Schwarzenegger calls special vote

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
I really like the proposal, I'd like to see this get passed, unions are part of what is wrong in the US currently. I like to Republicans finally working towards fiscal responsibility and sustainable growth. I must say, Schwarzenegger's policies have impressed me (of course I'm not 100% informed on them, what i've seen i've liked)...he's been pushing the green technology, progressing Cali's global environmental leadership, continuing with stemcell research and keeping the books in check. Why can't all republicans be like this!!

linkage
Schwarzenegger, opponents move to campaign mode
By BETH FOUHY -- Associated Press

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and the Democratic and labor forces that oppose him switched into full campaign mode after the governor made official what he has threatened for months -- a special election to change the way state government does business.

Schwarzenegger announced Monday that he had signed a proclamation calling a special election for Nov. 8, only the fifth special election in California since 1910. He wants voters to consider measures that would cap state spending, strip lawmakers of their power to draw legislative boundaries and increase the amount of time it takes public school teachers to get tenure.

He also is likely to endorse a measure curbing public employee unions' ability to raise political contributions from member dues. That move will almost certainly produce fierce opposition from national unions who view the measure as a blow to organized labor. Democrats oppose it because they draw substantial campaign funding from unions.

The summer months in a non-election year typically offer a lull in the political campaign cycle, but the prospect of a special election this fall promises a costly face-off between the governor's political team and deep-pocketed Democratic interest groups.

"The summer is thought of as kind of a quiet time, but we don't intend to be quiet," said Barbara Kerr, president of the California Teachers Association.

To illustrate that point, the teachers union voted over the weekend to assess a one-time $60 increase on member dues to raise as much as $50 million to fight the governor's initiatives.

"We're going to do what it takes, and money is part of it," Kerr said. "We can't do $100,000 chicken dinners like he can."

The governor has scheduled campaign events in Southern California on Tuesday and Wednesday on behalf of his proposed spending cap. He also was expected to continue making the argument framed in his latest round of campaign commercials: that a spending cap is necessary to keep Democrats from proposing further tax increases.

"Our door will be open 24 hours a day to any Democrat who is serious about negotiating," Schwarzenegger campaign strategist Todd Harris said. "But they haven't been serious before, and we can't wait forever."

The governor and his allies already have raised and spent about $15 million to qualify his initiatives for the ballot. He is set to raise about $30 million more before the November election.

Democrats, meanwhile, have called the ballot initiatives a Republican power grab with potentially devastating consequences for public health and education. A coalition of interest groups, including nurses, teachers and public employee unions, plans to continue protesting Schwarzenegger at his public appearances and running ads on television and radio.

The California Nurses Association, which has fought Schwarzenegger over his efforts to block lower nurse-to-patient staffing ratios, said it intends to mount a national campaign suggesting Schwarzenegger is using California as a staging ground for social policies supported by the Bush administration.

The group also is in discussion with consumer groups to organize a boycott of products sold by Schwarzenegger's corporate donors, especially drug companies.

Rose Ann DeMoro, executive director of the nurses union, declined to disclose her organization's budget but said the money would be used primarily for grass roots organizing.

Gale Kaufman, a Democratic consultant who is organizing the labor coalition's campaign efforts, said the group would continue to attack Schwarzenegger's decision to hold the special election before developing separate campaigns against each initiative.

"In any campaign, you build momentum and you focus activity when people start to pay attention," Kaufman said. "We'll be watching what he does, and we won't leave anything to chance."
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Stunt
I like to Republicans finally working towards fiscal responsibility and sustainable growth.

I must say, Schwarzenegger's policies have impressed me (of course I'm not 100% informed on them, what i've seen i've liked)...he's been pushing the green technology, progressing Cali's global environmental leadership, continuing with stemcell research and keeping the books in check.

Why can't all republicans be like this!!

From what I have seen he has been all talk on those issues.

So far his real agenda has been a march to turn California Red as in Republican only which is the real reason for calling this "special" election.

Nice try, play again.
 

PatboyX

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2001
7,024
0
0
i dont agree that "unions are part of what is wrong."
i think that is probably true to a certain extent as far as individuals abusing the system but im very much pro-union.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: PatboyX
i dont agree that "unions are part of what is wrong."
i think that is probably true to a certain extent as far as individuals abusing the system but im very much pro-union.

