, if you are gay then why the hell would you care what this guy thinks...
Its like straight people getting upset because a gay guy wears a shirt that says being straight is immoral. Who cares what he thinks?
Get some thicker skin and grow up, because the only people that don't get offended in this life are those who don't ever interact.

Yeah, cuz straight bashing happens a lot, loads of kids are ashamed to be straight and would hate to tell their parents about it.

There is a problem, the problem is that society at large view gays as abnormalities, some will go to extreme lenghts to punish them for not being straight, until you fix that, such a t-shirt is just stupid and unneccessary.

When you grow up you might realize that there is a problem with this whole thing.

I think you are
missing my point.
By considering American society's intolerance to homosexuality a 'problem', you are voicing your opinion.
You have to realize that those intolerant people have the same right to vocalize their opinions.
If you wear a shirt that says "I support gay relationships because Americans have the freedom to do what they want with their lives.", anyone else should be able to wear a shirt that says "I think that gay people should be ashamed of their lifestyle because the bible deems it sinful."
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.
Just because one group is smaller than the other, it doesn't mean they deserve special treatment.
If a white kid goes to a mostly black high school, should he be able to sue because he feels unwelcome or intimidated? or vice versa? No, you can move, or you can deal with it. This is all a part of growing up.


I didn't say that there isn't a existing problem, I'm saying that this is an expected reaction to the problem.
Just as the homophobe will have to deal with gay people in his life, the gay person will have to deal with intolerant homophobes.
Oh well. Sorry. That's life.

And that would work with blacks, asians, jews, christians and other groups in the same way?

Your argument is just stupid, so a racist has to deal with other races and other races should have to deal with the racist? Is that it?

In school too? Ok, thankfully you don't get to decide that.

Yes, that's my point.
But that's just how life is, it's not an argument.

If you are black, you will eventually have to deal with someone who has prejudged you because of your skin color. The same is true with EVERYONE, regardless of their place in society. Obviously certain situations are subject to more discrimination the others, but prejudice is a fact of life. You cannot change the way people think with laws and wishful thinking.

If you had read my first post, I noted that the initial argument is moot because free speech does not apply to public schools.

Here's an example of how life works:

I went to a magnet school to get a better education.
I'm white.
I was beat up by black kids after a few weeks.
I left.

So it goes.

 

[GTaudiophile]

APPLAUSE!!!

He can wear such a shirt if he was forced to be silent on that day or whatever crap they wanted the students to do.

 

[Cobalt]

Originally posted by: SaigonK
Typical liberal bullshit......

My god you ignorant pos. You deserve to be banned for saying something so stupid. Don't starting labeling something that isn't political. Oh, and btw, isn't Bush against gay marriage. One more thing, I think this could just be me but... isn't he a conservative? And "Christian"? You are an utter moron.

 

[Mookow]

The Constitution of the United States of America was not amended to protect free speech in order to protect people's right to say things such as:
-"I think kittens are cute"
-"Lets have a group hug!"
-"The sky is blue today."

It was amended to protect unpopular speech. Such as the BS spouted by the KKK. On the infrequent occasions I hear of the KKK being granted a permit to demonstrate, I am happy about the news. Because of two things:
-It proves you are still allowed to say what you want to say in America, even if you are obviously full of sh!t.
-There is always a bigger counter-demonstration of people AGAINST the KKK, because the KKK is a group of ignorant a$$holes.

The problem your stereotypical liberal has with free speech is that they consider it the best thing ever, until they disagree with it. But they dont admit the last part. They praise being open minded and accepting all viewpoints, EXCEPT the "traditional" (and rather closeminded) viewpoint, which somehow is excluding from the idea of "all viewpoints". People that do disagree with them are using "hate speech", so its OK to ban that :roll: . Now, people from the religious right want to ban homosexuality (basically), because legislating morality has always succeeded :roll: . But, think about this: if you replaced the term "immoral" in the rhetoric of the religious right with "hateful" or "ignorant", it starts to look really similar to the rhetoric of the left. My conclusion: ban people who agree with either viewpoint from speaking their minds!







That last sentence was a joke. But seriously, you cannot truthfully call yourself a proponent of free speech if you wish to limit the ability of people who disagree with you to speak out. Even if their words are hateful, ignorant, biased, or just the dumbest thing since someone decided to play catch with a rattlesnake.

 

[Mookow]

Originally posted by: cobalt

Originally posted by: SaigonK
Typical liberal bullshit......

My god you ignorant pos. You deserve to be banned for saying something so stupid. Don't starting labeling something that isn't political. Oh, and btw, isn't Bush against gay marriage. One more thing, I think this could just be me but... isn't he a conservative? And "Christian"? You are an utter moron.

ROFL. I hope that was sarcasm. If so, :beer::beer:. If not, you need to think about the fact that in a thread about free speech, you just advocated silencing someone's ability to voice their opinions, because you think they are wrong.