Seattle voters do something right!

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
11
81
http://money.cnn.com/news/news...ic_bag_tax_2009_8.html

SEATTLE ? Seattle voters have rejected a 20-cent fee for every paper or plastic bag they get from supermarkets, drug stores and convenience stores. The city's incumbent mayor didn't fare much better than the fee, trailing two challengers in a bid for a third term.

With about half the ballots counted in the all-mail vote, the bag fee was failing 58 percent to 42 percent in Tuesday's primary.

City leaders had passed an ordinance to charge the bag fee, which was to start in January. But the plastics industry bankrolled a referendum to put the question to voters in Tuesday's election.

Plastic bag makers have lobbied hard to defeat the fee, outspending opponents about 15 to 1.

Adam Parmer, a spokesman for the Coalition to Stop the Seattle Bag Tax, said the results show the bag fee was "a costly, unnecessary tax" and the wrong approach to changing behavior.

"Seattle voters have made it clear that this is not the approach they want to take in protecting the environment," he said.

Supporters argue the fee would encourage more reusable bags, cut down on pollution and waste, and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

"This campaign is about much more than just one decision of the voters," said Rob Gala, a spokesman for Seattle Green Bag campaign, which backed the fee. "It's really about raising the awareness of voters, and we've really accomplished that."

Also in Seattle, unpopular Mayor Greg Nickels was narrowly trailing two challengers in his bid for a third term. Sierra Club activist Mike McGinn has a slim lead with 27 percent of the vote. Cell phone executive Joe Mallahan has 26 percent, while Nickels has 25 percent. The top two finishers will advance to the November election.

Nickels, while prominent nationally for his initiatives to make the city greener, has been dogged locally by criticism of a sometimes heavy-handed style and of the city's response to a December snowstorm that paralyzed Seattle for nearly two weeks.

The election was held entirely by mail, with ballots postmarked on Tuesday considered valid, so close races could remain unresolved until next week.

Observers predicted that a failure for the bag fee in an eco-conscious city like Seattle, such proposals would be an even tougher sell elsewhere.

"I don't agree with it, period," said Myrna Peterson, 68, of Seattle, as she dropped off her ballot Tuesday afternoon. "It's expensive. It's uncalled for."

Jim Reitz, 38, a Seattle cable technician, said he was torn on the issue. He supports the concept and initially planned to vote for the measure, which would add the 20-cent fee at about 575 stores in the city. He ultimately voted against it Tuesday, saying he didn't have confidence in how the city would manage the money it raised.

The city has said it expected to collect $10 million in annual revenue. Under the ordinance, small stores would keep the entire 20-cent fee. Stores with gross sales of more than $1 million a year keep 5 cents, and the rest goes to city recycling and environmental education programs.

The plastics industry's aggressive campaign against the fee is part of a national campaign to stave off bag restrictions.

In California, bag manufacturers successfully sued cities that banned plastic bags.

Several states from Colorado to Texas to Virginia debated bag bans or fees this year, but no statewide ban or fee has been enacted. Washington, D.C., passed a 5-cent fee on paper or plastic bags, and the Outer Banks region in North Carolina banned plastic bags this year. But New York City dropped a proposed 5-cent bag fee in June, and Philadelphia rejected a plastic bag ban.

In Seattle, the Progressive Bag Affiliates, an arm of Virginia-based American Chemistry Council, has given the bulk of money to defeat the bag fee.

I think this is great. The bag tax is an abomination, and I was literally planning on moving to the suburbs if this passed. There are so many things wrong with this tax. First, its useless - a poll in Seattle said that 90% of Seattle residents already reused or recycled their plastic bags, so how is this cutting down on plastic used? They'll just have to buy them elsewhere. Secondly, it will only hurt local businesses, because big-box stores like Target are exempt - so people that don't want to pay the tax won't go to the local grocery store for things they can get elsewhere.

