School's out for... protesting?

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/12/10/michigan-schools-closed-due-to-mass-teacher-sick-out/

Lol, it's all about the kids.... right?

It's asinine for these teachers to be skipping school to throw a tantrum like they are. Do they stop and think how they are affecting the kids, their parents, and the other teachers/district employees that may be hourly and now won't get paid? Seriously? Bunch of selfish pricks IMO. BTW, that keith jackson guy doesn't seem to know much about Unions - if he did, he'd know that once the people of Michigan are giving the CHOICE after RTW is put in place - he can make sure that his union doesn't have to provide services to those who choose not to be in one. All it takes is for them to read the law and form an appropriate union. F'n thieves.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
what? you still think its about the kids? the union is telling them to do this so they do it.
 

theevilsharpie

Platinum Member
Nov 2, 2009
2,322
14
81
The Fine Article said:
Detroit Federation of Teachers President Keith Johnson last week told WWJ Newsradio 950 he’s not sure his union could survive the passage of right-to-work. Johnson said many teachers could opt out of paying their dues, but the union would still be forced to provide services for them anyway, such as contract negotiations and arbitration.

In non-RTW states, non-union members in a union shop are still forced to pay union dues. I can understand how that would be annoying.

But isn't this swinging the pendulum too far the other way? If Michigan goes RTW, why should a union be forced to provide services for non-due-paying members?
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,561
4
0
In non-RTW states, non-union members in a union shop are still forced to pay union dues. I can understand how that would be annoying.

But isn't this swinging the pendulum too far the other way? If Michigan goes RTW, why should a union be forced to provide services for non-due-paying members?

Because RTW is all about ending unions and lowering workers wages and benefits.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
As the son of teachers and a lifelong supporter of the importance of education, it always strikes me as despicable when people paint a teacher strike as something "against the kids." "Won't somebody think of the children?!!?" You shouldn't be able to make it harder for people to work and hide behind children as an excuse. Hell, didn't we get a chorus of right-wingers on here telling us a few weeks ago that all the layoffs after Obama got elected were just and right because there are "consequences for your actions?" Or does that line of reasoning only go one way?

Take responsibility for your actions because I can't be bothered to take responsibility for my own.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
As the son of teachers and a lifelong supporter of the importance of education, it always strikes me as despicable when people paint a teacher strike as something "against the kids." "Won't somebody think of the children?!!?" You shouldn't be able to make it harder for people to work and hide behind children as an excuse. Hell, didn't we get a chorus of right-wingers on here telling us a few weeks ago that all the layoffs after Obama got elected were just and right because there are "consequences for your actions?" Or does that line of reasoning only go one way?

Take responsibility for your actions because I can't be bothered to take responsibility for my own.

you are right. this is all about the kids and family.

its about making them get a baby sitter, screwing the kid on a education.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
In non-RTW states, non-union members in a union shop are still forced to pay union dues. I can understand how that would be annoying.

But isn't this swinging the pendulum too far the other way? If Michigan goes RTW, why should a union be forced to provide services for non-due-paying members?

Why don't people ever understand reality instead of just lapping up the BS.

Unions do not HAVE to, they choose to because they chose to form that way. The simple remedy for them is to recharter themselves so they don't have to represent those that don't want represented by them. It's a WIN WIN no? Oh except for those pesky things like power and money. The union doesn't want to give the worker the choice because they know they'll likely loose the +1 headcount and their dues.
 
Feb 6, 2007
16,432
1
81
Really? I've never lived in a non-RTW state yet my salary has grown 450% in the past 22 years and my benefits have gotten better rather than worse during the same time frame.
Your experience is clearly directly applicable to every teacher in Michigan because every single job in the world is identical in every regard.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Why don't people ever understand reality instead of just lapping up the BS.

Unions do not HAVE to, they choose to because they chose to form that way. The simple remedy for them is to recharter themselves so they don't have to represent those that don't want represented by them. It's a WIN WIN no? Oh except for those pesky things like power and money. The union doesn't want to give the worker the choice because they know they'll likely loose the +1 headcount and their dues.

Except it's not "win win". Right to work is a big win for employers and a big loss for employees. Instead of it being some big selfish conspiracy, maybe these teachers are just protesting a law that they think is screwing them over while they do an important job that few of us would want for less than impressive pay.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,570
7,631
136
In non-RTW states, non-union members in a union shop are still forced to pay union dues. I can understand how that would be annoying.

But isn't this swinging the pendulum too far the other way? If Michigan goes RTW, why should a union be forced to provide services for non-due-paying members?

What services?

Where does one learn about the sort of things a bill like this does?
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,875
10,300
136
What services?

Where does one learn about the sort of things a bill like this does?

Unions negotiate for wages, benefits and work conditions. Companies generally give the same wages and benefits to people who opt out of the union, or else they would just join the union. So the union provides the service of getting those people the same wage and benefits as union members without them paying dues.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
In non-RTW states, non-union members in a union shop are still forced to pay union dues. I can understand how that would be annoying.

Annoying? That isn't even close to the word I would have used.

But isn't this swinging the pendulum too far the other way? If Michigan goes RTW, why should a union be forced to provide services for non-due-paying members?

