Securing our border

[werepossum]

Ok, give us all the benefit of your vast wisdom and tell us exactly how the US can successfully secure all it's border/coast territory to prevent all (or at last the majority of) illegal immigration.

Now you get to show the world how brilliant you are. We're waiting...

Hardly needs brilliance. First one identifies where the illegals are crossing. Build barriers there in triplicate, so that defeating one barrier does not automatically mean admittance to the country. These can be walls or fences, but they have to be manned and have automated surveillance equipment. Then you identify where they can cross, because that's where they will move to next, and do the same there.

Next you check everyone arrested for citizenship and deport those who are here illegally. Same with employment - check everyone who starts a new job when their tax withholding begins. There are stiff penalties for employing illegals; enforce them strenuously. Same with hand-out programs. Same with identity theft - just accept that the federal government is inherently incapable of creating and maintaining such a database and hire Google or someone similar to do it. Then when someone is using another's Social Security number, whether for work or health care, prosecute to the fullest, THEN deport. If illegals face prison time rather than simply deportation (which with our current lack of birder security is little more than an inconvenience) it would discourage illegal immigration. Deport every illegal convicted of a felony; we are more than capable of domestically producing more felons than we could ever need.

Once we've actually shut down border crossings and closed off corporate hiring of illegals, give it a breather of maybe five to ten years as proof of concept, to make sure we're on top of it. At that point, announce an amnesty program for illegals: Register, pay your back taxes (if any - some may qualify for refunds), learn written and spoken English, civics, and American history, and pay a penalty, and if you've been convicted of no felonies you get probation as a legally resident alien. After an appropriate period - I'd suggest five to seven years - you can apply for citizenship.

And note that all this is just off the top of my head.

Are you under the impression everybody would come if we streamlined the process? I dont think everybody will come. Those who want to come will like they do now. But instead of sending them to the shadows of our society we would get them included.

You understand that illegals depress wages right? Once an illegal becomes legal well then they are also protected by local and federal wage laws. The wages would rise helping everybody.

An over-supply of labor depresses wages. Nations which really need workers don't see wage deflation over illegals because the nation needs the workers. Any time a nation has a surplus of workers of any sort, wages will depress. They may depress farther with illegals because they are limited as to how many bennies they can get and because they are limited in which jobs they can get, but then streamlining immigration also increases the labor pool so in the end, we're still behind.

Rageragerageragerageragerage


http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS15000000

lol +1

You, sir, are made of win.

 

[Genx87]

So... no concept of supply and demand huh?

That is such a wide ranging response. Perhaps you can narrow down the market you are discussing.

 

[BoberFett]

That is such a wide ranging response. Perhaps you can narrow down the market you are discussing.

Unskilled labor.

 

[Genx87]

Unskilled labor.

Unskilled labor is already flooding our market. Making them legal would raise their wages and any other legal citizens competing with them.

 

[BoberFett]

Unskilled labor is already flooding our market. Making them legal would raise their wages and any other legal citizens competing with them.

I'm not even sure where to begin with that one...

Are you claiming that increased price will result in increased demand?

 

[Genx87]

I'm not even sure where to begin with that one...

Are you claiming that increased price will result in increased demand?

By becoming legal they will be subject to our labor laws. Thus instead of working in the black market of labor at below legal wages. They will be in the legal market for min wage. The market is already flooded with unskilled labor. What is helping to depress wages further is people working for a wage lower than what legal residents are allowed to work.

 

[fskimospy]

Hardly needs brilliance. First one identifies where the illegals are crossing. Build barriers there in triplicate, so that defeating one barrier does not automatically mean admittance to the country. These can be walls or fences, but they have to be manned and have automated surveillance equipment. Then you identify where they can cross, because that's where they will move to next, and do the same there.

Next you check everyone arrested for citizenship and deport those who are here illegally. Same with employment - check everyone who starts a new job when their tax withholding begins. There are stiff penalties for employing illegals; enforce them strenuously. Same with hand-out programs. Same with identity theft - just accept that the federal government is inherently incapable of creating and maintaining such a database and hire Google or someone similar to do it. Then when someone is using another's Social Security number, whether for work or health care, prosecute to the fullest, THEN deport. If illegals face prison time rather than simply deportation (which with our current lack of birder security is little more than an inconvenience) it would discourage illegal immigration. Deport every illegal convicted of a felony; we are more than capable of domestically producing more felons than we could ever need.

Once we've actually shut down border crossings and closed off corporate hiring of illegals, give it a breather of maybe five to ten years as proof of concept, to make sure we're on top of it. At that point, announce an amnesty program for illegals: Register, pay your back taxes (if any - some may qualify for refunds), learn written and spoken English, civics, and American history, and pay a penalty, and if you've been convicted of no felonies you get probation as a legally resident alien. After an appropriate period - I'd suggest five to seven years - you can apply for citizenship.

And note that all this is just off the top of my head.

CRS estimated the cost of a regular border fence to be about $50 billion. Triple that and let's call it $150 billion. Then you have to pay for people to man it, which will send costs further into the stratosphere. I won't even get into the whole "sending everyone's tax information to private companies" thing, because that's nuts.

