Schrodinger's Cat. WTF.

KDOG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,525
14
81
Ok my brain is officially jello trying to understand that thought experiment. Cat in a box with a radioactive counter and a flask of acid? Is it alive or dead? Can someone sum this up for me in normal speak? It one of those things that have me sitting here crosseyed bumbling my lips with my finger b-b-b-b-b-b-b......
 

FleshLight

Diamond Member
Mar 18, 2004
6,883
0
71
The cat is both alive and dead at the same time according to a certain interpretation of quantum mechanics.
 

Alone

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2006
7,490
0
0
Since you can't observe it's state, presumably it is both dead and alive.

Now, to me, this concept makes absolutely no sense. Since it can't be both, I will assume it's EITHER dead OR alive, not both. In this case, observing something will not change the outcome.

Though I'm sure someone smarter than I will come along and call me an idiot and keep rephrasing excerpts from Wikipedia.
 

coxmaster

Diamond Member
Dec 14, 2007
3,017
3
81
Ok my brain is officially jello trying to understand that thought experiment. Cat in a box with a radioactive counter and a flask of acid? Is it alive or dead? Can someone sum this up for me in normal speak? It one of those things that have me sitting here crosseyed bumbling my lips with my finger b-b-b-b-b-b-b......

Yes. Yes it is
 

Mike Gayner

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2007
6,175
3
0
Schrodinger's point wasn't that the cat is both alive and dead - his point was that it's silly to think that we can apply quantum principles to every day life. The whole thought experiment exists to point out the absurdity of trying to do this, and yet everything thinks it's supposed to be a genuine representation of the quantum effects on daily life.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Its only an interpretation of QM. These mysterious interpretations only make things more complicated and hard to understand. Its much simpler to just apply the equations and forget about the stupid interpretations.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Once we observe that the cat is dead and close the box, does it go back to the alive/dead state?
 

Mike Gayner

Diamond Member
Jan 5, 2007
6,175
3
0
Its only an interpretation of QM. These mysterious interpretations only make things more complicated and hard to understand. Its much simpler to just apply the equations and forget about the stupid interpretations.

Except that the maths is way way way too complicated for 99.9% of people to understand. The only thing us norms can do is look at the interpretations.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
Schrodinger's point wasn't that the cat is both alive and dead - his point was that it's silly to think that we can apply quantum principles to every day life. The whole thought experiment exists to point out the absurdity of trying to do this, and yet everything thinks it's supposed to be a genuine representation of the quantum effects on daily life.

Stick to character will ya? We just got the troll badge with your name on it from the shop and then you go posting something that makes sense. I tell ya, the youts of today have got no consideration.
 

Matthiasa

Diamond Member
May 4, 2009
5,755
23
81
Once we observe that the cat is dead and close the box, does it go back to the alive/dead state?

Nope.
Besides the atoms in the cat would observe themselves, so it would never actually be both dead and alive.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Except that the maths is way way way too complicated for 99.9% of people to understand. The only thing us norms can do is look at the interpretations.

Maybe for more advanced QM that might be true, but for the simplest cases, it isn't that hard.
 

Leros

Lifer
Jul 11, 2004
21,867
7
81
I had a quantum physicist once tell me that not even quantum physicists really understand quantum physics.
 

KDOG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,525
14
81
I had a quantum physicist once tell me that not even quantum physicists really understand quantum physics.

LOL. Then I don't feel so bad about not understanding all that quantum physics stuff....
 

TheLonelyPhoenix

Diamond Member
Feb 15, 2004
5,594
1
0
The event of the atom decaying and throwing radiation has a certain probability of happening over a given amount of time. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics states that until you make an observation of what happened, then both outcomes are true at the same time (superposition). Schrödinger's cat is an example intended to show how that leads to a paradox - the cat must be alive and dead at the same time until you open the box and look at it. The example is now commonly used to illustrate the differences between different theories of quantum mechanics.
 