A union should not be forced to provide services for non-due paying (non)members. If the current law is that way for whatever reason it is wrong and should be repealed. Exactly what is unfair about that?
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,328
126
Unions negotiate for wages, benefits and work conditions. Companies generally give the same wages and benefits to people who opt out of the union, or else they would just join the union. So the union provides the service of getting those people the same wage and benefits as union members without them paying dues.

So people should be financially obligated to pay for a service they never requested nor authorized?
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,505
27,802
136
Sure is a lot of hatred for teachers on this forum. Must be a lot of poor students here.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
Sure is a lot of hatred for teachers on this forum. Must be a lot of poor students here.

I doubt many hate teaches (i would say none..but there are some that are rather ignorant on what they really do). I do hate the teachers union though. After my wife dealt with them and reading s hit like this? yeah.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
When have union teachers ever given a damn about students? All they see are $$$ signs, not kids.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
0
It's not just Teachers.

They hate anything American.

Glad to see they are getting so pissed off, hopefully they will leave the country ASAP.

You live in one of the biggest cesspools in the United States and you're complaining about the stench. Most of the country smells a lot better then Chicrapgo.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
As the son of teachers and a lifelong supporter of the importance of education, it always strikes me as despicable when people paint a teacher strike as something "against the kids." "Won't somebody think of the children?!!?" You shouldn't be able to make it harder for people to work and hide behind children as an excuse. Hell, didn't we get a chorus of right-wingers on here telling us a few weeks ago that all the layoffs after Obama got elected were just and right because there are "consequences for your actions?" Or does that line of reasoning only go one way?

Take responsibility for your actions because I can't be bothered to take responsibility for my own.
They only made it harder for bad teachers to work, and made the unions have to earn their dues rather than having the government force employees to contract the union for representation.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,429
3,533
126
Heh - I knew this would be posted here today.

I cannot speak for the other schools but I know that Taylor schools is not closed just so they can go protest. It doesn't suprise me that their administration wants everyone to think that although they never come out and state it as fact:

Superintendent says teachers are likely going to be at protests in Lansing over right-to-work. She said she had heard from a principal about where the teachers were going.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/Taylor-schools-to-close-Tuesday-as-teachers-head-to-Lansing/-/1719418/17720160/-/xorcq6/-/index.html

Good - lets use hearsay from a single principle to cover all of the schools in the district. I wasn't aware that a single principle could speak for the actions of all the teachers in all 17 schools.

We happen to be friends with a large number of Taylor teachers who were over Sunday for football. While this day was chosen to coincide with the vote - it was about far more than the vote.

The teachers have been without a contract for around 3 years. The district was supposed to give them a new contract at the start of the school year. The district had asked for 10% paycut over the next 2 years, health care cost increases this coming year totaling ~$1200 a year for two or $1600 for a family of four. That would make it 4 years in a row that wages have gone down while heath care costs have risen.

Somewhere along the line that became 16% pay cuts over the next three years, doubling heath care costs next year and unspecified cost increases the following year. So, as of the start of last week - which both sides had agreed would be the last week of negotiations before they agreed on a deal on Friday - the Teacher's Union had stepped up and agreed to the original proposal.

Unfortunately the administration cancelled the Monday meeting to reschedule for Friday. On Friday - the deadline mind you - the administration sent representatives to reiterate that they were no longer interested in just 10% cuts but wanted 16% over three years and higher heath care costs. The people they sent - on the day negotiations were supposed to be finalized - did not have the authority to negotiate!

So - while the administration continues to fuck around with the teachers the teachers are leaving in droves. There was a tie in last year's teacher of the year award at Taylor. One is already moved on from teaching there and the other will likely move on as well. I know a couple more excellent teachers that have had people at other schools reach out and encourage them to apply for open positions at their school district. The best and brightest have seen the writing on the wall and are getting out. I expect that soon Taylor will be left only with the teachers that don't care or those that aren't good enough to move elsewhere. Given that the district is not exactly known for well behaved or motivated kids I am sure this will foster a great learning environment

Shame on the administration for diverting attention and shame on the useless* union reps for letting it happen

*From all the stories I have heard their representation is useless. They didn't want to release a statement about the negotiations for fear it could harm their position. For some reason they did not realize that the administration would
 
Last edited:

radhak

Senior member
Aug 10, 2011
843
14
81
So teachers should suck it up, even when royally buggered? When auto-workers strike, or Walmart workers walk away, there's applause. So why should teachers be martyrs? And don't bother with the crap of 'because kids are suffering'. Kids have suffered more because teachers are the most crapped-upon group in the US. A badly paid, under motivated teacher is only going to dish out what s/he receives - careless attention.

The best - the only - way of ensuring high, positive impact on kids' education (even their whole lives) is to treat teachers at the level of other professionals that need similar high education and motivation - doctors, engineers etc. Have you stopped to wonder why the guy you examines your teeth for 20 minutes earns many fold the salary of a teacher that molds your child's mind for the entire day, for the whole year? I'd rather suffer a badly treated tooth than submit my children to indifferent teaching.

I'm only amazed that there still are great teachers around despite every thing. They must truly love teaching, and we must be thankful to them for that.
 
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