SecuROM Discussion (old)

[EvilComputer92]

I have only ever seen Epic and id actually do that though. Almost everyone else keeps the copy protection on their games indefinitely.

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: waggy
yeah why does the Demo have it? thats just nuts./

So that pirates can't reverse engineer the demo executable and come up with a pirated version of the full version based on that. This is all very silly, and I hope 2K/Sony get nailed hard (again) about this.

 

[imported_Tick]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
Process Manager from Sysinternals is an optional third-party app that happens to now be owned by MS, it is not part of the operating system and it isn't a program a normal gamer "needs" to run.

SecuROM is not blocking Windows Explorer or even Task Manager.

It's mildly annoying that copy protection exists at all, but it seems silly to be outraged by not being able to run a process spy tool without rebooting.

It's not the fact that they are preventing us from using a program, it's that they are trying to tell us how to use our computers.

/Fight the Power!

 

[Appledrop]

wait, so..how do you uninstall securom? Since i installed the Bioshock demo off steam , so apparantly i have it =/

 

[MmmSkyscraper]

I downloaded the BioShock demo (not from Steam) and checked my machine with Rootkit Revealer. I didn't spot anything that looked suspicious? Maybe I'm missing it.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: MmmSkyscraper
I downloaded the BioShock demo (not from Steam) and checked my machine with Rootkit Revealer. I didn't spot anything that looked suspicious? Maybe I'm missing it.

RootKit Revealer found the one in NWN2, perhaps Sony has figured out a way to hide it from RootKit Revealer in this new version or the steam demo lacks it. The demo that is not on Steam has it, according to the reports that I am getting.

 

[hooflung]

So...

If I have FEAR, Bioshock and NWN 2 on my PC at once will I have 3 services that don't conflict with each other runnng for each game when I boot up my PC?

Also, I am very mad the steam version of Bioshock has this DRM. I feel like like I've gotten an STD and need to reformat.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
You have to restart your computer to play securom titles after using tools from Microsoft's SysInternals.

NeverWinter Nights 2 players, such as myself, are angry about SecuROM as well:
http://www.ataricommunity.com/...howthread.php?t=542650


The best advice that I can give to people wanting to play their legally purchased games with valid license keys without the CDs / DVDs is to look into Alcohol 52%:
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...key=y&keyword1=alcohol

Alcohol still requires a valid license of the game to work (you have to legally own the game) and it does not mess with the game itself (no executables of the game are modified in anyway). It is much safer than no-cd patches (which may contain malware) and more ethical (in that it does not modify the game's executable).

It's unethical to personalize something that you paid for and own?

I use cracks all the time (on legit software). As a programmer I have tons of system tools and debugging software installed on my computer and I don't want to deal with the headaches caused by I.P. Nazis changing the locks to my home without my knowledge or consent.

 

[manowar821]

I don't know if this is entirely relevant, but I reinstalled my copy of Chaos Theory about a week ago... This game has StarForce protection, for those who don't already know.

Vista physically refused to install the StarForce drivers, using DEP to prevent it. The error appeared in my install window, but it kept installing. The game didn't run, because the DRM failed to install with it. It looks like Vista's DEP did something useful!

So after some research, I found out there is a StarForce removal tool (which I didn't need thanks to DEP on Vista) and a no CD crack for Chaos Theory that works wonderfully with Vista.

Now I'm running my formerly DRM infected game, infection and CD free.

I also did some "search and destroy" with the SecuROM software. My system is clean, for now.

I'm really bummed that Crysis will have SecuROM. I don't know how that will bode for me, I've been anticipating this game for many moons.

*Long Bump*

 

[Aikouka]

Originally posted by: hooflung
So...

If I have FEAR, Bioshock and NWN 2 on my PC at once will I have 3 services that don't conflict with each other runnng for each game when I boot up my PC?

Also, I am very mad the steam version of Bioshock has this DRM. I feel like like I've gotten an STD and need to reformat.