Analog

Lifer
Jan 7, 2002
12,755
3
0
Schrödinger was in the camp of Einstein and Planck and was a classical physicist. He was against the quantum nature of atoms, and came up with his wave equation after formalizing what DeBroglie interpreted as the wave nature of matter. Schrödinger wanted to disprove the discrete states and won the approval of those other more traditional classical physicists with his equation.

On the other side was Bohr, Heisenberg, Born and Pauli. They were the true quantum mechanics physicists that believed strongly in discrete quantum states, i.e. based chiefly on Heisenberg's matrix mechanics. Born was more the mathematician and interpreted Schrödinger's wave equation as more than just waves, but probability outcomes.

This exceedingly frustrated Schrödinger, and so like his ally Einstein, came up with a thought experiment to disprove the probability interpretation of his wave equation once and for all. So he came up with the though experiment of Schrödinger's cat (Einstein came up with these thought experiments all the time).

Schrödinger's cat was supposed to disprove the quantum nature of matter, because it was to be interpreted to be obsurd (how can a cat be both dead and alive?). But in the decades since, it has served to more demonstrate the strangeness of quantum systems. Quantum mechanics, much to the chagrin of Schrödinger, was and is still here to stay. Every prediction it has made has been proven so far. Einstein never liked it, he thought that someday it would be revealed as part of a bigger theory - he didn't like God throwing the dice.. D:

HTH
 

Nik

Lifer
Jun 5, 2006
16,101
2
56
Every nonzero finite dimensional inner product space has an orthonormal basis. It makes sense, when you don't think about it.
 

KDOG

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,525
14
81
Schrödinger was in the camp of Einstein and Planck and was a classical physicist. He was against the quantum nature of atoms, and came up with his wave equation after formalizing what DeBroglie interpreted as the wave nature of matter. Schrödinger wanted to disprove the discrete states and won the approval of those other more traditional classical physicists with his equation.

On the other side was Bohr, Heisenberg, Born and Pauli. They were the true quantum mechanics physicists that believed strongly in discrete quantum states, i.e. based chiefly on Heisenberg's matrix mechanics. Born was more the mathematician and interpreted Schrödinger's wave equation as more than just waves, but probability outcomes.

This exceedingly frustrated Schrödinger, and so like his ally Einstein, came up with a thought experiment to disprove the probability interpretation of his wave equation once and for all. So he came up with the though experiment of Schrödinger's cat (Einstein came up with these thought experiments all the time).

Schrödinger's cat was supposed to disprove the quantum nature of matter, because it was to be interpreted to be obsurd (how can a cat be both dead and alive?). But in the decades since, it has served to more demonstrate the strangeness of quantum systems. Quantum mechanics, much to the chagrin of Schrödinger, was and is still here to stay. Every prediction it has made has been proven so far. Einstein never liked it, he thought that someday it would be revealed as part of a bigger theory - he didn't like God throwing the dice.. D:

HTH



Oh thats' MUCH clearer....LOL. (Actually I got the jist of that...)
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
Since you can't observe it's state, presumably it is both dead and alive.

Now, to me, this concept makes absolutely no sense. Since it can't be both, I will assume it's EITHER dead OR alive, not both. In this case, observing something will not change the outcome.

The way it was explained to me was that it was a box you can't see into. If you open the box, it lets the cat escape, so observing it directly affects the state of it.

A better example was opening a freezer to see if ice had formed. Doing this in a hot environment prevents ice from forming because it lets a bunch of hot air into the freezer. Looking at the state of ice forming has a direct influence on whether or not ice has formed.
 

TheLonelyPhoenix

Diamond Member
Feb 15, 2004
5,594
1
0
The way it was explained to me was that it was a box you can't see into. If you open the box, it lets the cat escape, so observing it directly affects the state of it.

A better example was opening a freezer to see if ice had formed. Doing this in a hot environment prevents ice from forming because it lets a bunch of hot air into the freezer. Looking at the state of ice forming has a direct influence on whether or not ice has formed.

No, you're thinking of the observer effect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)
 
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