Self driving car kills a pedestrian

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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,034
2,613
136
Again the details are really needed to see what happened and who was at fault just like in any sort of car accident. What I can say is in cases where humans are involved almost certainly the legal fault falls on the deceased (in fact this is why some say the way to definitely get away with murder is to use a car). This is due to a number of reasons, largely the fact the deceased cannot really mount a defense for themselves and often the only credible evidence is the eyewitness account of the driver.

But anyway I will not think too much into this and simply think it needs to be investigated like all other accidents.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
I guess a good part is the car should be logging events extensively. So it should not be tough to figure out what the car thought was going on. So, unlike humans, the self driving cars won't lie about whether or not they were distracted, or leave the scene to sober up to avoid a DUI/oui, or hit and run...etc....
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
136
As expected:

Chief of Police Sylvia Moir told the San Francisco Chronicle on Monday that video footage taken from cameras equipped to the autonomous Volvo SUV potentially shift the blame to the victim herself, 49-year-old Elaine Herzberg, rather than the vehicle.

It’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode [autonomous or human-driven] based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway,” Moir told the paper, adding that the incident occurred roughly 100 yards from a crosswalk. “It is dangerous to cross roadways in the evening hour when well-illuminated managed crosswalks are available,” she said.​

http://fortune.com/2018/03/19/uber-self-driving-car-crash/
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,931
5,803
126
One of the big benefits of self-driving cars is the ability to have car services drive you around like an Uber. A car would take you to work and then go off moving other people around rather than just being parked at your office. If every car was self-driving and doing this, it would cut down on the number of cars in a city significantly.
Except that everyone is pretty much going to work at the same time. The traffic problem isn't when people aren't at work, it's when people are trying to get to work.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,657
5,346
136
It probably was her fault. Human drivers injure or kill jaywalkers all the time, because it isn't always easy to stop in time when someone dashes into traffic, especially at night. And if a car does stop without warning that could cause an accident with the cars behind it. Crosswalks exist for a reason.

Uber management are (or at least were) scum who deserve prison time for their law-breaking and abuse of their "contractors," but they aren't always in the wrong. Just most of the time.
I'll accept this as long as we agree that "aren't always in the wrong" equals less that one percent of the time.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,595
7,653
136
Would you have massive swathes of people, effectively under house arrest, because they are "unwanted" in society, and are unable to take ANY transportation at all? Think of those scenes in Minority Report. We don't need that in a Free Society.

Edit: Freedom is more important than Safety. If 10,000 people die each year on the highways and roads due to human error, so that we may remain free, so be it!

As much as I appreciate the sentiment, the idea that a personal vehicle can keep you "free" is laughable. If a tyrant wants to strip our liberties, they shall do so in Washington DC and our federal and local authorities will enforce their will. All they'd have to do is ration and control gasoline, no automated vehicles necessary when you have to be a loyal party member to fill up your gas tank. The various ways our fed gov can enslave us are innumerable and immeasurable. They hold ultimate authority and power over all things.

No, romanticizing riding around in a pickup truck with a pea shooter isn't going to win you a war for freedom. At best you'd die in a world of anarchy, blood, and chaos like the poor Iraqi and Syrians have these past 15 years. Is slaughter and genocide a victory for freedom to you? No. The only real, honest, way to protect our freedom(s) is to keep watch over and ensure good governance. To demand it. To push for that above all else. That is the one consideration we need to protect in order to keep our freedom.

Attempting to hold back technological and capitalistic advances will do you no good. For most people, owning a vehicle will no longer make ANY economic sense. It's far cheaper to use an automated taxi. Do you really intend to deny our people a safety and economic advantage? Must 40,000+ Americans die annually to balm your fear of government?
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
Except that everyone is pretty much going to work at the same time. The traffic problem isn't when people aren't at work, it's when people are trying to get to work.
As a mobile employee, I work out of my car. Having the car drive me around so I can work from my devices seems like a damn good thing.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,098
126
Except that everyone is pretty much going to work at the same time. The traffic problem isn't when people aren't at work, it's when people are trying to get to work.
I'm not saying it's going to eliminate traffic, but it should cut down on the number of cars parked on the street and encourage car pooling. Once cities ban human-driven vehicles, there shouldn't been as much of a need for stop lights. I heard one expert on NPR claim it would cut the number of vehicles in a city by 80%, which I think is absurd, but if it only prevents an increase in vehicles as cities grow, I think it will be a positive.

I'm still skeptical of the technology, but I'm ready for it to be a reality.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,212
136
I'm not saying it's going to eliminate traffic, but it should cut down on the number of cars parked on the street and encourage car pooling. Once cities ban human-driven vehicles, there shouldn't been as much of a need for stop lights. I heard one expert on NPR claim it would cut the number of vehicles in a city by 80%, which I think is absurd, but if it only prevents an increase in vehicles as cities grow, I think it will be a positive.

I'm still skeptical of the technology, but I'm ready for it to be a reality.

If the cars aren't parked on the street, then they are going to be driving around constantly. They will still be taking up roadspace, surely? Plus more car use = wearing out faster = more car production = more environmental costs. I still don't get the argument that self-driving-cars means fewer cars. Why would that be the case? On the contrary, it means car use will increase as it won't be limited to those able or willing to drive themselves, and may indeed involve empty cars travelling to-and-fro to pick people up.

And I don't quite get the point about stop-lights either. Without stop lights, how will any pedestrian cross the road? If the cars are programmed to always stop when any pedestrian is detected, then there will pretty soon be complaints from car users about peds constantly walking in front of them and making it hard for them to get anywhere. Next step will logically be stronger laws to ban pedestrians from the streets or an intentional weakening of the cars' willingness to stop rather than drive into things.

The whole thing just looks way more complex and fraught than the hype suggests. Though I admit I am exclusively thinking of crowded urban areas, not so much 'interstates' and rural highways (the non-urban world is a foreign country to me)
 

DrunkenSano

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2008
3,892
490
126
As expected:

Chief of Police Sylvia Moir told the San Francisco Chronicle on Monday that video footage taken from cameras equipped to the autonomous Volvo SUV potentially shift the blame to the victim herself, 49-year-old Elaine Herzberg, rather than the vehicle.

It’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode [autonomous or human-driven] based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway,” Moir told the paper, adding that the incident occurred roughly 100 yards from a crosswalk. “It is dangerous to cross roadways in the evening hour when well-illuminated managed crosswalks are available,” she said.​

http://fortune.com/2018/03/19/uber-self-driving-car-crash/

Not surprised, automated vehicles go through a ton of testing before being released on the road. Chances are the person did not follow the rule of not jaywalking and just ran out into incoming traffic, something we teach little kids not to do. Can't fix people not being safe themselves, this has nothing to do with a problem with automated cars.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,298
8,212
136
As a mobile employee, I work out of my car. Having the car drive me around so I can work from my devices seems like a damn good thing.

But to do that they'd have to advance to the point where it was not necessary to ever have a human driver take over.
Not surprised, automated vehicles go through a ton of testing before being released on the road. Chances are the person did not follow the rule of not jaywalking and just ran out into incoming traffic, something we teach little kids not to do. Can't fix people not being safe themselves, this has nothing to do with a problem with automated cars.

Yeah, but the 'rules of not jaywalking' were invented by the car lobby itself as a way to shift responsibility onto its victims, so your argument is a mite circular.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
What's frustrating is that this will probably trigger at least a mild backlash against self-driving vehicles, even though they should ultimately be safer than human-piloted cars.

Yes, something clearly went wrong, and yes, this is tragic and would ideally have been avoidable. But I'm worried this will lead to knee-jerk reactions in the public and legislatures rather than a careful, considered response that might lead to better regulation and cultural understanding.

There's already been a knee jerk reaction from the assumption of safety and the failure to think things through. I'm not arguing against automation, but automation which cannot be overridden.

In a situation where someone has to die, who is it? How is that decision made by machine? What "ethics" does the programming have? Will it kill the occupant rather than veer into a bunch of school children? Does a machine have the right to kill you?

These aren't trivial "what if's", there are situations which will occur that require a sacrifice of lives simply because machines are not capable of anticipating everything.

A lot of things need to be resolved before complete reliance on automation is implemented.
 
Reactions: Bitek

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
33,929
1,098
126
If the cars aren't parked on the street, then they are going to be driving around constantly. They will still be taking up roadspace, surely?
I don't know what road parking is like where you live, but here in St. Louis they literally take up a lane on the road. The place where they park is marked as a lane and if there are no cars can be used as a lane, but it is also zoned for parking. It seems really stupid, but if those cars aren't parked, it frees up a lane. Even if they're on the roads, they are likely not all on that road at the same time, so the load is spread out.

Plus more car use = wearing out faster = more car production = more environmental costs. I still don't get the argument that self-driving-cars means fewer cars. Why would that be the case? On the contrary, it means car use will increase as it won't be limited to those able or willing to drive themselves, and may indeed involve empty cars travelling to-and-fro to pick people up.
I was making the assumption that we were talking about electric cars, which as I understand them are less prone to mechanical failures. Additionally, they'd be able to ferry themselves to a garage for pickup.
And I don't quite get the point about stop-lights either. Without stop lights, how will any pedestrian cross the road? If the cars are programmed to always stop when any pedestrian is detected, then there will pretty soon be complaints from car users about peds constantly walking in front of them and making it hard for them to get anywhere. Next step will logically be stronger laws to ban pedestrians from the streets or an intentional weakening of the cars' willingness to stop rather than drive into things.
This is a problem I haven't heard a good solution for in cases where there are a lot of pedestrians. At those intersections you'd basically have to have a stop light or some analogue.
The whole thing just looks way more complex and fraught than the hype suggests. Though I admit I am exclusively thinking of crowded urban areas, not so much 'interstates' and rural highways (the non-urban world is a foreign country to me)

I don't think it's going to be nearly as easy as everyone suggests. I keep hearing about cities, but I think driverless cars will take off in the suburbs and "easy" rural areas first. Unfortunately for the US, our infrastructure is built around cars and very few cities have decent mass transit. Even in DC the metro isn't great. I'm not a big fan of large cities, I don't really understand why anyone would want to live or work in one, but if we're going to keep cramming millions of people into small areas, we're going to have to re-think the way we live and commute, which people aren't going to do unless they're forced to.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
One perosn died from a self driving car. 1!

How many people die at the hands from other humans? ITS IN THE THOUSANDS.

1 vs Thousands.

And how many human driven cars are on the road for every self-driving car? 100,000 to 1?

The safety of this technology remains a question mark.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,218
4,446
136
But to do that they'd have to advance to the point where it was not necessary to ever have a human driver take over.
And that will come, probably sooner than later. Technology like this advanced at a exponential rate. It will be only a few years before antonymous cars are considerably better drivers than even the best trained human drivers. They have a lot of advantages over humans after all. Better sensors, 360 awareness, no distractions, faster decision making, faster reactions.


Yeah, but the 'rules of not jaywalking' were invented by the car lobby itself as a way to shift responsibility onto its victims, so your argument is a mite circular.

The rule of no jaywalking is a logical conclusion based on the fact that a heavy vehicle traveling at speed is very limited in it's ability to stop or avoid a pedestrian that can enter the road at any point with no warning.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,602
29,319
136
Guys! Everyone just calm down! It wasn't even a person that was killed. It was just a ciclist.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,595
7,653
136
And how many human driven cars are on the road for every self-driving car? 100,000 to 1?

The safety of this technology remains a question mark.

Sure, and this is just the beginning. It'll only evolve and become more refined as development continues. This is the technology's most dangerous point, at introduction. Every successive year it'll surpass human safety by ever an increasing standard. Frankly, you've seen other drivers right? The bar is set pretty god damn low, all the AI has to do is not intentionally try to kill other people and it'd be a step up from human drivers.

There WILL be some stumbling as we take our first few steps. It is perfectly natural for there to be some danger and some failures now. But the destination at the end of this road is to save the lives of 40,000 people EVERY YEAR. And that's just in the United States.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
And how many human driven cars are on the road for every self-driving car? 100,000 to 1?

The safety of this technology remains a question mark.

Of course it does. But it will get better. And the two instances I know about a self driving car getting into an accident. It was deemed a humans fault, not the computer.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Sure, and this is just the beginning. It'll only evolve and become more refined as development continues. This is the technology's most dangerous point, at introduction. Every successive year it'll surpass human safety by ever an increasing standard. Frankly, you've seen other drivers right? The bar is set pretty god damn low, all the AI has to do is not intentionally try to kill other people and it'd be a step up from human drivers.

There WILL be some stumbling as we take our first few steps. It is perfectly natural for there to be some danger and some failures now. But the destination at the end of this road is to save the lives of 40,000 people EVERY YEAR. And that's just in the United States.

How does a machine decide who to kill when there is no alternative? Should it be able to kill you instead of a child?

There's a lot of faith without a consideration of inherent problems.
 
Reactions: pmv

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,602
29,319
136
How does a machine decide who to kill when there is no alternative? Should it be able to kill you instead of a child?

There's a lot of faith without a consideration of inherent problems.
Whatever we decide, the machines will be able to react much faster than any human would.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
From what I have read of this specific scenario, it doesn't matter if the car was autonomous or manually driven, there was no time to react.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Whatever we decide, the machines will be able to react much faster than any human would.

Who exactly is "we" and how do "they" program "their" ethics? What is "right" and what is "wrong" and do we as individuals have any say besides "well just don't drive then"?

Explain how a car will be able to make moral choices in objective reality than you or I? No AI of any magnitude in the real world has become a superior moral being. How does that work in less than vague terms? What effective philosophy will your car have?

These aren't questions I alone am asking, and no not by crockpots. This is one facet of a larger concern in terms of AI's who control us.

Can we make improvements? Sure. Is automated driving "evil"? Of course not, but I see a lack of appreciation for the complexities in more than just faster computational ability terms.

When should your car tell you when to die and why is it morally superior to you to make that decision?

Questions that need to be answered.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,595
7,653
136
How does a machine decide who to kill when there is no alternative? Should it be able to kill you instead of a child?
What effective philosophy will your car have?

The one our laws set forth.

Frankly, it'd be foolish to design a vehicle to purposefully swerve out of control to avoid a person, even a child. You'd be putting everyone else around you at risk and still potentially failing at the original objective. OTOH, I can see future generations of this automation being capable of regaining control of the vehicle in situations that would have been impossible for humans to survive. But I digress....

You think it's wrong to have a cold, calculated, and socially agreed upon answer to no win scenarios, in exchange for saving 40,000 annually? Let's say you will not change the no win scenario, but you CAN save those 40,000 people.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
38,003
18,350
146
But to do that they'd have to advance to the point where it was not necessary to ever have a human driver take over

Yes, that's correct, and generally where the idea of self driving cars is headed.
 
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