To put these numbers into perspective, that is considerably larger than all of the infrastructure spending put into the stimulus bill that Republicans so derided.

 

[boomerang]

If I had employment, a roof over my head, food to eat and I was here illegally flying under the radar the last thing I'd want to do is "get legal", start paying taxes and be subject to all the rules, regulations and requirements that come with that. The left continually comes up with these harebrained plans that are contingent on things happening that are unlikely to happen.

My understanding is that many illegals do not in any way desire to become legal because the plan from day one was to earn money, send as much as is possible back to family in their home country and then move back when the opportunity presents itself and live well on the wages they earned here. Why in the world would this segment want to get legal and net less than they are now? The simple and obvious answer is that they don't.

We're supposed to have faith in fabricated scenarios that are based in feelings on how things should or might possibly work. At some point it's best to come to the understanding that arguing with idiots accomplishes absolutely nothing.

 

[Genx87]

If I had employment, a roof over my head, food to eat and I was here illegally flying under the radar the last thing I'd want to do is "get legal", start paying taxes and be subject to all the rules, regulations and requirements that come with that. The left continually comes up with these harebrained plans that are contingent on things happening that are unlikely to happen.

My understanding is that many illegals do not in any way desire to become legal because the plan from day one was to earn money, send as much as is possible back to family in their home country and then move back when the opportunity presents itself and live well on the wages they earned here. Why in the world would this segment want to get legal and net less than they are now? The simple and obvious answer is that they don't.

We're supposed to have faith in fabricated scenarios that are based in feelings on how things should or might possibly work. At some point it's best to come to the understanding that arguing with idiots accomplishes absolutely nothing.

Yeah, why would you want to get paid more money with access to benefits and legal status? Much better working for less money and lack workplace rights while looking over your shoulder for the govt to raid and send you back home.

 

[boomerang]

An over-supply of labor depresses wages. Nations which really need workers don't see wage deflation over illegals because the nation needs the workers. Any time a nation has a surplus of workers of any sort, wages will depress. They may depress farther with illegals because they are limited as to how many bennies they can get and because they are limited in which jobs they can get, but then streamlining immigration also increases the labor pool so in the end, we're still behind.

Does it amaze you as much as it amazes me that something as simple as you have explained even needs explaining? Supply and demand is something we as humans deal with every single day in various forms. Orange trees hit by a frost - OJ goes up in price. Large unsold inventories of cars on dealer lots - car prices are lowered. More people than there are jobs - wages are depressed. It's so fucking simple that it should not even need to be explained. Hat's off to you for having the patience to do so. I don't see enough upside in it for me to even do so.

 

[davmat787]

Can anyone make a case as to why an unsecured border is better than a secured one? And why a mixture of policies and a porous border that combine to allow millions of illegal immigrants that are largely of a single ethnicity is better than a controlled border and immigration policy that allows for a diverse mixture of immigrants from around the world seeking legal citizenship? Why would anyone favor the status quo over fixing our immigration policy top to bottom which would probably entail a more secure border?

 

[ivwshane]

Does it amaze you as much as it amazes me that something as simple as you have explained even needs explaining? Supply and demand is something we as humans deal with every single day in various forms. Orange trees hit by a frost - OJ goes up in price. Large unsold inventories of cars on dealer lots - car prices are lowered. More people than there are jobs - wages are depressed. It's so fucking simple that it should not even need to be explained. Hat's off to you for having the patience to do so. I don't see enough upside in it for me to even do so.

Lol! And yet you grace us with your god awful opinions all the time and every time you do you say the same shit! Yet anytime someone calls you on your bullshit and ignorant thinking, amazingly you find it within you to shut the fuck up! You tend to write a lot a say very little but you appear to have zero clue just how dumb you are (despite your claims to the contrary).

 

[Genx87]

Can anyone make a case as to why an unsecured border is better than a secured one? And why a mixture of policies and a porous border that combine to allow millions of illegal immigrants that are largely of a single ethnicity is better than a controlled border and immigration policy that allows for a diverse mixture of immigrants from around the world seeking legal citizenship? Why would anyone favor the status quo over fixing our immigration policy top to bottom which would probably entail a more secure border?

Im not sure if anybody is for the status quo. We are arguing over what is the best way to secure the border and ensure immigration law compliance. Some believe a wall will stop them. Others believe a fix in the immigration law will bring about compliance and a more orderly inflow of immigrants. Others believe a combination of the above.

But I dont think anybody believes the current situation is desireable.

 

[ivwshane]

Why would anyone argue why an unsecured border is better than a secured border? Has someone advocated that?

Is this an alt werepossum account?

Can anyone make a case as to why an unsecured border is better than a secured one? And why a mixture of policies and a porous border that combine to allow millions of illegal immigrants that are largely of a single ethnicity is better than a controlled border and immigration policy that allows for a diverse mixture of immigrants from around the world seeking legal citizenship? Why would anyone favor the status quo over fixing our immigration policy top to bottom which would probably entail a more secure border?

