Senate rejects Universal Background Checks

Page 8 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

seepy83

Platinum Member
Nov 12, 2003
2,132
3
71
Does someone have a link to the bill that was blocked yesterday?

I was just having a conversation with a couple of people about it, and I want to read the bill as it was written. Too much "he said, she said, my neighbor said it does this, my hunting buddy said it does that, the liberals say no it doesn't, the conservatives say yes it does, blah blah blah". Someone have the text?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,909
136
Does someone have a link to the bill that was blocked yesterday?

I was just having a conversation with a couple of people about it, and I want to read the bill as it was written. Too much "he said, she said, my neighbor said it does this, my hunting buddy said it does that, the liberals say no it doesn't, the conservatives say yes it does, blah blah blah". Someone have the text?

Depends on what you're asking about. If you're asking about the Safe Communities Safe Schools Act of 2013 here's the full text:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c113:S.649:

The thing is that the bill was also subject to a lot of amendments that would have materially changed it. They are located here:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdque...:1[1-23](Amendments_For_S.649)&./temp/~bd7XGw
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,103
1,550
126
Depends on what you're asking about. If you're asking about the Safe Communities Safe Schools Act of 2013 here's the full text:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c113:S.649:

The thing is that the bill was also subject to a lot of amendments that would have materially changed it. They are located here:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdque...:1[1-23](Amendments_For_S.649)&./temp/~bd7XGw

Beat me by a minute.
If you're ever curious you can see any bills in Congress that were brought up on any date at http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/R?d113:FLD010:+@eq+20130417

Just change the number at the end of the URL to the date you're curious about.
 

seepy83

Platinum Member
Nov 12, 2003
2,132
3
71
Thanks.

Just to be clear...S.649 and all of those amendments were voted on (as a whole) and not passed yesterday, right?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
This is hilarious, the looks on their faces and the facepalm by biden. They look so sad and distraught. Glorious day indeed.

 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
This is hilarious, the looks on their faces and the facepalm by biden. They look so sad and distraught. Glorious day indeed.


Biden is probably thinking "Why did I say that none of these laws would do much to help gun violence?"
 

airdata

Diamond Member
Jul 11, 2010
4,987
0
0
oh, he mad!

This never should have seen a vote in the first place. Everybody who knows anything knows that this is pointless. There are already measures in place to prevent criminals for owning guns and stiff penalties for criminals caught using guns in crimes and felons caught w\ guns.

None of this would have prevented sandy hook from happening. None of it. Smaller magazine size? Shooter would have had to reload more often, that's it.

At some point this pointless bullshit to try to pretend you're doing something about something you can do nothing about has to stop... they just need to accept the fact that crazy shit like sandy hook can and will happen... and in the end you're not going to stop every tragedy from happening.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,103
1,550
126
Doesn't matter, because the Senate just told the president to go fuck himself. Glorious. Lame duck president is lame duck.

45% of the Senate just told We the People to go fuck ourselves more like it. Over 90% polled immediately after Sandy Hook supported this. More recently still over 80% polled support this. The NRA has figured out how easy it is to brainwash the crazy and the stupid.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
oh, he mad!

This never should have seen a vote in the first place. Everybody who knows anything knows that this is pointless. There are already measures in place to prevent criminals for owning guns and stiff penalties for criminals caught using guns in crimes and felons caught w\ guns.

None of this would have prevented sandy hook from happening. None of it. Smaller magazine size? Shooter would have had to reload more often, that's it.

At some point this pointless bullshit to try to pretend you're doing something about something you can do nothing about has to stop... they just need to accept the fact that crazy shit like sandy hook can and will happen... and in the end you're not going to stop every tragedy from happening.

Wow, you actually can espouse something sane from time to time eh?

There are measures one can do to reduce the likelyhood of another Sandy Hook. Gun bans are not the way though.

Why do we have police in our towns? Why do banks have guards? Why do armed cars have guards? Why do huge corporate buildings have security forces?

High priority targets that tempt criminals require an active defense. A sign saying "gun free zone" does nothing to deter a criminal. Not a damn thing. We use trustworthy armed forces to defend high priority targets for a reason. Why do these legislators consider our children any less important than a shipment of money?
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
45% of the Senate just told We the People to go fuck ourselves more like it. Over 90% polled immediately after Sandy Hook supported this. More recently still over 80% polled support this. The NRA has figured out how easy it is to brainwash the crazy and the stupid.

Polls are stupid, especially those polls you've been listing. I've even explained several times why those polls were not neutral in their conduction and how they were done to generate a data set the pollers wanted.

If you want to use polls though, the most recent Gallup pol shows that less than 6% of Americans even care about gun legislation at all. That even in your "polls" to the ones you've listed, the cast majority those polls said they would rather not introduce new gun legislation.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,909
136
Doesn't matter, because the Senate just told the president to go fuck himself. Glorious. Lame duck president is lame duck.

Lol. Have you forgotten saying basically the same thing in 2010, 2011, and 2012? Has been being hilariously wrong over and over taught you anything?