I'm amazed the Seattle voting public actually did something right - especially when it comes to something guised as environment-friendly!
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
I do agree in principle with what the bill was trying to do, but they went overboard when writing it. 20¢/bag is excessive. A flat fee per transaction would work just as well. As it stands, this bill will only hurt the poor and smaller retailers. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot....
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,358
8,447
126
at least it was on both plastic and paper bags.
 

Slick5150

Diamond Member
Nov 10, 2001
8,760
3
81
I absolutely support the concept of something like this, but not being from Seattle I don't know the details. Why were big box stores exempted?
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
11
81
Originally posted by: Slick5150
I absolutely support the concept of something like this, but not being from Seattle I don't know the details. Why were big box stores exempted?

They sold other things. The bag tax only applied to grocery stores and convenience stores - so if you were a store like Target that sold groceries along with other things, you were exempt.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
We added a $0.05 fee for plastic bags a couple of months ago here in Toronto - no exemptions. Anecdotally I think it's spurred greater use of reusable cloth bags. At the least people are more aware of the issue.

$0.20 is rather on the high side, as once in a while you simply do need to go with a plastic bag when you've forgotten to bring your own and want to carry some groceries home.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Originally posted by: ElFenix
at least it was on both plastic and paper bags.

Yeah, but I see paper as being the lesser of two evils. At least they are stronger, decompose much more readily, and are made from a somewhat renewable resource (trees).
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Originally posted by: yllus
We added a $0.05 fee for plastic bags a couple of months ago here in Toronto - no exemptions. Anecdotally I think it's spurred greater use of reusable cloth bags. At the least people are more aware of the issue.

$0.20 is rather on the high side, as once in a while you simply do need to go with a plastic bag when you've forgotten to bring your own and want to carry some groceries home.

This actually sounds more sensible. Is it a per bag fee or per transaction fee?
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Originally posted by: yllus
We added a $0.05 fee for plastic bags a couple of months ago here in Toronto - no exemptions. Anecdotally I think it's spurred greater use of reusable cloth bags. At the least people are more aware of the issue.

$0.20 is rather on the high side, as once in a while you simply do need to go with a plastic bag when you've forgotten to bring your own and want to carry some groceries home.

This actually sounds more sensible. Is it a per bag fee or per transaction fee?

Per bag.

I think the fee is just high enough to make you remind yourself to bring your own bag next time, but not so much that you get annoyed at the city or store for being petty or punitive.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,019
8,056
136
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Originally posted by: ElFenix
at least it was on both plastic and paper bags.

Yeah, but I see paper as being the lesser of two evils. At least they are stronger, decompose much more readily, and are made from a somewhat renewable resource (trees).

Wasn't so long ago that environmentalists forced us into plastic bags to save trees. Plastic bags are a dire lesson in "beware what you wish for".
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
11
81
I just don't see what these bag taxes are REALLY saving. I use all my plastic bags for my dog - I know a lot of people use them for trash bags. How many people just throw them out? How many bags are you REALLY saving by doing this? I can't imagine there is much of a true environmental impact here - its just environmentalists doing something for the sake of it.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Originally posted by: ElFenix
at least it was on both plastic and paper bags.

Yeah, but I see paper as being the lesser of two evils. At least they are stronger, decompose much more readily, and are made from a somewhat renewable resource (trees).

Wasn't so long ago that environmentalists forced us into plastic bags to save trees. Plastic bags are a dire lesson in "beware what you wish for".

I agree, but I wouldn't put this squarely on environmentalists' shoulders. Trees are renewable, if logged responsibly. Cutting down old-growth/hardwood forests is a bad idea, but continually harvesting pine trees is no big loss. Besides, with the way modern manufacturing has gone, it is now much cheaper to produce the plastic bags than the paper ones.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Originally posted by: Deeko
I just don't see what these bag taxes are REALLY saving. I use all my plastic bags for my dog - I know a lot of people use them for trash bags. How many people just throw them out? How many bags are you REALLY saving by doing this? I can't imagine there is much of a true environmental impact here - its just environmentalists doing something for the sake of it.

Even if you do reuse them as trash bags (as I do) or for your dog, they still end up in the trash. People do recycle them, but there isn't much economic sense to do so because it is just as cheap to produce new ones, if not cheaper. Paper bags at least decompose much more quickly and are more likely to go out with the newspapers for recycling...
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
11
81
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Originally posted by: Deeko
I just don't see what these bag taxes are REALLY saving. I use all my plastic bags for my dog - I know a lot of people use them for trash bags. How many people just throw them out? How many bags are you REALLY saving by doing this? I can't imagine there is much of a true environmental impact here - its just environmentalists doing something for the sake of it.

Even if you do reuse them as trash bags (as I do) or for your dog, they still end up in the trash. People do recycle them, but there isn't much economic sense to do so because it is just as cheap to produce new ones, if not cheaper. Paper bags at least decompose much more quickly and are more likely to go out with the newspapers for recycling...

My point is, if I don't get plastic bags from the grocery store, I still need to pick up my dog poop. People still need trash bags. So they'll purchase plastic bags instead of getting them at the store - in the end, almost as many plastic bags will be used.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
The Generous Assembly of North Carolina considered a bag tax for some coastal communities along the Outer Banks.

They dropped the tax - and banned the plastic bags.
 
May 28, 2006
149
0
0
Originally posted by: Deeko
I just don't see what these bag taxes are REALLY saving. I use all my plastic bags for my dog - I know a lot of people use them for trash bags. How many people just throw them out? How many bags are you REALLY saving by doing this? I can't imagine there is much of a true environmental impact here - its just environmentalists doing something for the sake of it.


I thought the 20 cent/bag fee excessive, considering that no one at the grocery store puts more than 2-3 items in a bag, and every other bag has a hole in it...a nickle, maybe. An incentive program to bring your own bags would be better. Get a buck/1% off your grocery order if you bring your own bags, etc. But I assume the bill sponsors had to create a financial incentive payable to the stores to get them on board.

Much like you, I reuse or recycle all the bags I get, I never have to buy plastic bags.

One of the environmental arguments made is that these bags blow around and end up in the storm sewers, and ultimately the Sound, where they get injested by wildlife. I work as a landscape gardener and I pick up 100's of bags a year that ultimately would have ended up in Lake Washington and the Sound.

I have, however, started to throw things into the garbage can without putting them in a bag first, it seems ridiculous to bag all the trash.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: Slick5150
I absolutely support the concept of something like this, but not being from Seattle I don't know the details. Why were big box stores exempted?

They sold other things. The bag tax only applied to grocery stores and convenience stores - so if you were a store like Target that sold groceries along with other things, you were exempt.

Oh imagine that. Walmart as well!
 

misle

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
3,371
0
76
Sounds like just another way for the government to milk money out of your pockets.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,213
11
81
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Deeko
Originally posted by: Slick5150
I absolutely support the concept of something like this, but not being from Seattle I don't know the details. Why were big box stores exempted?

They sold other things. The bag tax only applied to grocery stores and convenience stores - so if you were a store like Target that sold groceries along with other things, you were exempt.

Oh imagine that. Walmart as well!

We don't have any Walmarts
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,358
8,447
126
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Originally posted by: ElFenix
at least it was on both plastic and paper bags.

Yeah, but I see paper as being the lesser of two evils. At least they are stronger, decompose much more readily, and are made from a somewhat renewable resource (trees).

the material itself is more renewable. however, much more energy is used for paper bags than plastic, from cutting down the trees to transporting the lumber to making the bags to transporting the bags to the stores, and the vast majority of that energy is from non-renewable sources. it dwarfs the amount of oil used in making and shipping the plastic bags, last i heard.
 
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