Unions have their place however it seems like their place is to rape the hell out of employers.

Airline industry + car industry are collapsing thanks in part to unions. They have effectively managed to drive wages so high the companies cant even be close to competing.

Govt workers unions have burned the tax payers long enough. Friends who work for the govt are recieving 14% of their income as a pension for retirement. I worked for a larger company and that was about 5 times higher than the private market. On top of that they match contributions upto some ridiculous number of 10 or more % of salary.

I think this is a positive measure if it can be passed.

Now if he could get the repubs at the federal level to be as fiscally conservative.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Schwarzenegger announced Monday that he had signed a proclamation calling a special election for Nov. 8, only the fifth special election in California since 1910. He wants voters to consider measures that would cap state spending, strip lawmakers of their power to draw legislative boundaries and increase the amount of time it takes public school teachers to get tenure.
About the only aspect I like about these proposals is the measure that would cap state spending. Otherwise, it sounds like a blatant power grab to me.
 

PatboyX

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2001
7,024
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: PatboyX
i dont agree that "unions are part of what is wrong."
i think that is probably true to a certain extent as far as individuals abusing the system but im very much pro-union.

Unions have their place however it seems like their place is to rape the hell out of employers.

Airline industry + car industry are collapsing thanks in part to unions. They have effectively managed to drive wages so high the companies cant even be close to competing.

Govt workers unions have burned the tax payers long enough. Friends who work for the govt are recieving 14% of their income as a pension for retirement. I worked for a larger company and that was about 5 times higher than the private market. On top of that they match contributions upto some ridiculous number of 10 or more % of salary.

I think this is a positive measure if it can be passed.

Now if he could get the repubs at the federal level to be as fiscally conservative.


i think you and i would disagree as to what caused/is causing the collapse of certain industries that you mention.
but i do recognize that unions can be abused. i am, however, hesitant to remove them from the equation. partially because i dont see the same sort of hardcore opposition to companies who place lobbyists in places of power to "regulate" that same business. i think its just easy to use unions as a scapegoat.

 

chowderhead

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 1999
2,633
263
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: PatboyX
i dont agree that "unions are part of what is wrong."
i think that is probably true to a certain extent as far as individuals abusing the system but im very much pro-union.

Unions have their place however it seems like their place is to rape the hell out of employers.

Airline industry + car industry are collapsing thanks in part to unions. They have effectively managed to drive wages so high the companies cant even be close to competing.

Govt workers unions have burned the tax payers long enough. Friends who work for the govt are recieving 14% of their income as a pension for retirement. I worked for a larger company and that was about 5 times higher than the private market. On top of that they match contributions upto some ridiculous number of 10 or more % of salary.

I think this is a positive measure if it can be passed.

Now if he could get the repubs at the federal level to be as fiscally conservative.

First, I think blaming unions in part for the "collapse" of the airline industry (Southwest Airlines being one of the most heavily unionized airlines) or car companies is disingenuous. Market competition will weed out the poorly managed companies. Everyone congratulates the CEOs when they make millions and times are good but it is unions that take the blame when CEOs make bad decisions. What is to protect workers when poorly managed companies wipe out pensions and fire everyone - nothing if the workers are not united as a block. I am not saying unions are perfect but there has to be a countervailing force against corporations that only care to maximize profits for shareholders.
Back on topic:
Pension reform is not one of the 4+ ballot measures on this special election.
14% of total income (?) for pension sounds pretty low IMO especially since in my experience comparable private sector jobs pay more than public sector jobs.

This special election will cost California $40-80 million dollars. What is the rush? Here are the measures that have qualified:
Caps on spending which is already required by the state constitution in the form on a balanced budget, teacher tenure reform (from 2 to 5 years), union dues checkoff, and "non-partisan" reapportionment along with possibly two competing drug subsidy bills, a parental notification bill that will not pass in pro-abortion California, and energy reregulation bill.

The governor is calling for this election this year so he can raise and spend millions this year while he would be barred from raising and spending millions for initiatives next time in 2006 when he would be on the ballot.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: chowderhead
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: PatboyX
i dont agree that "unions are part of what is wrong."
i think that is probably true to a certain extent as far as individuals abusing the system but im very much pro-union.

Unions have their place however it seems like their place is to rape the hell out of employers.

