SCSI - What kinds? Do I need it?

maxxy

Member
Apr 8, 2001
51
0
0
Dear Anandtechers,

Im intending on getting me a new rig and I was wondering if SCSI is the right choice for me? How much better are they than IDE drives? How well do they perform against the WD 80GB 8mb drive? What about against IDE RAID? What about noise/heat/reliability issues? Which are the best companies for SCSI?
Secondly, can anyone PLEASE explain to me what the hell are all those interfaces that scsi has: SCSI-2, SCSI-3, UW, U2W, LVD, SCA, Fiber channel, etc etc
Very confusing... doesn't help when deciding which SCSI card I should to get...

Cheers,

maxxy
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,098
126
Well, we don't know if it's the right choice, because we don't know what you need to do!

Are we talking games, DV editing, mixing, serving, what's your game?
 

Fulcrum

Senior member
May 9, 2002
709
0
71
If you have to ask, chances are you aren't doing anything with your computer that would make it worth the extra cost of SCSI over IDE. Go for one of the WD "Special Edition" 8mb cache drives. You could try IDE raid 0, but even then the extra performance may not be worth the extra risk of data loss if all do is basic computing tasks and gaming. Only my opinion.
 

BD231

Lifer
Feb 26, 2001
10,568
138
106
This is the low down, SCSI is fast as hell. Access times are extremely low and scsi makes short work of multitasking. The cons are, the drive's make a crap load of heat, noise and cost an arm and a leg. RAID is crap and completely pointless for your everyday computer use (gaming, download, internet, music ect.), you will see NO performance boost. The only situations that call for SCSI or RAID is when your: 1- transfering/working with extremely large files or doing some form of video editing, or 2- a speed freak who could care less about the amount of noise and heat your computer makes. SCSI and RAID are NOT worth it unless you fall under those 2 categories.
 

desktopsilver

Member
Jun 24, 2002
107
0
0
i say buy a used adaptec 29160 card in the forsale forum,,,,,,,and then go buy for 220$ a 15,000 rpm cheetah total investment with a 35 dollar cable==390$ for the heart and sole of your computer,,,,,no culdve beens here,,
 

desktopsilver

Member
Jun 24, 2002
107
0
0
uw uw2,scsi2 scsi 3,,,i think those are all progressions in max speed ,,,,lvd i think means low voltage disk aray which basicly means you can have a long cable and still transfer without loss,,,,,,68 pin =normal 80 pin is designed for harddrives that are remote, the 80 pin cable deliveres power to the harddrive as well as transfer data,,,ya what the heck is fiber channel,,,,by the way uw160 is the hottest out right now ,,,,soon to be uw 320 but the uw 320 wont have much to do with our home computers ,,,man i hoped i scored at least 50 percent on those answers ,,,i tried ,,,,,,also remember you most likley have a 32 bit pci slot as opposed to a server motherboard which has 64 bit pci slots which offers more band with most 64 bit pci cards are backward compatible with the 32 bit but make sure ,,,,and get a full size card if you order off of ebay as some are lowrise for going in to server setups
 

Emrys

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2002
1,055
0
76
Unless you are running a server, dont' bother with SCSI at the moment, specially if you arn't sure what you are playing with, SCSI can be a bit of a mess, but as most have said, mainly SCSI is spendy, lest you have a hook up, in wich case go for it. SCSI 160 is proly what you are looking for, the 320 drives arn't on the market yet, if I'm not mistaken, and the cards are just getting there, but they are very spendy(*I am waiting to get one). The adaptec mentioned is a great SCSI card- get it on Ebay- much cheaper if you choose to go that route. SO my recomendation would be WD caviars in a raid 0 array, they will hold their own no problem against any good SCSI drive, including 15kers, and beat them size/price to performance- that 15k 36 giger is going to cost you the same or more as a 80 or 120 caviar I think.

oh well, I rambled long enough
 

sparks

Senior member
Sep 18, 2000
535
0
0
If you plan on using Windows XP, I would hold back. There is a known issue with XP and SCSI that causes the drive to perform poorly, even slower than IDE. From what I have read about it, it won't be fixed until AFTER Windows XP SP1 is out. You can probably find out more about the issues at Storage Review Forums.
 

