Securing our border

[Genx87]

How would I turn them into felons? You become a felon by committing felonies, which they did.

Ohhhhhhh that answer really fixes the issue of the millions who are here illegally!

 

[rudeguy]

Why don't we get rid of or change bad laws that everyone agrees aren't working like our immigration laws and keep good laws like the ones against burglary.

Wait, am I being too rational for this discussion?

so I can now disregard laws I don't like and not have to worry about the consequences?

Because I have a list of people I want to punch in the face....

 

[fskimospy]

so I can now disregard laws I don't like and not have to worry about the consequences?

Because I have a list of people I want to punch in the face....

The war on drugs is an exceptionally bad idea. Hopefully when and if we get rid of those terrible laws I would advocate to release the people who are in jail for breaking them and I would propose we not prosecute those who we hadn't gotten around to arresting yet.

You can do whatever you want, but prosecuting people under laws we all agree are dumb seems...well...dumb.

 

[rudeguy]

The war on drugs is an exceptionally bad idea. Hopefully when and if we get rid of those terrible laws I would advocate to release the people who are in jail for breaking them and I would propose we not prosecute those who we hadn't gotten around to arresting yet.

You can do whatever you want, but prosecuting people under laws we all agree are dumb seems...well...dumb.

But do you agree that its a necessity to do?

 

[rudeguy]

Ohhhhhhh that answer really fixes the issue of the millions who are here illegally!

The issue with the millions who are here illegally is they came here illegally.

 

[fskimospy]

But do you agree that its a necessity to do?

No. The rule of law is not in danger if we decline to enforce certain laws we all agree are dumb.

Are you honestly making the argument that if we don't enforce immigration law that lawlessness will break out across the US?

 

[fskimospy]

The issue with the millions who are here illegally is they came here illegally.

You're in Michigan, right? Here's a law that as far as I can tell is still on the books there:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(5r...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-532

750.532 Seduction; punishment.
Sec. 532.

Punishment—Any man who shall seduce and debauch any unmarried woman shall be guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment in the state prison not more than 5 years or by fine of not more than 2,500 dollars; but no prosecution shall be commenced under this section after 1 year from the time of committing the offense.

My guess is that there are plenty of people that law enforcement officials know are breaking that law every year. Shouldn't they all be arrested? Aren't they risking anarchy by not enforcing this dumb law?

 

[werepossum]

Why don't we get rid of or change bad laws that everyone agrees aren't working like our immigration laws and keep good laws like the ones against burglary.

Wait, am I being too rational for this discussion?

How exactly are laws against burglary working? The vast majority of burglaries are never solved or even really investigated; the vast majority of goods burgled are never recovered. Instead we simply purchase insurance.

Ohhhhhhh that answer really fixes the issue of the millions who are here illegally!

The issue of the millions already here illegally is to me secondary to the millions more who in coming years will be here illegally. Solve that problem and the issue of those already here becomes much easier to handle.

 

[rudeguy]

No. The rule of law is not in danger if we decline to enforce certain laws we all agree are dumb.

Are you honestly making the argument that if we don't enforce immigration law that lawlessness will break out across the US?

Now now...lets not put words in my mouth. I'm trying to have a civilized conversation with you.

So if you think certain laws shouldn't be enforced, who do you think should get to decide which laws are enforced and which laws are not?

 

[Genx87]

So justice is determined by the amount of advocacy one can muster? There may not be many directly advocating that our domestic laws are broken, but there are many arguing that our domestic laws are racist. Shouldn't that count? If the solution to people breaking laws is to rewrite the laws around those people's behavior, why on Earth would this benefit be reserved only for illegals? I say remove tax laws and speeding laws - don't we all agree those are broken?

Besides, while both parties are in agreement that our immigration laws are broken, the American people believe that what's broken is their enforcement.

You are asking why we don't fix laws there isn't a consensus are broken. You picked a terrible analogy.

The solution for changing this law is to make it so people dont come here by the millions and bypass the law. The people who are here need to be dealt with as well. You cant tell me you think turning 12-15+ million people into felons will get them to come out of the woodwork. And any of them that do will be productive within society going forward with a felony on their record.

 

[rudeguy]

How exactly are laws against burglary working? The vast majority of burglaries are never solved or even really investigated; the vast majority of goods burgled are never recovered. Instead we simply purchase insurance.


The issue of the millions already here illegally is to me secondary to the millions more who in coming years will be here illegally. Solve that problem and the issue of those already here becomes much easier to handle.[/QUOTE]

Yep. Once we stop the flow, a lot more of us will be open to discussions about what to do with the people here. But I do not and never will support rewarding someone for committing a crime. I don't care what the crime is or what the reason for committing it was.

 

[soundforbjt]

Now now...lets not put words in my mouth. I'm trying to have a civilized conversation with you.

So if you think certain laws shouldn't be enforced, who do you think should get to decide which laws are enforced and which laws are not?

So, in your eyes if they (the millions already here) committed a felony no matter how long ago, they should be punished?

 

[Genx87]

You're in Michigan, right? Here's a law that as far as I can tell is still on the books there:

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(5r...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-532



My guess is that there are plenty of people that law enforcement officials know are breaking that law every year. Shouldn't they all be arrested? Aren't they risking anarchy by not enforcing this dumb law?

You know how you dont become a felon? Dont break the laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love that response. Rarely do the people who make that argument have any clue how many laws are on the books that turn avg citizens into felons if they were to be enforced.

 

[Genx87]

The issue of the millions already here illegally is to me secondary to the millions more who in coming years will be here illegally. Solve that problem and the issue of those already here becomes much easier to handle.

We can solve the issue in the future by fixing immigration law. And it can be fixed without spending billions erecting a useless wall!

 

[rudeguy]

So, in your eyes if they (the millions already here) committed a felony no matter how long ago, they should be punished?

Is there a statute of limitations on the laws they broke? If there is and they are passed it, there you go. If not, well there you go.

 

[Genx87]

Yep. Once we stop the flow, a lot more of us will be open to discussions about what to do with the people here. But I do not and never will support rewarding someone for committing a crime. I don't care what the crime is or what the reason for committing it was.

So like your step #3 you wont deal with it because no wall will stop the flow.

 

[Genx87]

Is there a statute of limitations on the laws they broke? If there is and they are passed it, there you go. If not, well there you go.

So is this you admitting the idea of turning illegals into felons is a poor one? Just slap a statute of limitations on it and problem solved? Why not just skip that step and move it forward a few years and save everybody the hassle.

 

[rudeguy]

So is this you admitting the idea of turning illegals into felons is a poor one? Just slap a statute of limitations on it and problem solved? Why not just skip that step and move it forward a few years and save everybody the hassle.

You are putting words into my mouth.

I never said to change the statute of limitations. You really are having problems dealing with this logically. I'm going to PM you a Barney coloring book to keep you busy while the adults talk.

 

[fskimospy]

How exactly are laws against burglary working? The vast majority of burglaries are never solved or even really investigated; the vast majority of goods burgled are never recovered. Instead we simply purchase insurance.

Are you arguing that burglary laws don't work because we still have burglaries? I don't know what to say other than that's self-evidently absurd.

The reason immigration laws aren't working isn't because we still have illegal immigration, it's because they marginalize and criminalize labor factors that the general public is totally fine with employing.

 

[Genx87]

You are putting words into my mouth.

I never said to change the statute of limitations. You really are having problems dealing with this logically. I'm going to PM you a Barney coloring book to keep you busy while the adults talk.

Oh this is grand. You, who laid out 3 steps to fixing this issue. Then turned around and explained how you want things done that would make implementing 2 of 3 steps impossible is telling me to the let the adults talk.

 

[fskimospy]

Now now...lets not put words in my mouth. I'm trying to have a civilized conversation with you.

So if you think certain laws shouldn't be enforced, who do you think should get to decide which laws are enforced and which laws are not?

All levels of law enforcement from your local cop on the corner up to the president decide on that every day.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth, I'm asking you a serious question. If you believe all laws should be enforced regardless of how counterproductive or silly they are that necessarily leads to Michigan police conducting mass arrests of unmarried people having sex.

I think that in cases like that the law is so manifestly absurd that we all agree it does not merit enforcement. That proves the point that in certain circumstances it's perfectly fine to decline to enforce laws.

 

[sphenodont]

Continue to increase funding until the problem is fixed. Additional funds will bring increased innovation. We could surveill the entire Mexican border with stationary blimps for less than $70B. The same blimps we use for similar purposes in Iraq and Afghanistan.

And here is the typical anti-free-market, Red-State-welfare mentality that the Republicans love having in their pocket.

 

[dank69]

so I can now disregard laws I don't like and not have to worry about the consequences?

Because I have a list of people I want to punch in the face....

Oh dear.

Now pay attention rugeguy because this is how you learn. Eskimo pointed out that it doesn't make sense to enforce laws that are widely considered broken. Since you couldn't argue that point, you changed it into something that is more easily attacked. Instead of ignoring laws everyone agrees are bad you changed it to any law you don't agree with. Changing his argument into something stupid and easily knocked down is called building a straw man.

 

[Genx87]

The issue with the millions who are here illegally is they came here illegally.

You obviously don't understand that soundbite does nothing to address the issue of what to do with them.

 

[rudeguy]

All levels of law enforcement from your local cop on the corner up to the president decide on that every day.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth, I'm asking you a serious question. If you believe all laws should be enforced regardless of how counterproductive or silly they are that necessarily leads to Michigan police conducting mass arrests of unmarried people having sex.

I think that in cases like that the law is so manifestly absurd that we all agree it does not merit enforcement. That proves the point that in certain circumstances it's perfectly fine to decline to enforce laws.

Bingo.

If a Border Patrol agent comes across a mom who is here illegally and has 4 kids that are citizens, he should be empowered to decide what to do. As should the prosecutor and the judge and the governor. But what you are proposing takes all that way and lets one man, the president, get to decide for everyone. That just isn't how American works.

And I did a quick look up of that law. It looks like the only people ever recently convicted of it took it as a plea for a more serious crime. See how that works? The prosecutor and the judge got to decide, not the president.