Airline industry + car industry are collapsing thanks in part to unions. They have effectively managed to drive wages so high the companies cant even be close to competing.

Govt workers unions have burned the tax payers long enough. Friends who work for the govt are recieving 14% of their income as a pension for retirement. I worked for a larger company and that was about 5 times higher than the private market. On top of that they match contributions upto some ridiculous number of 10 or more % of salary.

I think this is a positive measure if it can be passed.

Now if he could get the repubs at the federal level to be as fiscally conservative.

First, I think blaming unions in part for the "collapse" of the airline industry (Southwest Airlines being one of the most heavily unionized airlines) or car companies is disingenuous. Market competition will weed out the poorly managed companies. Everyone congratulates the CEOs when they make millions and times are good but it is unions that take the blame when CEOs make bad decisions. What is to protect workers when poorly managed companies wipe out pensions and fire everyone - nothing if the workers are not united as a block. I am not saying unions are perfect but there has to be a countervailing force against corporations that only care to maximize profits for shareholders.
Back on topic:
Pension reform is not one of the 4+ ballot measures on this special election.
14% of total income (?) for pension sounds pretty low IMO especially since in my experience comparable private sector jobs pay more than public sector jobs.

This special election will cost California $40-80 million dollars. What is the rush? Here are the measures that have qualified:
Caps on spending which is already required by the state constitution in the form on a balanced budget, teacher tenure reform (from 2 to 5 years), union dues checkoff, and "non-partisan" reapportionment along with possibly two competing drug subsidy bills, a parental notification bill that will not pass in pro-abortion California, and energy reregulation bill.

The governor is calling for this election this year so he can raise and spend millions this year while he would be barred from raising and spending millions for initiatives next time in 2006 when he would be on the ballot.


I am curious where you have worked that made 14% of your annual income into a pension account low.

I worked for a fortune 250 company and we werent anywhere near that. Try about a 5th to a 3rd depending on length of employment(3-5%).

btw I didnt say they are the sole reason but a part of it.
Jet Blue and SW may be unionized but they have the Union under control.

Jet Blue captain make about 120K a year and fly 76 hours a month. AA captains make about 360K a year and fly 36 hours a month.

Do the math and tell me which one is overpaying their pilots


 

chowderhead

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 1999
2,633
263
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: chowderhead

First, I think blaming unions in part for the "collapse" of the airline industry (Southwest Airlines being one of the most heavily unionized airlines) or car companies is disingenuous. Market competition will weed out the poorly managed companies. Everyone congratulates the CEOs when they make millions and times are good but it is unions that take the blame when CEOs make bad decisions. What is to protect workers when poorly managed companies wipe out pensions and fire everyone - nothing if the workers are not united as a block. I am not saying unions are perfect but there has to be a countervailing force against corporations that only care to maximize profits for shareholders.
Back on topic:
Pension reform is not one of the 4+ ballot measures on this special election.
14% of total income (?) for pension sounds pretty low IMO especially since in my experience comparable private sector jobs pay more than public sector jobs.

This special election will cost California $40-80 million dollars. What is the rush? Here are the measures that have qualified:
Caps on spending which is already required by the state constitution in the form on a balanced budget, teacher tenure reform (from 2 to 5 years), union dues checkoff, and "non-partisan" reapportionment along with possibly two competing drug subsidy bills, a parental notification bill that will not pass in pro-abortion California, and energy reregulation bill.

The governor is calling for this election this year so he can raise and spend millions this year while he would be barred from raising and spending millions for initiatives next time in 2006 when he would be on the ballot.


I am curious where you have worked that made 14% of your annual income into a pension account low.

I worked for a fortune 250 company and we werent anywhere near that. Try about a 5th to a 3rd depending on length of employment(3-5%).

btw I didnt say they are the sole reason but a part of it.
Jet Blue and SW may be unionized but they have the Union under control.

Jet Blue captain make about 120K a year and fly 76 hours a month. AA captains make about 360K a year and fly 36 hours a month.

Do the math and tell me which one is overpaying their pilots


[/quote]
Sorry for my misunderstanding, are you saying that the pension per month is 14% of current yearly income. Say $60,000 per year at 14% is $8,400 per month. Or are you saying the pension is $8,400 for the whole year? If it is per month, of course I would agree with you. 5% of 60,000 is pretty paltry IMO especially with the collective employee/employer contributions that were made through the years.