I'm no expert on SecuRom, but I assume that the only thing another SecuRom-protected game would do is maybe update the service if that game requires a newer version (not necessarily a major revision, but maybe like 7.0.1 to 7.0.2). I know if I were coding SecuRom, that's how I'd handle it... but them copy protection people be a tricky bunch .

 

[exdeath]

Another reason I will probably pick up Bioshock for the 360 instead of my PC.

I fear that if there IS a "death of PC gaming" it will be because of DRM and the eventual adoption of "pay to play" subscription and leasing system, not because of superior/inferior hardware or cost.

Don't believe me? Look what mobile phone providers have been doing taking advantage and leeching the customer ever since they locked down and gained control of the content that is ALLOWED to run on YOUR phone. If DRM makes serious leaps on the PC in terms of hardware support, encrypted buses, etc, you can bet that we will see a mobile phone style pay per view model on the PC... for EVERYTHING. Everyone wants to make an easy buck every time you press a key, once they can lock down your PC and you have no choice.

You will no longer buy a game for $50 that is yours till the day you die or until you sell it used, but like cell phones, you'll have to pay $50 to download it and $15 every 3 months to continue playing it, $5 every time you want to change your wall paper, etc.

Just look at the mobile phone industry's nickel and dime methodology made possible by exclusive content control, and SAY NO TO DRM ON THE PC!!!

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: exdeath
Another reason I will probably pick up Bioshock for the 360 instead of my PC.

I fear that if there IS a "death of PC gaming" it will be because of DRM and the eventual adoption of "pay to play" subscription and leasing system, not because of superior/inferior hardware or cost.

Don't believe me? Look what mobile phone providers have been doing taking advantage and leeching the customer ever since they locked down and gained control of the content that is ALLOWED to run on YOUR phone. If DRM makes serious leaps on the PC in terms of hardware support, encrypted buses, etc, you can bet that we will see a mobile phone style pay per view model on the PC... for EVERYTHING. Everyone wants to make an easy buck every time you press a key, once they can lock down your PC and you have no choice.

You will no longer buy a game for $50 that is yours till the day you die or until you sell it used, but like cell phones, you'll have to pay $50 to download it and $15 every 3 months to continue playing it, $5 every time you want to change your wall paper, etc.

Just look at the mobile phone industry's nickel and dime methodology made possible by exclusive content control, and SAY NO TO DRM ON THE PC!!!

The battle sure is raging, but there are many game producers that refuse to ship their products with DRM installed. There are also companies that go with DRM, hear the public and their complaints, and remove it in a follow up patch.

They are listening, and there are companies that have been on our side the whole time... I'm not worried, yet.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I have Neverwinter Nights 2 installed on my system, and also installed the demos for both FEAR and BioShock as well...based on the info in this thread, I would assume that there is an instance of SecuRom somewhere on my system.

Numerous threads on various message boards mention that SecuRom does not use an exploitable rootkit, so I am not sure what the issue is. I have yet to encounter any compatibility or other issues that would even cause me to go checking for the rootkit.

Honestly, I think this whole controversy is just a way that some gamers justify pirating games...a form of protest I guess against such security measures, but it does become a chicken or egg argument...if gamers didn't pirate games, then developers would have no need for security measures such as SecuRom.

And gamers wonder why developers continue to move away from the PC as a platform, and tend to focus their resources on consoles.

Some of the "outrage" in this thread is a bit dramatic, and self serving to the pirate community that already exists.

 

[CP5670]

Originally posted by: manowar821
I don't know if this is entirely relevant, but I reinstalled my copy of Chaos Theory about a week ago... This game has StarForce protection, for those who don't already know.

Vista physically refused to install the StarForce drivers, using DEP to prevent it. The error appeared in my install window, but it kept installing. The game didn't run, because the DRM failed to install with it. It looks like Vista's DEP did something useful!

So after some research, I found out there is a StarForce removal tool (which I didn't need thanks to DEP on Vista) and a no CD crack for Chaos Theory that works wonderfully with Vista.

Now I'm running my formerly DRM infected game, infection and CD free.

I also did some "search and destroy" with the SecuROM software. My system is clean, for now.

I'm really bummed that Crysis will have SecuROM. I don't know how that will bode for me, I've been anticipating this game for many moons.

*Long Bump*

One good thing about both Starforce and Securom is that they're built into the game exe and not the installer (at least in the cases I've seen), so you can crack the exe before it has a chance to install the junk on your PC.

I hate how the really good games seem to have especially bad DRM schemes, more so than most other titles. SCCT and Bioshock are good examples. SCCT apparently cannot be played at all on Vista or XP64 without the crack, as it uses a slightly older Starforce version that doesn't recognize those OSs.

 

[NotQuiteAPCGuru]

Typically, I would be disinclined to comment, as this has not affected me 'adversely'. HOWEVER, I have read numerous postings, thread after thread and FAQs about DRM causing issues on computers.

I have been building and maintaining my own computers since I tossed out my 166MHz Cyrix beast. I have spent countless hours meticulously installing and cherry picking software and hardware to make my computer run exactly how I want it to run. I pay for my software and hardware.

I am intelligent enough to know that - if I so choose - I could circumvent paying for just about any software, despite DRM-type garbage.

When you put time and effort into something, and you expect it to run very well, and to perform daily tasks; and you install a program that requires you to remove software, or loads potentially unwanted software without your knowledge, or alters your personal configuration, or loads services that require system resources (I don't care how fast the computer is or how tiny the resource req. is) in the hopes that we're not intelligent enough to realize there is an issue at all to prevent piracy on something that has already been pirated...well, that's a problem.

I'm tired of everyone and everything trying to sneak crap into my computer that I work so hard to make exactly what I want, and I believe most of the frustration sets there. It's pointless, and you're only going to give the intelligent people who know what you're up to a reason to A. Not buy your crap., or B. Pirate your crap and not give you a dime., or C. Start studying how to screw your company out of your product like how you screwed the consumers, and giving crackers/coders/hackers more manpower, so to speak.

So, I see a problem with this. If you don't, and you think it's OK, maybe you should do a little more thinking. This seems like common sense to me, but common sense isn't very common; is it?

 

[Acanthus]

Originally posted by: NotQuiteAPCGuru
Typically, I would be disinclined to comment, as this has not affected me 'adversely'. HOWEVER, I have read numerous postings, thread after thread and FAQs about DRM causing issues on computers.

I have been building and maintaining my own computers since I tossed out my 166MHz Cyrix beast. I have spent countless hours meticulously installing and cherry picking software and hardware to make my computer run exactly how I want it to run. I pay for my software and hardware.

I am intelligent enough to know that - if I so choose - I could circumvent paying for just about any software, despite DRM-type garbage.

When you put time and effort into something, and you expect it to run very well, and to perform daily tasks; and you install a program that requires you to remove software, or loads potentially unwanted software without your knowledge, or alters your personal configuration, or loads services that require system resources (I don't care how fast the computer is or how tiny the resource req. is) in the hopes that we're not intelligent enough to realize there is an issue at all to prevent piracy on something that has already been pirated...well, that's a problem.

I'm tired of everyone and everything trying to sneak crap into my computer that I work so hard to make exactly what I want, and I believe most of the frustration sets there. It's pointless, and you're only going to give the intelligent people who know what you're up to a reason to A. Not buy your crap., or B. Pirate your crap and not give you a dime., or C. Start studying how to screw your company out of your product like how you screwed the consumers, and giving crackers/coders/hackers more manpower, so to speak.

So, I see a problem with this. If you don't, and you think it's OK, maybe you should do a little more thinking. This seems like common sense to me, but common sense isn't very common; is it?

You hit the nail on the head.

I dont buy starforce or securom enabled software.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: NotQuiteAPCGuru
Typically, I would be disinclined to comment, as this has not affected me 'adversely'. HOWEVER, I have read numerous postings, thread after thread and FAQs about DRM causing issues on computers.

I have been building and maintaining my own computers since I tossed out my 166MHz Cyrix beast. I have spent countless hours meticulously installing and cherry picking software and hardware to make my computer run exactly how I want it to run. I pay for my software and hardware.

I am intelligent enough to know that - if I so choose - I could circumvent paying for just about any software, despite DRM-type garbage.

When you put time and effort into something, and you expect it to run very well, and to perform daily tasks; and you install a program that requires you to remove software, or loads potentially unwanted software without your knowledge, or alters your personal configuration, or loads services that require system resources (I don't care how fast the computer is or how tiny the resource req. is) in the hopes that we're not intelligent enough to realize there is an issue at all to prevent piracy on something that has already been pirated...well, that's a problem.

I'm tired of everyone and everything trying to sneak crap into my computer that I work so hard to make exactly what I want, and I believe most of the frustration sets there. It's pointless, and you're only going to give the intelligent people who know what you're up to a reason to A. Not buy your crap., or B. Pirate your crap and not give you a dime., or C. Start studying how to screw your company out of your product like how you screwed the consumers, and giving crackers/coders/hackers more manpower, so to speak.

So, I see a problem with this. If you don't, and you think it's OK, maybe you should do a little more thinking. This seems like common sense to me, but common sense isn't very common; is it?

A+ Comment quality. :thumbsup:

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh

Originally posted by: potato28
Or buy the games from alternative sources(Steam) and bypass all the Securrom crap.

:thumbsup:

I find it funny that it only took a couple of years to come up with a system so royally messed up and anti-consumer that Steam looks like a really mild, neigh, acceptable even, form of DRM. The lesser of two evils is still evil folks.

I'll take a box, manual, and game disc that I can give away, sell when I'm done with it, etc. any day of the week over Steam's BS. I hate that I'm going to have to sell C&C 3 and Bioshock now though. I didn't realize SecuROM v7.x has gotten to the same level of invasiveness that Starforce had gotten to. I'll be damned if I allow software to install without my permission, run pervasively on my system, possibly compromise my system's security, and tell me what software is "ok" to run on the hardware I paid good money for!

Vote with your dollars people. It is very unfortunate that this type of crap is going on in the industry. Makes even a long-time PC Gamer like me want to just grab a console and say good riddance to this heavy-handed, 1984-Orwellian BS.

 

[Engraver]

I haven't had a chance to even install it, but I plan to despite all the Securom whining and rants. If it messes up my system, I'll complain then, if not I'll enjoy the game. I keep what I want backed up anyways, and it only takes 15-20 minutes to load my HDD clone of a clean install of Windows. The only thing that would have ticked me off is the 2 install limit, which they have now raised, and are getting ready to offer a revoke tool to make sure you get your install counts back after an uninstall.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
You have to restart your computer to play securom titles after using tools from Microsoft's SysInternals.

NeverWinter Nights 2 players, such as myself, are angry about SecuROM as well:
http://www.ataricommunity.com/...howthread.php?t=542650


The best advice that I can give to people wanting to play their legally purchased games with valid license keys without the CDs / DVDs is to look into Alcohol 52%:
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...key=y&keyword1=alcohol

Alcohol still requires a valid license of the game to work (you have to legally own the game) and it does not mess with the game itself (no executables of the game are modified in anyway). It is much safer than no-cd patches (which may contain malware) and more ethical (in that it does not modify the game's executable).

It's unethical to personalize something that you paid for and own?

I use cracks all the time (on legit software). As a programmer I have tons of system tools and debugging software installed on my computer and I don't want to deal with the headaches caused by I.P. Nazis changing the locks to my home without my knowledge or consent.

Exactly. I'm pretty sure if I buy a car, I can change the paint color, spark plugs, air filter, belts, stereo system, etc etc etc because I own the thing. I'd love to see an automaker enforce an EULA stating you'll only use certain parts on the car or they will revoke your license to drive the vehicle.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: exdeath
Another reason I will probably pick up Bioshock for the 360 instead of my PC.

That's what they want, an extra $10 [$60 (360) vs. $50 (PC)] for the convenience of not having your PC raped.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
I have Neverwinter Nights 2 installed on my system, and also installed the demos for both FEAR and BioShock as well...based on the info in this thread, I would assume that there is an instance of SecuRom somewhere on my system.

Numerous threads on various message boards mention that SecuRom does not use an exploitable rootkit, so I am not sure what the issue is. I have yet to encounter any compatibility or other issues that would even cause me to go checking for the rootkit.

Honestly, I think this whole controversy is just a way that some gamers justify pirating games...a form of protest I guess against such security measures, but it does become a chicken or egg argument...if gamers didn't pirate games, then developers would have no need for security measures such as SecuRom.

And gamers wonder why developers continue to move away from the PC as a platform, and tend to focus their resources on consoles.

Some of the "outrage" in this thread is a bit dramatic, and self serving to the pirate community that already exists.

You are disillusioned and out of touch with reality if you think DRM inconveniences pirates one little bit.

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
I have Neverwinter Nights 2 installed on my system, and also installed the demos for both FEAR and BioShock as well...based on the info in this thread, I would assume that there is an instance of SecuRom somewhere on my system.

Numerous threads on various message boards mention that SecuRom does not use an exploitable rootkit, so I am not sure what the issue is. I have yet to encounter any compatibility or other issues that would even cause me to go checking for the rootkit.

Honestly, I think this whole controversy is just a way that some gamers justify pirating games...a form of protest I guess against such security measures, but it does become a chicken or egg argument...if gamers didn't pirate games, then developers would have no need for security measures such as SecuRom.

And gamers wonder why developers continue to move away from the PC as a platform, and tend to focus their resources on consoles.

Some of the "outrage" in this thread is a bit dramatic, and self serving to the pirate community that already exists.

You are disillusioned and out of touch with reality if you think DRM inconveniences pirates one little bit.

Indeed.

I could pirate every single game I own, with little to no heart-ache, if I wanted to. Every game, piece of software, and music track is only 10+/- clicks away.

I don't though, I buy my games like everyone should, to support the artists who create them.

The entire concept of installable DRM schemes is immoral. My system should run only what I wish it to, how I wish it to. I paid for, and worked hard on my system, just like the software makers did. In addition to this, the protection schemes really do create issues for gamers and professionals alike, my OP being a good example of this.

So, those are two damning reasons to not force DRM on your customers. It's wrong (the idealist side of me), and it interferes with efficient and easy computing (the practical side of me).

 

[Starbuck1975]

So, I see a problem with this. If you don't, and you think it's OK, maybe you should do a little more thinking. This seems like common sense to me, but common sense isn't very common; is it?

I don't see a problem with this, I have thought about it, and common sense tells me that some of you are blowing this way out of proportion.

If anything, this thread motivated me TO purchase BioShock for the PC...because at the end of the day, the developers crafted an amazing gameplay experience, and that is really all that matters.

You are disillusioned and out of touch with reality if you think DRM inconveniences pirates one little bit.

Perhaps not, but we wouldn't even be having this conversation about DRM were it not for pirates...funny how I don't remember this ever being a problem in the early 90s when PC gaming was just starting to build momentum, and the internet was still in its infancy.

Instead of focusing our collective geek rage on 2K games, maybe we should instead be upset with the cheap gamers out there who will shell out $3000 to build an amazing gaming rig, yet won't spend $50 on a game because they can get it for free on the internet.

 

[Beev]

More companies need to follow Bethesda's lead. They knew Oblivion was going to be godly, and that it would sell like crazy, so what do they do? No key or protection or anything, just a simple CD check. basically, if a company knows they're making an amazing game, take off the protection, because it WILL sell awesome.

Not practical I guess, but I'd sure love it...