Securing Wifi from sniffers/hackers

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stlcardinals

Senior member
Sep 15, 2005
729
0
76
No it doesn't. That's the reason behind convoluting names like that - it increases the number of possibilities per character from x^26 to x^[However many characters are in the character set you are using]

Yes it does, using obvious character replacements, @ for a, 5 for s, 3 for e, makes it easier and especially using a form of "password" in the password itself.
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
Yes it does, using obvious character replacements, @ for a, 5 for s, 3 for e, makes it easier and especially using a form of "password" in the password itself.

I think you are over-estimating the algorithms used in these brute force attacks. How do you think they work?

While you could absolutely load a list of character replaced words for a dictionary attack (ie: "p@ssword", "passw0rd", etc...), outside of that there is no way that makes it any easier to crack. By including symbols, you increase the complexity as (assuming the hacker somehow knows this) the password isn't just limited to the 26 characters in the alphabet, but they now have to take into account the rest of the ASCII Character Set.

Unless you have "p@ssword" in a dictionary to reference, it is just as hard to crack as "p4ssword".

-GP
 

bobdole369

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2004
4,504
2
0
It's because dictionaries and pre-computed rainbow tables exist for most common passwords (using a lot of the default SSID's). Including a good chunk of the 2wire (AT&T Uverse RG) which uses a numeric only WPA2 key 12 character or so i length, with default SSID's like "2WIRE049"). If you don't think the leetspeakized tables exist you haven't looked very hard. Thus leetspeaking with obvious methods, (all vowels numbers, all 5's $'s) and various versions of password (p@ssw0rd, p@$$w0rd, passw0rd, etc) are alll done by this point for a number of the SSID's. Thus stlcardinals has a (fairly weak) point. It has become "easier" (actually less time-consuming) to crack the more obvious and clever obfuscations.

Another thing that I didn't see mentioned is that you don't need to physically be at the location for a very long time. The only thing you need is to log the 4-way handshake when a client associates. And with the right card you can packet inject disconnects, which force the client to re-associate, minimizing the time needed onsite.

Just for reference - a ten-digit phone number as a WPA2 key took my q6600 and GTS250 card about 8 hours to get, after 3 minutes on the laptop to get the handshake. Yes I limited to only numbers as I knew the key (my stuff). If I had to do alphanumeric + special chars I'd still be plugging at it.
 
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Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
It's because dictionaries and pre-computed rainbow tables exist for most common passwords (using a lot of the default SSID's). Including a good chunk of the 2wire (AT&T Uverse RG) which uses a numeric only WPA2 key 12 character or so i length, with default SSID's like "2WIRE049"). If you don't think the leetspeakized tables exist you haven't looked very hard. Thus leetspeaking with obvious methods, (all vowels numbers, all 5's $'s) and various versions of password (p@ssw0rd, p@$$w0rd, passw0rd, etc) are alll done by this point for a number of the SSID's. Thus stlcardinals has a (fairly weak) point. It has become "easier" (actually less time-consuming) to crack the more obvious and clever obfuscations.

Another thing that I didn't see mentioned is that you don't need to physically be at the location for a very long time. The only thing you need is to log the 4-way handshake when a client associates. And with the right card you can packet inject disconnects, which force the client to re-associate, minimizing the time needed onsite.

Just for reference - a ten-digit phone number as a WPA2 key took my q6600 and GTS250 card about 8 hours to get, after 3 minutes on the laptop to get the handshake. Yes I limited to only numbers as I knew the key (my stuff). If I had to do alphanumeric + special chars I'd still be plugging at it.

Yes there are pre-computed rainbow tables, but they matter very little because WPA2 uses Key Stengthening/Key Stretching to negate it.

There really isn't a defense that I am aware of for the type of packet injection that you are speaking of using a NIC in promiscuous mode. Obviously if they are able to capture the connect packet, brute force they encryption key off-site, and sniff packets with the cracked encryption, they have succeeded with little input on your part. To cap it off, if you do the pringles can trick or something similar to amplify your signal, you could attack from a few miles away. Yet another reason why Wireless Networks are inherently insecure.

Practice proper password entropy and use a layered security approach is the best advice for wireless users today. It is unlikely that someone spends the time necessary to get through that unless you are a very specific target.