Anyway, workrules and pay salaries are part of running a business. Jetblue is newer with newer planes that need less maintenance. Their pilots have less seniority and probably few retirees. Both groups of management AGREED to the union contracts. It takes two sides to agree to a contract. It is not the problem of the unions if the management agreed to the contracts as the unions have given back a lot because of mismanagement i.e. did not hedge against higher fuel costs - hello Iraq war, antiquated hub and spokes business model, changes in business conditions i.e. fewer full fare business travellers.

Who is overpaying the pilots? It is the fault of the CEOs and their mismanagement.


 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
61
91
Schwarzenegger's a lame hypocrite. He ran against the amount Gray Davis had collected in campaign contributions, and in his short time in office, he's already taken multiples of that from special interests. :|

As long as he's already committed our state to wasting all that money on a special election, it may be a good time to start a recall petition on him. At least we won't be wasting any money he hasn't already committed to being wasted.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Schwarzenegger seems to be a bit different kind of a politician. To understand unions you have to of worked in one and seen the good and the bad. Unions do a lot of silly and stupid things and they push certain things too far. Generally, I would say that the level of stupidity of a Union is in direct response to the level of stupidity and igronance and cruelty shown by the managers of the companies they work for. If it was not for the mean things that management tries to do to employees we wouldnt need unions as much. Please remember that a company has the bloody pulpit when a strike starts and they can say anything they want, even if it is a lie. If the truth does not come out it is because of the press not doing their jobs. Mangers always get to explain their side and then it is up to the unions to prove them wrong. It is a position of assumed guilt.

I can remember working in 100+ heat all day and then the boss tells you you have to work 16 hours that day and if you dont they just fire you. I never understood the unions or management. However, it is management that agrees to and writes the contracts.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: chowderhead
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: chowderhead

First, I think blaming unions in part for the "collapse" of the airline industry (Southwest Airlines being one of the most heavily unionized airlines) or car companies is disingenuous. Market competition will weed out the poorly managed companies. Everyone congratulates the CEOs when they make millions and times are good but it is unions that take the blame when CEOs make bad decisions. What is to protect workers when poorly managed companies wipe out pensions and fire everyone - nothing if the workers are not united as a block. I am not saying unions are perfect but there has to be a countervailing force against corporations that only care to maximize profits for shareholders.
Back on topic:
Pension reform is not one of the 4+ ballot measures on this special election.
14% of total income (?) for pension sounds pretty low IMO especially since in my experience comparable private sector jobs pay more than public sector jobs.

This special election will cost California $40-80 million dollars. What is the rush? Here are the measures that have qualified:
Caps on spending which is already required by the state constitution in the form on a balanced budget, teacher tenure reform (from 2 to 5 years), union dues checkoff, and "non-partisan" reapportionment along with possibly two competing drug subsidy bills, a parental notification bill that will not pass in pro-abortion California, and energy reregulation bill.

The governor is calling for this election this year so he can raise and spend millions this year while he would be barred from raising and spending millions for initiatives next time in 2006 when he would be on the ballot.


I am curious where you have worked that made 14% of your annual income into a pension account low.

I worked for a fortune 250 company and we werent anywhere near that. Try about a 5th to a 3rd depending on length of employment(3-5%).

btw I didnt say they are the sole reason but a part of it.
Jet Blue and SW may be unionized but they have the Union under control.

Jet Blue captain make about 120K a year and fly 76 hours a month. AA captains make about 360K a year and fly 36 hours a month.

Do the math and tell me which one is overpaying their pilots
Sorry for my misunderstanding, are you saying that the pension per month is 14% of current yearly income. Say $60,000 per year at 14% is $8,400 per month. Or are you saying the pension is $8,400 for the whole year? If it is per month, of course I would agree with you. 5% of 60,000 is pretty paltry IMO especially with the collective employee/employer contributions that were made through the years.

Anyway, workrules and pay salaries are part of running a business. Jetblue is newer with newer planes that need less maintenance. Their pilots have less seniority and probably few retirees. Both groups of management AGREED to the union contracts. It takes two sides to agree to a contract. It is not the problem of the unions if the management agreed to the contracts as the unions have given back a lot because of mismanagement i.e. did not hedge against higher fuel costs - hello Iraq war, antiquated hub and spokes business model, changes in business conditions i.e. fewer full fare business travellers.

