Scots-Irish influence on the Deep South and American racism?

[eton975]

Was listening to Dixie (unofficial Confederate anthem) today. IMMEDIATELY noticed the similarity to a lot of Irish/Scottish music. Then I thought about how much influence the culture might have had and still has today in the US.

Looked at the Wikipedia page for Scotch-Irish Americans, which talked about how some of the cattle herding culture back in Ireland/Scotland bred a distrust for 'big gubberment' and created a strong 'right to arms' culture.

Heeeeeyyyy... wait a minute... ain't this pretty similar to the ideology of today's Republicans?

 

[Double Trouble]

Was listening to Dixie (unofficial Confederate anthem) today. IMMEDIATELY noticed the similarity to a lot of Irish/Scottish music. Then I thought about how much influence the culture might have had and still has today in the US.

Looked at the Wikipedia page for Scotch-Irish Americans, which talked about how some of the cattle herding culture back in Ireland/Scotland bred a distrust for 'big gubberment' and created a strong 'right to arms' culture.

Heeeeeyyyy... wait a minute... ain't this pretty similar to the ideology of today's Republicans?

Your title refers to a link between Scots-Irish influence and racism, yet nothing in your post says anything about racism, nor do you propose any way why Scots-Irish influence would have been more prevalent in the South than anywhere else.

You need to think through your position before you post, maybe then it would be more clear what you're trying to say other than "republicans evil".

 

[Moonbeam]

Your title refers to a link between Scots-Irish influence and racism, yet nothing in your post says anything about racism, nor do you propose any way why Scots-Irish influence would have been more prevalent in the South than anywhere else.

You need to think through your position before you post, maybe then it would be more clear what you're trying to say other than "republicans evil".

I thought his post was a racist attempt to peg Republicans as those disgusting Scotts-Irish. Me thinks the Wee Laddie might be a bit daft.

 

[eton975]

I thought his post was a racist attempt to peg Republicans as those disgusting Scotts-Irish. Me thinks the Wee Laddie might be a bit daft.

Wasn't what I meant, no. Just wondered if the ideology carried over.

 

[trenchfoot]

I'd be interested to see this topic thoroughly discussed here in this forum seeing as if my daughter married into an Irish-Catholic family in Georgia.

 

[IronWing]

I'd be interested to see this topic thoroughly discussed here in this forum seeing as if my daughter married into an Irish-Catholic family in Georgia.

Scots Irish != Irish Catholic. Most of the Scots Irish were Scottish Protestants who spent time in Ulster before sailing for America. Not really much Irish about them.

 

[MongGrel]

The US has always been an odd mix of cultures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boO4RowROiw

 

[unokitty]

...Heeeeeyyyy... wait a minute... ain't this pretty similar to the ideology of today's Republicans?

If you wanted to educate yourself, you could try reading Jim Webb

They came with nothing, and, for a complicated set of reasons, many of them still have nothing. Slurs stick to me, standing on these graves.

These people are too often misconstrued and ignored when America’s history is told. They did great things. And, in truth, the Scots-Irish (sometimes also called the Scotch-*Irish) are a force that still shapes our culture...

The Scots-Irish brought with them a strong, bottom-up individualism, largely inventing America’s unique populist-style democracy. They gave us at least a dozen Presidents, beginning with Andrew Jackson and including Chester A. Arthur, Ulysses S. Grant, Theodore Roosevelt (through his mother), Woodrow Wilson, Ronald Reagan (again, through his mother) and, most recently, Bill Clinton.

Then again, ignorant people, like the OP, are generally to busy spewing their hatred to bother with education...

Uno

 

[mammador]

yep, cos Jefferson was from Wales. Washington's ancestors were English.....there were some French and Germans who went there too in the pre and post 1783 period. But yep, no other European cultures were racist, right?

 

[WHAMPOM]

Was listening to Dixie (unofficial Confederate anthem) today. IMMEDIATELY noticed the similarity to a lot of Irish/Scottish music. Then I thought about how much influence the culture might have had and still has today in the US.

Looked at the Wikipedia page for Scotch-Irish Americans, which talked about how some of the cattle herding culture back in Ireland/Scotland bred a distrust for 'big gubberment' and created a strong 'right to arms' culture.

