Schrodinger's Cat. WTF.

[Paratus]

Wanted: Schrodinger's Cat. Dead AND Alive

FTFY Techs

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

I made a Schrodinger's Cat reference talking to this girl last Thursday.

Her response was, "well I ran over the box so the cat is dead."

 

[Analog]

Wanted: Schrodinger's Cat. Dead or Alive

see sig

 

[polarmystery]

For a real quantum system... yes.

I thought that once the state has been observed, the system collapses into that state?

 

[SphinxnihpS]

Ok my brain is officially jello trying to understand that thought experiment. Cat in a box with a radioactive counter and a flask of acid? Is it alive or dead? Can someone sum this up for me in normal speak? It one of those things that have me sitting here crosseyed bumbling my lips with my finger b-b-b-b-b-b-b......

This "Double Slit Experiment" video will explain everything you need to know.

 

[Ninjahedge]

Ya see? Light and time have this strange relationship.

Even if you put several hours between the release of one photon and another, they will still behave as if they were released at the same time (the banding I believe. Forgive me if I make an error in remembering this w/o tagging the link).


Makes an interesting problem though:

1. Does this only apply to energies that are exposed to the same physical restraints at the respective times they pass?

2. If you wanted to "see" the future, could you deliberately place things like this around, shoot a photon through it and determine if there will be another that goes through it?

 

[uclaLabrat]

I made a Schrodinger's Cat reference talking to this girl last Thursday.

Her response was, "well I ran over the box so the cat is dead."

When is her ring going to be ready?

 

[ShawnD1]

When is her ring going to be ready?

I just need to put it on her finger

 

[crashtestdummy]

The way it was explained to me was that it was a box you can't see into. If you open the box, it lets the cat escape, so observing it directly affects the state of it.

A better example was opening a freezer to see if ice had formed. Doing this in a hot environment prevents ice from forming because it lets a bunch of hot air into the freezer. Looking at the state of ice forming has a direct influence on whether or not ice has formed.

This is somewhat true, but also misleading. The problem lies in the assumption of what variables have "fixed" numbers. On the macro scale, we tend to assume that things like velocity and location are known, deterministic values. In reality, an object is described as a wave function without precise velocity and location, but give an error smaller than we care to observe.

Take, as a grossly simplified example, a sound wave. If you want to make a strongly defined, very sudden pulse, you make a pulse.

The problem is, that as you make that pulse tighter, it becomes harder to break it down into specific frequencies (or pitches). Similarly, you can have a single tone wave that provides well defined frequency:

But the wave must go through at least a full cycle before you are able to discern a single tone. Thus, two things intuitively unconnected, time of pulse and tone, are actually mutually exclusive in their precision. However, no matter what sound you make, there is a very real wave function, even if you can't give an exact time and tone.

So look at the cat again. The mistake is in assuming that being alive or dead is a strictly deterministic state. In reality, the cat's state (at least from the perspective of anyone other than the cat), is matched to the wave function relating to the radioactive decay. The wave function is very much real and determined, but does not give you a precise piece of information on time of death that you assume exists. However, as the half lives pile up, the probability that the cat's state will collapse to dead when you view it will increase infinitely close to 100% certainty with infinite time.

 

[Trey22]

K, I'm rocking back and forth too trying to wrap my brain around all of this.

 

[Ninjahedge]

CTD... I think you can determine "frequency" on a pulse based on the estimation of a half-wave. I am not sure if it can be perceived as such.

I seem to remember also needing an infinite series of wave equasions to make the equivalent of a non-harmonic tone (one that does not repeat....ever).....

Fourier Transforms I believe?

But aren't we starting to muddy up sonic and EM here?

 

[MotF Bane]

I had a quantum physicist once tell me that not even quantum physicists really understand quantum physics.

I had a quantum physicist once tell me that some quantum physicists really understand quantum physics.

 

[Kyteland]

Sixty Signals will explain it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxqTtiWxs4

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Wanted: Schrodinger's Cat. Dead AND Alive

Fixed...

 

[DougK62]

While we're on the subject, how do you pronounce "Schrodinger"? A hard "g" or a soft "g"? I've always wondered.

 

[shortylickens]

Cat?
WTF?

 

[Leros]

I had a quantum physicist once tell me that some quantum physicists really understand quantum physics.

Well, my quantum physicist can beat up your quantum physicist.

 

[MotF Bane]

Well, my quantum physicist can beat up your quantum physicist.

But observing them might change the result. :awe:

 

[Leros]

But observing them might change the result. :awe:

I concede. You win!

 

[TecHNooB]

I thought the key to the thought experiment was the fact that there's a 50% chance of the cat being dead or alive but 50% probability isn't well defined or something.

 

[Analog]

I thought the key to the thought experiment was the fact that there's a 50% chance of the cat being dead or alive but 50% probability isn't well defined or something.

No. Quantum theory says the cat is simultaneously both dead and alive until it is observed.

 

[cKGunslinger]

 

[Baasha]

Schrodinger's Cat is a famous thought experiment to illustrate the quixotic nature of...nature (ie Quantum Mechanics).

The most simple explanation is that in QM, the observer is NOT independent of that which is being observed!

In QM, all potential states are possible and "true" and only when an observation is made, the wavefunction collapses; in other words, the object that is being observed "collapses" into a particular 'energy' state.

The "Schrodinger's Cat" experiment is a satire of that principle; that the cat is perennially alive AND dead until it is directly observed, when it "collapses" into "living" OR "dead".

Modern scientists, that is, people who cannot transcend the five senses and/or the mind, give an excuse using some gobble-de-beloved patriot called "hidden variables". What they really mean is, "We have no clue but the universe is playing hide and seek with us!" They explain that the collapse of the wavefunction happens before the observation due to 'hidden variables'. This is because if they agreed with the premise of the Schrodinger's Cat experiment, that means ALL states at ALL instances of time are ALWAYS true until they are observed!

The idea that the observer and the object of observation are independent and separate is the mistake that scientists had made and still continue to do so. This perplexing conundrum is clearly described in Vedanta and the gist of it is that there is ultimately NO SEPARATION between the observer, the act of observation, as well as the object of observation.

It should also be noted that Erwin Schrodinger was a Vedantist and deeply interested in Upanishadic philosophy that espouses a "All is One" philosophy.

 

[TecHNooB]

No. Quantum theory says the cat is simultaneously both dead and alive until it is observed.

And the fact that the probability is 50% doesn't play a role?

 

[silverpig]

I thought that once the state has been observed, the system collapses into that state?

It does during the measurement yes, but the system will evolve again as soon as you remove the measuring influence.

Think of it this way: You've got a rubber ball in a sealed dark box and it's bouncing around like crazy. You don't know where the ball is in the box, so you say it's "everywhere" with "equal probability". You have a camera which is hooked up to a glass window on the side of the box and a flash. You take a picture. The flash lights up the ball and the camera takes its picture. You can see exactly where the ball is at that time (the wavefunction collapses from "it's everywhere" to "it's right there", but after the measurement, the system continues to evolve.