-Kevin, C|EH
 

LiuKangBakinPie

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
3,903
0
0
What in the world are you arguing? SSID is the biggest myth? No, SSID is a real term, not a myth (lol?).

As Slugbait said, not broadcasting the SSID and using MAC Filtering does virtually nothing for you except delay an attacker and make your life harder when people want to connect to your network.

-GP

iM AGREEING ON THE ssid MATTER hence the two two parts in the reply. SSID is one of the biggest myth in thinking it has something to do with keeping your wi-fi secure.
What you got no clue about are those programs good indication your a windows GUI customer. Try linux and a command line you will find those programs have lot more functionality that you tried to described there.

You mustcapture the WPA/WPA2 authentication handshake and then use aircrack-ng to crack the pre-shared key. only plain brute force techniques can be used against WPA/WPA2. Reason for that because the key is not static, so collecting IVs like when cracking WEP encryption, does not speed up the attack.
 
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Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
iM AGREEING ON THE ssid MATTER hence the two two parts in the reply. SSID is one of the biggest myth in thinking it has something to do with keeping your wi-fi secure.
What you got no clue about are those programs good indication your a windows GUI customer. Try linux and a command line you will find those programs have lot more functionality that you tried to described there.

You mustcapture the WPA/WPA2 authentication handshake and then use aircrack-ng to crack the pre-shared key. only plain brute force techniques can be used against WPA/WPA2. Reason for that because the key is not static, so collecting IVs like when cracking WEP encryption, does not speed up the attack.

There wasn't 2 parts to that reply - there wasn't even a period in the entire thing!

I'm really not getting into a debate about credentials with you. I'm not the only person that has told you that you are wrong in this thread or other threads. You post around with stream-of-conscious posts that typically include a bunch of terms that you haven't yet proven that you fully understand and insult those who correct you.

You are correct on the second point, though it is basically restating the flaw that bobdole369 and I were talking about and acknowledging that massive packet capture is pointless with WPA based authentication protocols.

-GP
 

LiuKangBakinPie

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
3,903
0
0
There wasn't 2 parts to that reply - there wasn't even a period in the entire thing!

I'm really not getting into a debate about credentials with you. I'm not the only person that has told you that you are wrong in this thread or other threads. You post around with stream-of-conscious posts that typically include a bunch of terms that you haven't yet proven that you fully understand and insult those who correct you.

You are correct on the second point, though it is basically restating the flaw that bobdole369 and I were talking about and acknowledging that massive packet capture is pointless with WPA based authentication protocols.

-GP
http://www.icsalabs.com/icsa/docs/html/communities/WLAN/wp_ssid_hiding.pdf

Read it.
No one told me anything. Its common knowledge
 

Fardringle

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2000
9,197
763
126
First off, your link doesn't work.

Second, yes, they did tell you. You said that
SSID is the biggest myth in trying to secure a wireless.

Since you quoted Gamingphreek and called him clueless when he said that hiding the SSID does nothing for wireless security, the only logical conclusion is that you believe that hiding the SSID DOES help wireless security. The fact is that it does not help in any way.
 
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dawks

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,071
2
81
All that aside, unless you can guess the password, WPA2-AES is virtually immune to a brute force attack. Rainbow Tables are the only things that have *theoretically* had *some* success against the AES256 encryption employed by WPA2 Personal.

When you say 'virtually immune to a brute force attack', what you actually mean is the only known attack on WPA2 is brute forcing. And if you use a strong enough key, it becomes VERY difficult to brute force WPA2.

Gibson makes the good point that randomness in a key is less important than length and character set size. If you use upper and lower case, numbers, and symbols, you can have repeating characters and still have a strong password. The key is the fact that password cracking doesnt let you reveal one character at a time like hollywood movies might lead you to believe. When you try a password you get a 'yes it worked' or 'no it didnt'. So you still need to test every possibility.

Which of the following two passwords is stronger,
more secure, and more difficult to crack?

D0g.....................