Heeeeeyyyy... wait a minute... ain't this pretty similar to the ideology of today's Republicans?

If you want to make an example of historical distrust of government look up the Irish inslaved to work on Royal Estates in the Colonies.

 

[Moonbeam]

Wasn't what I meant, no. Just wondered if the ideology carried over.

I was just funnen ya. I think what the Scots and Irish brought to America was IQ, and the Italians artistic design and craftsmanship.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I was just funnen ya. I think what the Scots and Irish brought to America was IQ, and the Italians artistic design and craftsmanship.

I think that's another instance showing how we are capable of gross generalizations. Everyone does it, but those lazily seeking an entire belief system or ideology to govern or live by a cookbook tend to do it more.

To the thread-posters in general, one has to consider that some portion of "Scots-Irish" came to these shores as indentured servants. That is, they obtained their passage by making themselves slaves.

It is, of course, true that American folk-music derives much from that of the Scotch and Irish. And just as true -- various local dialects of what we know as a generalized Southern accent have a similar striking resemblance or derivation. There is, for instance, a small island community off the coast of Virginia showing a most striking linguistic similarity.

Slavery has its roots in ancient times; perhaps racism does -- I couldn't say. Some think that racism is ingrained, like a genetic characteristic. It follows the idea that primitive tribal societies had a natural inclination to protect themselves, and there arose a consensual inclination to define an "other" or to distinguish peoples in an "us versus them" view.

But we no longer live or organize ourselves as small tribes of hunter-gatherers. So it is a vestigial psychology, and a trait that is simply learned.

No -- I think the analysis deserves instead to consider the ante-Bellum culture, the social pecking-order of different groups within that culture, and a natural inclination for a "need" to find some other group with which to feel superior. That view suggests that the lower one perceives oneself on the social ladder, the easier it is to foster bigotry and hatred toward someone on a lower rung. And it needs to be put in context of how the Civil War and Reconstruction impacted those aspects. For that, I'd send you to the Ken Burns series for PBS -- "The Civil War."

 

[Atreus21]

Was listening to Dixie (unofficial Confederate anthem) today. IMMEDIATELY noticed the similarity to a lot of Irish/Scottish music. Then I thought about how much influence the culture might have had and still has today in the US.

Looked at the Wikipedia page for Scotch-Irish Americans, which talked about how some of the cattle herding culture back in Ireland/Scotland bred a distrust for 'big gubberment' and created a strong 'right to arms' culture.

Heeeeeyyyy... wait a minute... ain't this pretty similar to the ideology of today's Republicans?

Isn't the American National Anthem based on an old drinking song from Scotland or something?

 

[pcgeek11]

Was listening to Dixie (unofficial Confederate anthem) today. IMMEDIATELY noticed the similarity to a lot of Irish/Scottish music. Then I thought about how much influence the culture might have had and still has today in the US.

Looked at the Wikipedia page for Scotch-Irish Americans, which talked about how some of the cattle herding culture back in Ireland/Scotland bred a distrust for 'big gubberment' and created a strong 'right to arms' culture.

Heeeeeyyyy... wait a minute... ain't this pretty similar to the ideology of today's Republicans?

What the hell does that have to do with the deep south and racism?

Racism is everywhere North, South, East and West. All countries and all races.

And Nobody should trust Big Government.

 

[kage69]

Could be. Lots of our founding fathers belonged to The Order of Scottish Freemasons IIRC.

I was surprised to learn that back in old Scotland, when there was a crisis/battle/invasion/whatever and troops had to be assembled from numerous clan territories, this would be communicated by a runner being sent to haul ass through these territories at night bearing a large burning cross.

:hmm:

Grandpa never mentioned that.

 

[Moonbeam]

BonzaiDuck: think that's another instance showing how we are capable of gross generalizations. Everyone does it, but those lazily seeking an entire belief system or ideology to govern or live by a cookbook tend to do it more.

M: I just wanted to give my version of how best to be bigoted, trying to stereotype positively rather than negatively.

BD: No -- I think the analysis deserves instead to consider the ante-Bellum culture, the social pecking-order of different groups within that culture, and a natural inclination for a "need" to find some other group with which to feel superior. That view suggests that the lower one perceives oneself on the social ladder, the easier it is to foster bigotry and hatred toward someone on a lower rung.