zepper00

Member
Jul 1, 2002
135
0
0
SCSI is a separate bus that is attached to a host system via a Host Adapter. Once the host sets a process in motion, the SCSI devices can "talk amongst themselves" and complete a task or tasks (que) without further reference to the host system--something not as yet possible with IDE. This extra intelligence is what adds a lot of the extra cost of SCSI devices, not to mention that SCSI is aimed at a more "mission critical" business type user and are built to deliver the reliability they require (and are willing to PAY for).
SCSI=5MB/sec - max. txfer rate - narrow (8-bit parallel data)
SCSI2=10MB/sec - "
UltraSCSI=20MB/sec - "
UltraSCSI2 (or SCSI3)=40MB/sec - "
UltraSCSI3=80MB/sec - "
There is a 160MB/sec standard, but I don't know if that is 16-bit or 32-bit or what, or its name.
Wide (16-bit parallel data) versions of above=double the data transfer rate (10, 20, 40, 80, 160).
LVD=Low Voltage Differential - two wires for each data line plus ground- cancels noise and allows longer cables w/o loss at high data rates at standard 5v.
HVD=High Voltage Diff - similar to above, but used higher than 5v for signals - not used much anymore.
Fiber Channel - Uses fiber-optic cables for data transfer instead of copper. Obvious benefits re noise and max possible data rate. Probably only used in mini and mainframe envionments.
Narrow normally uses a 50-pin version of the connector you are used to on IDE drives.
Wide uses a 68-pin connector that looks kind of like the 25-pin D serial connector but much higher density.
SCA is an 80-pin connection standard for disk arrays where drives are usually mounted in special trays and plugged into a backplane. This connector also looks like the IDE connector but pins are closer together. You can use SCA devices on standard cables with adapters which are different for normal or LVD.
SCA is used on all types of devices--narrow, wide, SE and LVD and combinations thereof-- which can make determining cabling and termination "interesting".
Differential chains also use separate terminators which are either built into the end of the cable or plugged into the last connector. SE devices often have terminators built into them which can be activated by jumper(s) or switches. "Active Termination" is preferred for all systems. If at least one of your drives can't provide active termination internally, use a separate terminator plugged into the end position. Fussbudgets will always use a separate active terminator. Only one termination per chain end.
Much of SCSI is backward compatible (LVD drives can often be jumpered to SE), but if you put a SE drive on a LVD channel, for instance, the whole channel will be limited to SE speed. There are host adapters that can handle both LVD and SE chains where both will work optimally.
Newbies should probably check out Hypermicro's web site for products and advice, and Gary Field's SCSI Info web site for more technical info.
.bh.
 

GoSharks

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 1999
3,057
0
76
Originally posted by: zepper00

UltraSCSI2 (or SCSI3)=40MB/sec - "

There is a 160MB/sec standard, but I don't know if that is 16-bit or 32-bit or what, or its name.

Fiber Channel - Uses fiber-optic cables for data transfer instead of copper. Obvious benefits re noise and max possible data rate. Probably only used in mini and mainframe envionments.

SCA is an 80-pin connection standard for disk arrays where drives are usually mounted in special trays and plugged into a backplane. This connector also looks like the IDE connector but pins are closer together.
If at least one of your drives can't provide active termination internally, use a separate terminator plugged into the end position. Fussbudgets will always use a separate active terminator. Only one termination per chain end.

couple things...

40MB/s scsi = ultra wide (uw)
80MB/s = ultra2 wide (u2w)
160MB/s = ultra 160 (u160)

fibre channel, can be carried using EITHER optical or copper cables. you can connect up to 128 devices per channel, and if you are using optical cable, the spec allows for up to 10KM distance between the devices and the adapter.

sca does not look like an ide port... no way.. it actually has a pretty unique look to it pic of sca interface (this is on an adapter which you can convert sca to 68pin, or 50pin)

lvd hard drives do not provide active termination to the lvd bus. to achieve this, one must use an external terminator, attached the the end of the cable with the hard drive between it and the host adapter. your adapter will provide termination for the other end of the chain if required (ie no external devices if you are running internally.)
one more thing, often times external scsi enclosures will provide the termination so in those situations you will not need an external terminator.
 

zepper00

Member
Jul 1, 2002
135
0
0
I stand by my defs of SCSI types. I did point out that Wide versions double the listed (narrow) rates. The designations have been so jumbled that just about anyone can claim anything.
My bad on the SCA connector. Going from memory and all I remembered clearly was the outside of the connector which is rectangular like IDE.
I claim partial credit on fiber channel. <g>
I also stated that LVD requires external termination (may be built into cable end or a separate device).
.bh.
 

Goosemaster

Lifer
Apr 10, 2001
48,777
3
81
Originally posted by: sparks
If you plan on using Windows XP, I would hold back. There is a known issue with XP and SCSI that causes the drive to perform poorly, even slower than IDE. From what I have read about it, it won't be fixed until AFTER Windows XP SP1 is out. You can probably find out more about the issues at Storage Review Forums.

actually the fix is very simple


you just change it to a dynamic disk
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
I did point out that Wide versions double the listed (narrow) rates.

A number of your entries are a combination of transfer modes and standards or neither.

SCSI-1,-2 and -3 are standards that are further broken up into various transfers rates and numerous other aspects that most people don't need to know about or will ever come across during normal useage. Anything with Ultra, Wide, or Fast in it is a transfer mode.

"SCSI2=10MB/sec - "

SCSI 2 is a standard with the following transfer modes:

Wide SCSI - 10MB 16bit 5MHz
Fast SCSI - 10MB 8bit 10MHz
Fast Wide SCSI - 20MB 16bit 10MHz

Every transfer mode above these is part of the SCSI 3 standard.

"UltraSCSI=20MB/sec - "

Correct, with Wide Ultra SCSI being 40MB.

"UltraSCSI2 (or SCSI3)=40MB/sec - "

There's no such thing as UltraSCSI2 and as I said above even UltraSCSI is part of SCSI 3, which starts at 20MB/s.

Ultra2 SCSI - 40MB 8bit 40MHz

Everything above Ultra2 SCSI is wide (16bit)

Wide Ultra2 SCSI - 80MB 16bit 40MHz

"UltraSCSI3=80MB/sec - "

This doesn't exist either.

Ultra3 SCSI/Ultra160 SCSI - 160MB 16bit 40MHz (clock doubled)

Ultra320 SCSI - 320MB 16bit 80MHz (clock doubled)

 

SupermanCK

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2000
2,264
0
0
actually i have a quick question about ultra160...
what is the best to use? FC, LC, LVD, SCA? 68pin or 80pin?
or it doesn't matter? just get the 15krpm one
 

bozo1

Diamond Member
May 21, 2001
6,364
0
0
Originally posted by: SupermanCK
actually i have a quick question about ultra160...
what is the best to use? FC, LC, LVD, SCA? 68pin or 80pin?
or it doesn't matter? just get the 15krpm one

You want the one with the standard 68-pin connector. The 80 pin (SCA) will require you to use an SCA-to-68 pin adapter and those are notorious for causing problems. An Ultra2 or Ultra160 drive will be LVD (low voltage differential). Forget FC - that's fibre channel.

You want a 15K Ultra160 drive with a 68-pin connector.

 

zepper00

Member
Jul 1, 2002
135
0
0
Unless you're mr. moneybags, you will forget FC. Check the price difference between FC and standard host adapters and drives on Pricewatch.
It really depends on how many drives you want to have operating at the same time. The fastest drive out there now (Seagate 15k) can barely peak at 60MB/sec and can sustain 50MB/Sec. So if only one HD on the channel (and perhaps a tape backup drive), you would only need 80 MB/sec channel. If you're going to have 2 or more HDs and tape or perhaps optical drives, then the increased capacity of the 160MB/sec channel may be worth it.
As another said, it is easier and more reliable to go with 68-pin connectors no adaptors needed). But as you've probably noticed, really good deals can be had on SCA drives and I've not had trouble with my Quantum and Fujitsu drives that are connected that way now.
Since I'm not mr. gotrocks, I would be looking at 10k LVD-160 w/SCA connector drives from Seagate, IBM, Quantum or Fujitsu (now div. of Maxtor) and either the Q-logic or LSI (Symbios) host adapters on the Hypermicro site.
.bh.
 

SupermanCK

Platinum Member
Mar 31, 2000
2,264
0
0
well i recent purchased a Tekram U160 controller over at FS/FT forum. That's why I am thinking about going SCSI.
But here is my current set up, lmk if it's worth it to switch to SCSI
RAID-0 set up
Drivers: Western Digital 120GB Special Edition with 8MB cache x 2
I know that the seek time is a lot lower on the scsi drive, but would switch to scsi help that much in performance.
I play a lot of games, or used to, but I am thinking about doing some divx, video editing soon.
I know that if I get a scsi cd-burner it would help a lot because it's independent from teh system...
is there 50->68 pin converters out there? I want to get a scsi dvd drive also.
 

Zepper

Elite Member
May 1, 2001
18,998
0
0
I've got my old handle back, but I can't edit the messages I posted under Zepper00 so here are edits for the last Zepper00 post on this thread:
It is Quantum that is a div. of Maxtor not Fujitsu. I think Maxtor is also owned partly or wholly by Samsung.
Add Tekram to the host adapter list.

to SupermanCK,
Unfortunately just about no one is making SCSI burners any more--the fastest true SCSI burner that I know of is the Sanyo 24x. Yamaha has had a SCSI adapter that you could get for their last few models, but I haven't heard a lot about it. If you get a good IDE drive with a large buffer and some sort of burn protection scheme--and put it on its own IDE channel (perhaps you will need to add an UDMA PCI controller for this) you will have nearly as reliable performance and the speed of the latest drives.
 

Bobbyeyes

Senior member
Jun 3, 2002
205
0
0
Originally posted by: SupermanCK
actually i have a quick question about ultra160...
what is the best to use? FC, LC, LVD, SCA? 68pin or 80pin?
or it doesn't matter? just get the 15krpm one

lvd....68 pin
if this is encouragement to you..(i hope i dont open a can of worms for you)
and ALL AT THE SAME TIME...
using win2kpro, i can play 15 separate movies, at once in windows media player; play an extremely resource intense game (motocross madness 2), and burn flawlessly
MY RIG:

asus p4b-533
today...2.5@2950
1 CORSAIR 512 XMS 3200
tekram 390 U3W
LOTS OF SCSI HDS all mobile racked
2-running xp pro
2-running win2k pro(my fave)
2-for storage
2 plextor ultra wides (68pin)
1 plextor 8/20 burner (50pin)
scsi zip
scsi jaz
turtle beach santa cruz
2 sets of altec lancing (1-front and 1-rear)
for earth shattering sound

i dont think you will feel a difference bet 10k and 15k unless you are using a 64bit pci slot(server board).
scsi is for better multitasking
 
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