Who is overpaying the pilots? It is the fault of the CEOs and their mismanagement.


[/quote]


Yes 14% of your annual income. Where did you work that was higher?

btw walking out on the job and forcing the company to shut down isnt what I would call an agreement. That sounds more like extortion.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
Schwarzenegger's a lame hypocrite. He ran against the amount Gray Davis had collected in campaign contributions, and in his short time in office, he's already taken multiples of that from special interests. :|

As long as he's already committed our state to wasting all that money on a special election, it may be a good time to start a recall petition on him. At least we won't be wasting any money he hasn't already committed to being wasted.
Didn't he also raise taxes on Indian Gaming Casinos?
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: PatboyX
i dont agree that "unions are part of what is wrong."
i think that is probably true to a certain extent as far as individuals abusing the system but im very much pro-union.

Unions have their place however it seems like their place is to rape the hell out of employers.

Airline industry + car industry are collapsing thanks in part to unions. They have effectively managed to drive wages so high the companies cant even be close to competing.

Govt workers unions have burned the tax payers long enough. Friends who work for the govt are recieving 14% of their income as a pension for retirement. I worked for a larger company and that was about 5 times higher than the private market. On top of that they match contributions upto some ridiculous number of 10 or more % of salary.

I think this is a positive measure if it can be passed.

Now if he could get the repubs at the federal level to be as fiscally conservative.


14%???? My mom is a CA univesity professor and will get 75% or a little over 120K a year in reirement....though I don't think she'll ever retire she loves it.

Anyway I worked for the CARB and was set to get the same deal before I switched jobs to government contractor which offers similar deal. It's really better than government cause higher pay and they still have to abide by all those federal rules the feds have to if they want to do business witht he feds and states.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
I voted for him in 2003, and I plan on voting for this measure in the special vote.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Stunt
I like to Republicans finally working towards fiscal responsibility and sustainable growth.

I must say, Schwarzenegger's policies have impressed me (of course I'm not 100% informed on them, what i've seen i've liked)...he's been pushing the green technology, progressing Cali's global environmental leadership, continuing with stemcell research and keeping the books in check.

Why can't all republicans be like this!!

From what I have seen he has been all talk on those issues.

So far his real agenda has been a march to turn California Red as in Republican only which is the real reason for calling this "special" election.

Nice try, play again.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Get informed and come back again.
 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,795
84
91
yea, i hate those race based businesses. f*cking racist casinos is what they are.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
61
91
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
yea, i hate those race based businesses. f*cking racist casinos is what they are.
That's not my gripe. I think gambling casinos are a parasitic business that suck on human weakness but producing no real goods of their own.

There's a lot of Vegas money behind them, too, and I trust them about as far as I can throw them.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
61
91
Originally posted by: gsaldivar
Originally posted by: ntdz
I voted for him in 2003, and I plan on voting for this measure in the special vote.

Same here. :thumbsup:
THIS measure? Better check your reality, or at least your ability to count. He's put out three separate measures, and there'll be at least eight, including the others already announced.

Based on what I've seen, so far, I'll probably voting against most of them, but I'll wait until I read them more closely.
 

Votingisanillusion

Senior member
Nov 6, 2004
626
0
0
Schwarzenegger the admirer of Hitler is like...Hitler! A puppet of the billionaires. For example, a billionaire who sponsored Schwarzenegger into politics is Walmart's largest shareholder: Warren Buffet. Now come these measures. Cui bono? Who benefits? One of these proposals targets unions...Buffet's worst ennemy.
 

indianduddawg47

Senior member
Dec 29, 2001
275
0
0
i'll be voting yes on the three measures i saw... extend teachers tenure from 2 years to 5 years, have retired judges redraw the jerrymandered districts, and make spending caps.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: gsaldivar
Originally posted by: ntdz
I voted for him in 2003, and I plan on voting for this measure in the special vote.

Same here. :thumbsup:
THIS measure? Better check your reality, or at least your ability to count. He's put out three separate measures, and there'll be at least eight, including the others already announced.

Based on what I've seen, so far, I'll probably voting against most of them, but I'll wait until I read them more closely.

For some reason, I was under the impression it was all the same measure. Either way, I'm voting for the 3 I know about. I'll have to see the others before I know which way I'll vote on them.
 
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