PrXyc.N(n4k77#L!eVdAfp9

Password brute force calculator, https://www.grc.com/haystack.htm
 

marksmith21

Banned
Sep 6, 2011
1
0
0
Simply if you are looking for a security for your WiFi. Then you do not need to look around anywhere else, as VPN is the only thing that can help you in this. VPN encrypts all of the data from end user to other network. It is the best security measure for internet users
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
Simply if you are looking for a security for your WiFi. Then you do not need to look around anywhere else, as VPN is the only thing that can help you in this. VPN encrypts all of the data from end user to other network. It is the best security measure for internet users

Incorrect.

While you are correct in stating that VPN provides endpoint to endpoint encryption, you are speaking to the tunneling protocol itself. SSL based connections and IPSec based connections are both tunneling protocols that provide endpoint to endpoint encryption.

WEP, WPA, and WPA2 are all completely different than what you are stating as they operate on different levels of the OSI layered security model. While they operate on Layer 1 (Physical Layer), tunneling protocols operate on Layer 2 or higher (Data-Link Layer and up).

For example ('-' is 1 layer of security while '=' is 2):
(WiFi w/ Wireless Security connecting to secure website):
Computer == Router --- Website

(WiFi w/ Wireless Security connecting to unsecure website):
Computer --- Router Website

(WiFi w/o Wireless Security connecting to unsecure website):
Computer Router Wireless

(WiFi w/o Wireless Security connecting to secure website):
Computer --- Router --- Wireless

-GP
 

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
11,679
0
81
When you say 'virtually immune to a brute force attack', what you actually mean is the only known attack on WPA2 is brute forcing. And if you use a strong enough key, it becomes VERY difficult to brute force WPA2.

Gibson makes the good point that randomness in a key is less important than length and character set size. If you use upper and lower case, numbers, and symbols, you can have repeating characters and still have a strong password. The key is the fact that password cracking doesnt let you reveal one character at a time like hollywood movies might lead you to believe. When you try a password you get a 'yes it worked' or 'no it didnt'. So you still need to test every possibility.



Password brute force calculator, https://www.grc.com/haystack.htm

Correct. The only known vulnerability is brute force attacks. Additionally, should the encryption be implemented properly, a salt is used which negates the only working theory on cracking the AES based encryption used by WPA2.

I agree with the second point, with the caveat that the hacker has done no foot printing whatsoever. Even a basic amount of foot printing might be able to allow you to limit your character set from the full ASCII set to just alphanumeric. This is why I was arguing that increased set size is the single biggest change as each additional character you add to the set increases complexity by 1 order of magnitude (Should the hacker have any idea how complex your password is).

That said, I agree that if the attacker knows nothing about your password and must assume the entire ASCII character set, password length is the only thing that will drive up the run time.

-GP
 

wirednuts

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2007
7,121
4
0
Always assume someone is looking at your data once it leaves your network.

this couldnt be more true! i have lived by this rule for a decade now.. it seems to work. thankfully most website automatically do the secure handling thing when its needed.
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
0
0
you got no clue
SSID is the biggest myth in trying to secure a wireless.

Sorry, but there is essentially nothing wrong with what he posted.


>15 characters and don't use dictionary words, even if you obfusticate them = Win Even with with a bank of GPU or Cell brute force machines, the standard will be replaced long before you are even close to cracking.

The BIGGEST risk is the concept of PSK.... Pre-Shared Keys are the weak link as they are essentially ReShared Keys. Who knows it and how it gets distributed is what you need to worry about. It gets written down or put on a USB key and that is the easiest to crack or social engineer.

A not for home solution is to use EAP-TLS and certificates and those will work wired or wireless with the right equipment (EAP-TLS supporting switches/APs and Radius servers) and supplicants. The built in MS supplicant with AD and MS Certificate Authorities can make most of it automatic for machines that are allowed to join a domain. Who and how a machine is allowed to join a domain becomes your security weakness and that can be enforced at the AD level.
 

gsellis

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2003
6,061
0
0
this couldnt be more true! i have lived by this rule for a decade now.. it seems to work. thankfully most website automatically do the secure handling thing when its needed.
Yep. What I see even at the borders of trusted partner networks makes me go hmmm. When you have private B2B connections and see Chinese internet cafes IP addresses blocked for SSH, jeez.
 

the182guy

Member
Sep 28, 2011
27
0
0
You're pretty safe with WPA2 and a strong password/key. Currently this can't be cracked without a dictionary attack which is useless for a strong password.
 
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