Has your wallet forgotten you saying those things?
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
11,103
1,550
126
Polls are stupid, especially those polls you've been listing. I've even explained several times why those polls were not neutral in their conduction and how they were done to generate a data set the pollers wanted.

If you want to use polls though, the most recent Gallup pol shows that less than 6% of Americans even care about gun legislation at all. That even in your "polls" to the ones you've listed, the cast majority those polls said they would rather not introduce new gun legislation.

I saw your "I don't like the conclusion so I'm going to make stuff up to support my own views" argument in the thread. Just like I reject your lie that only 6% of American care about gun legislation. (quite a bit more care they just don't hold it as a top priority)
And you last sentence was so disjointed I don't even know what you were trying to say, so I'll just assume it was wrong like the rest.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,909
136
Polls are stupid, especially those polls you've been listing. I've even explained several times why those polls were not neutral in their conduction and how they were done to generate a data set the pollers wanted.

And you were incorrect. You have done neither. Not only was your description of the questions technically incorrect, you attempted to substitute overly technical wording which is itself a problematic question phrasing.

You also have made repeated unfounded statements about sample bias favoring urban areas despite providing no statistical support for such an assertion. (also you failed to explain why polls are so accurate in tested situations, given such a bias).

Needless to say, your complaints against scientific polling were shit.

If you want to use polls though, the most recent Gallup pol shows that less than 6% of Americans even care about gun legislation at all. That even in your "polls" to the ones you've listed, the cast majority those polls said they would rather not introduce new gun legislation.

Your description of that poll is false. The Gallup poll asked if they viewed it as the most important problem facing America, not if they cared about it at all. For someone who just complained about question wording, your choice to ignore it here is... curious.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
I saw your "I don't like the conclusion so I'm going to make stuff up to support my own views" argument in the thread. Just like I reject your lie that only 6% of American care about gun legislation. (quite a bit more care they just don't hold it as a top priority)
And you last sentence was so disjointed I don't even know what you were trying to say, so I'll just assume it was wrong like the rest.

What? Make things up? I pointed to the wording as being completely non-neutral. Using media buzzwords and leading questions is what makes a bad poll a bad poll.

There is a reason for the saying, "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics".... Polling is another for of statistical data. Yet it is FAR more prone to error. Especially those based upon solely the opinions of those being polled. Especially when dealing with opinions of a small sample group and then trying to apply the responded opinions to a larger and far more diverse group in their opinions. Especially when the method of weighting and how they "randomized" their poll contacts are not released.

Political polls are nothing but a pile of poop. Every single one of them. They are horrible data generators the vast majority of time. Laws should NEVER be made off polls. Ever. Especially polls on opinions from the "common" man. The average person at best may be fairly intelligent but doesn't have enough information to formulate a good opinion, and at worst the "average" person is a complete idiot on the subject being asked in the poll.

For example, if a poll were made asking users, if they felt Jersey shore was a "bad" show or a "good" show, I can pretty much tell you even at the height of the shows popularity, the vast majority of people polled would state that Jersey Shore was a bad show. That didn't stop people from watching it. That's why polls like that are ridiculous. Even as companys send out surveys and questionaires, they take the answers given in a grain of salt. It's just a data point, and a very small one, when used to make business decisions. ANY highly placed executive will tell you that trying to based business decisions upon the results of surveys is just ASKING to be put out of business. Ask JCPenny how well that strategy worked for them recently.


Your argument of a poll for gun legislation is stupid. The poll was bad and unsound in it's methodology of approach. Polls in general are unreliable data points in the overall scheme of big decision making. Especially polls based upon opinions of "random" and "average" people. However, in the end it doesn't matter. Logic prevails over opinion polls from emotionally reacted average people.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
And you were incorrect. You have done neither. Not only was your description of the questions technically incorrect, you attempted to substitute overly technical wording which is itself a problematic question phrasing.

You also have made repeated unfounded statements about sample bias favoring urban areas despite providing no statistical support for such an assertion. (also you failed to explain why polls are so accurate in tested situations, given such a bias).

Needless to say, your complaints against scientific polling were shit.



Your description of that poll is false. The Gallup poll asked if they viewed it as the most important problem facing America, not if they cared about it at all. For someone who just complained about question wording, your choice to ignore it here is... curious.


Really, you need to take the time to read this.

http://www.science20.com/science_20/how_accurate_are_those_political_polls-95996


Polls are a statistical data set to use after the fact. But they are rarely used in good science, or data measurement. They are even worse with politics.

Worse yet with sports. Ask every year which team will win a specific sport at the end of the season. While polls are good a weeding out, sometimes, those least likely to win even those have been proven wrong on many occasions.
 
Last edited:

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,651
50,909
136
Really, you need to take the time to read this.

http://www.science20.com/science_20/how_accurate_are_those_political_polls-95996


Polls are a statistical data set to use after the fact. But they are rarely used in good science, or data measurement. They are even worse with politics.

If anyone needs to take the time to read that article it's you.