M: This notion provides evidence, I think, that we have self hate as the unconscious motivation for such need.

 

[Genx87]

Was listening to Dixie (unofficial Confederate anthem) today. IMMEDIATELY noticed the similarity to a lot of Irish/Scottish music. Then I thought about how much influence the culture might have had and still has today in the US.

Looked at the Wikipedia page for Scotch-Irish Americans, which talked about how some of the cattle herding culture back in Ireland/Scotland bred a distrust for 'big gubberment' and created a strong 'right to arms' culture.

Heeeeeyyyy... wait a minute... ain't this pretty similar to the ideology of today's Republicans?

Why dont you go read up on Irish slaves and get back to us. You may note they were considered less valuable than African slaves. Your theory has a major problem.

Then to answer your Scottish\Irish history and why they didn't trust govt. This one is easy and something you should be able to understand. Go watch Braveheart.

 

[John McCormack]

Most of the Scots Irish were Scottish Protestants who spent time in Ulster before sailing for America. Not really much Irish about them.

You're absolutely correct IronWing. But sadly, to this day, many Scottish Americans mistakenly think that they are Irish, or a blend of Irish and Scottish because of the confusing Scots-Irish label. And that label is actually an American invention. Before the Scottish from Northern Ireland came here, they were always known as Ulster Scots. Even to this day they are still known as Ulster Scots in the UK. The term Scots-Irish is unheard of in the UK.

 

[Jaskalas]

... a distrust for 'big gubberment' and created a strong 'right to arms' culture.

You mean like the founding father's rejection of His Majesty's Government, and their addition of the Second Amendment?

Scots are just jealous that we actually won our freedom. Where as they had to live with loss and subjugation. Who got the idea from who, laddie?

 

[pmv]

Isn't the American National Anthem based on an old drinking song from Scotland or something?

All these old tunes seem to get recycled and repurposed constantly. Seems as if in the olden days you didn't write a new tune, you just took an old one off the shelf and gave it new words.

What I find weird is how the US marines took one of their marching songs from the Monty Python theme music.

 

[DrDoug]

I have no doubt that there were/are racist Scots-Irish, just like there are racists of all kinds in our country. But the Scots-Irish in the south making racism what it is today? Nope. People teach others that crap, plain and simple.

I've been in to our family genealogy and several lines go back before Revolutionary War times so by now I'm an American mutt. There are English, Scots, Swedish, Irish, German, French, French-Canadian and more in just one lineage. They all start out in their own communities but my ancestors were the ones who moved to another state and married outside of their community.

That explains my doing the same...lol!

 

[WelshBloke]

What I find weird is how the US marines took one of their marching songs from the Monty Python theme music.

Seriously? Now I need to go look at a bunch of soldiers marching to that!

 

[pmv]

Seriously? Now I need to go look at a bunch of soldiers marching to that!

Er...well, it's an alternative interpretation of the facts. More serious than the Bowling Green massacre.

Watch a Presidential inaugeration and you find yourself expecting a giant animated foot to come down and squish the President.

 

[sandorski]

Er...well, it's an alternative interpretation of the facts. More serious than the Bowling Green massacre.

Watch a Presidential inaugeration and you find yourself expecting a giant animated foot to come down and squish the President.

Would have been nice. Bigly ratings.

 

[pmv]

I haven't even followed the Wikipedia link, but - and I could be wrong - I thought the Ulster Scots in the US were those guys in the Appalachians? (are they called 'hill billies' or is that derogatory?). I didn't think they had the power to make the whole US racist...they seem to be among the least powerful white people in the whole country.

It's absurd to blame US racism on one small ethnic group. It took a nation of millions to make racism what it was/is. I doubt 'anti-government' or 'pro-gun' sentiment is down to them either. Seems to me those things owe much more to the violent disspossesion of the original inhabitants, the long-lasting racial consequences of slavery, plus the sheer size of the country.

What I have heard, though, is that Ulster Scots played a significant and specific role in the British Empire - mainly they provided a disproportionate share of the colonial police and intelligence-gathering forces that helped keep down the natives in India and Africa.