 

[soundforbjt]

Can anyone make a case as to why an unsecured border is better than a secured one? And why a mixture of policies and a porous border that combine to allow millions of illegal immigrants that are largely of a single ethnicity is better than a controlled border and immigration policy that allows for a diverse mixture of immigrants from around the world seeking legal citizenship? Why would anyone favor the status quo over fixing our immigration policy top to bottom which would probably entail a more secure border?

Because republicans won't/don't want to fix our immigration policy top to bottom. They're all for "securing" the border though.

 

[michal1980]

Im not sure if anybody is for the status quo. We are arguing over what is the best way to secure the border and ensure immigration law compliance. Some believe a wall will stop them. Others believe a fix in the immigration law will bring about compliance and a more orderly inflow of immigrants. Others believe a combination of the above.

But I dont think anybody believes the current situation is desireable.

The current situation is more desirable then just legalizing them. What benefit to the country is there in just giving law breakers more handouts?

'Hey you broke the law, here's a prize' Is what everyone for amnesty is saying.

While giving a middle finger to American citizens.

 

[Genx87]

The current situation is more desirable then just legalizing them. What benefit to the country is there in just giving law breakers more handouts?

'Hey you broke the law, here's a prize' Is what everyone for amnesty is saying.

While giving a middle finger to American citizens.

Yes I enjoy having millions of people working for less than min wage, not paying their full tax burden, and consuming public resources. Sounds like a well thought out long term plan.

You are going to show them by trying to make them into felons when reforming the law.

 

[soundforbjt]

'Hey you broke the law, here's a prize' Is what everyone for amnesty is saying.

While giving a middle finger to American citizens.

Yep, Reagan sure liked to give the American citizens the finger didn't he?

 

[Humpy]

Can anyone make a case as to why an unsecured border is better than a secured one? And why a mixture of policies and a porous border that combine to allow millions of illegal immigrants that are largely of a single ethnicity is better than a controlled border and immigration policy that allows for a diverse mixture of immigrants from around the world seeking legal citizenship? Why would anyone favor the status quo over fixing our immigration policy top to bottom which would probably entail a more secure border?

I think a case could be made for an unsecured border. We don't secure borders between the 50 states, or between the thousands of cities and counties, because it is economically beneficial. Those same benefits could arguably be gained at international borders as well.

 

[ivwshane]

I think a case could be made for an unsecured border. We don't secure borders between the 50 states, or between the thousands of cities and counties, because it is economically beneficial. Those same benefits could arguably be gained at international borders as well.

The difference is that all states must follow federal law. The federal law is what makes state "equal" and ensures things are relatively fair.

 

[michal1980]

Yep, Reagan sure liked to give the American citizens the finger didn't he?

So you on the left agree with Reagan now?

Or was Reagan wrong, but you just want to repeat his mistakes?

 

[werepossum]

CRS estimated the cost of a regular border fence to be about $50 billion. Triple that and let's call it $150 billion. Then you have to pay for people to man it, which will send costs further into the stratosphere. I won't even get into the whole "sending everyone's tax information to private companies" thing, because that's nuts.

To put these numbers into perspective, that is considerably larger than all of the infrastructure spending put into the stimulus bill that Republicans so derided.

To put these numbers into some more perspective, $150 billion would be less than four years of remittances. Besides, aren't you all about government spending money? Just call it a stimulus and pretend it's not a fence, it's a bridge to nowhere. Then you'll be happy.

As far as "sending everyone's tax information to private companies", the IRS recently allowed everyone's tax information to go to Russia, and before that willingly shared private tax information on politically targeted individuals with left wing groups. We also saw Hillary herself decide that the private sector was better than the public sector for a sensitive email server. (As long as that private sector is herself anyway.) Which is better, to have a private American company, under performance bond, build and maintain an accurate common database which government can check and operate, or having the government repeatedly fail both at building one unified database and at keeping such information secure? How many times has Google been hit?

Does it amaze you as much as it amazes me that something as simple as you have explained even needs explaining? Supply and demand is something we as humans deal with every single day in various forms. Orange trees hit by a frost - OJ goes up in price. Large unsold inventories of cars on dealer lots - car prices are lowered. More people than there are jobs - wages are depressed. It's so fucking simple that it should not even need to be explained. Hat's off to you for having the patience to do so. I don't see enough upside in it for me to even do so.

It absolutely does amaze me. It also amazes me that some people think feel that a simple law or regulation can effectively overturn this fact of life for other than a minority of Americans.

 

[soundforbjt]

So you on the left agree with Reagan now?

Or was Reagan wrong, but you just want to repeat his mistakes?

"We" agreed with him then on that point. Reagan couldn't win the current Republican primary today. He'd be called a Rhino. You guys sure have a distorted view of history or you were not alive then to remember.

 

[rudeguy]

I think it's important to note the Democrat plan of putting millions of illegals into minimum wage would dramatically increase income inequality and force millions of families into poverty.

Why do the Democrats hate illegals so much?

 

[soundforbjt]

I think it's important to note the Democrat plan of putting millions of illegals into minimum wage would dramatically increase income inequality and force millions of families into poverty.

Why do the Democrats hate illegals so much?

Of course you have a link to back that up, right?