First, he was arguing about the use of statistics in predictive modeling, not whether or not polls are accurate. In particular he was attacking likely voter screens (although not by name). None of that is present in this sort of poll. None. Public polls are estimates, not concrete predictions; that's what the margin of error is all about. Needless to say with the polling on background checks the results are light years outside of the margin of error. I sincerely doubt the author would have any issues with them whatsoever.

Furthermore, and this is really the best part, you just linked to a guy who bet against the predictive power of scientific polling and lost. He didn't lose by just a little either, he literally lost as badly as it was possible to lose. His bet was that if Nate Silver predicted fewer than 48 out of 50 states correctly that he would win. He said he was so confident he even gave his opponent a free extra state. He even mentioned that if we were doing a REAL bet on Silver's methodology he would have to get all 50 right to win.

Not only did Silver predict 48 correctly, he was right on all 50 (and DC), a success rate of 100%. If you're trying to make a statement against stats you probably don't want to link to a guy who just got his ass handed to him.

Worse yet with sports. Ask every year which team will win a specific sport at the end of the season. While polls are good a weeding out, sometimes, those least likely to win even those have been proven wrong on many occasions.

This is so wrong I don't know where to start. Sports polling is about what people guess for the future, not about what is. What those polls show is that people are bad at sports betting, not that polls are inaccurate.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,306
3
0
Feinstein is lamenting this bill's failure. She referred to the guns repeatedly as military style and even used the term "big velocity guns". Really as long as people like her are frothing at the mouth and cannot concisely and intelligently speak about the topic they are irresponsible to be passing new laws.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
If anyone needs to take the time to read that article it's you.

First, he was arguing about the use of statistics in predictive modeling, not whether or not polls are accurate. In particular he was attacking likely voter screens (although not by name). None of that is present in this sort of poll. None. Public polls are estimates, not concrete predictions; that's what the margin of error is all about. Needless to say with the polling on background checks the results are light years outside of the margin of error. I sincerely doubt the author would have any issues with them whatsoever.

Furthermore, and this is really the best part, you just linked to a guy who bet against the predictive power of scientific polling and lost. He didn't lose by just a little either, he literally lost as badly as it was possible to lose. His bet was that if Nate Silver predicted fewer than 48 out of 50 states correctly that he would win. He said he was so confident he even gave his opponent a free extra state. He even mentioned that if we were doing a REAL bet on Silver's methodology he would have to get all 50 right to win.

Not only did Silver predict 48 correctly, he was right on all 50 (and DC), a success rate of 100%. If you're trying to make a statement against stats you probably don't want to link to a guy who just got his ass handed to him.



This is so wrong I don't know where to start. Sports polling is about what people guess for the future, not about what is. What those polls show is that people are bad at sports betting, not that polls are inaccurate.


He said, Nate made the prediction and got it right. That doesn't mean to say the same thing that the method to his poll or prediction was any more valid than ANY OTHER poll or prediction that stated other outcomes. There were other outcomes and those lost. He also states, that Nate's prediction being right once doesn't mean it will be right in the future. It certainly could be, but it's basically no better nor worse than something like watching when a ground hog pops out of the ground to tell if winter will come early or late this year.

While something like a ground hog popping out of the ground doesn't allow people to control variables, that doesn't make other polling or prediction based methods any more valid. In real science they are just one more tool. They are never the only tool. Most scientists will tell you it not even that great of a tool.

OPINION Polls are even worse than scientific statistics where variables can be accounted for. It's even worse when the person polling uses a weighting system and one they do not disclose. As in the polls listed in this thread. For example, what if the weighting system in that poll was to exclude any answers made by a person being polled that was from a rural zipcode when phoned?

We do not know if that was done or not done. Not without full disclosure. A weighting system that did that would certainly skew the data being presented by the poll.

Nor are polls from people's opinions EVER considered good. Language matters in such polls. MASSIVELY matters. It doesn't take much more than a single word change in most questions to change the outcome of a given poll drastically in many cases.

http://cstl-cla.semo.edu/renka/Renka_papers/polls.htm

Polls CAN be made better than others. They are a useful tool as a guideline and starting point. Not once have I said otherwise. I said it's just decision making to place all your bets on the outcome of a poll. Many have in the past and been massively burned by that. I use JCPenny as an example in my last post. There are plenty of others.

The point I'm making is that even the best polls are still just "educated guesses" for a specific outcome. Rallying around the outcome of a poll as your sole basis for decision making is fucking stupid.

I also pointed out how the poll in question as used is a BAD one. It uses too small a sample size. No release of how the randomization of sample selection was done. No mention of how weighting for various questions of the poll was done. The language was not vetted, nor was a release of a vetting process done. The language was hardly neutral as buzz words from the media were plentiful in the poll. Such as the use of the word GUNSHOW loophole. That connotates a derogatory outcome in anyone's mind. Nor was there a release on how the poll questions were asked. Was it an automated computer voice poll? Or was there a live person? If live, how were they directed to ask the questions? What was the specific order of the questions?

Those are all relevant to determining how useful any data gained by a poll is. In the case of the poll done by both Shoen and the GKP group... NONE of that information is released to the public. As such, they are horrible polls.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |