Senate votes to fund border fence.

[wetech]

It's a start at least. 370 miles of fence and 500 miles of vehicle barriers.

Link

The amendment's sponsor said senators were so embarrassed by that July 13 vote that most felt they had to reverse course and vote for it this time -- especially after so many were on record in May voting to build the fence in the first place. The amendment, which provides nearly $2 billion for the project, passed 94-3, with 66 senators switching from "no" to "yes" votes since last month

Also some good news regarding NG deployment at the border:

This week, the president reached his goal of assigning 6,000 Guard troops to the border states by Aug. 1. Still, of the 6,340 troops assigned as of yesterday, only 2,675 troops, or 42 percent, were "forward deployed." The rest are at joint task force headquarters, in training or in transit.
But the Guard's presence has led to a 25 percent drop in apprehensions at the border compared with the same time last year, suggesting the troops are having success in preventing illegal aliens from trying to cross.

25% drop with only ~40% actively deployed is pretty good. Hopefully the levels will drop further once more troops start patrolling.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

OMFG.

Our government is actually going to DO SOMETHING about this problem! I never would've believed it; I figured they'd just bat it around as long as it was still in the news, and then drop it immediately as soon as the media moved on to the next story.

I'm not saying I think it will work...but yes, at least its a start.

 

[tommywishbone]

On a similar note; I understand Farmer Jones is planning on closing his barn doors... his cows walked away, three months ago.

 

[Moonbeam]

The fence was a way to avoid the simple solution of arresting anybody who hires an illegal. The real solution will be avoided at all cost.

 

[randym431]

Are they nutz? THEY ARE NUTZ!

I'd guess, maybe .00001% of illegal?s come across by going over a fence or under a fence. 99.999999% come by planes, trucks, vans, rail, etc etc.
NOTHING is going to change just because a fence, electrified or greased, is put up.
WHAT A LOT OF BULL!!!

Why do you think illegal?s, working in the U.S., send all their $$$ right back across the border via money orders and checks? So their other family members can PAY the smugglers that (HEY) GET THEM HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE (via cars, vans, planes, rail, etc etc).

Smuggling illegal?s is B.I.G. business. You can get ANYONE illegal over into this country for about $1000.

No fence is going to stop that!!!

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: randym431
Are they nutz? THEY ARE NUTZ!

I'd guess, maybe .00001% of illegal?s come across by going over a fence or under a fence. 99.999999% come by planes, trucks, vans, rail, etc etc.
NOTHING is going to change just because a fence, electrified or greased, is put up.
WHAT A LOT OF BULL!!!

Why do you think illegal?s, working in the U.S., send all their $$$ right back across the border via money orders and checks? So their other family members can PAY the smugglers that (HEY) GET THEM HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE (via cars, vans, planes, rail, etc etc).

Smuggling illegal?s is B.I.G. business. You can get ANYONE illegal over into this country for about $1000.

No fence is going to stop that!!!

I'm pretty sure most illegals skip across the border along the non-fenced/undefended parts...

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: randym431
I'd guess, maybe .00001% of illegal?s come across by going over a fence or under a fence. 99.999999% come by planes, trucks, vans, rail, etc etc.

This is simply very wrong. As far as illegals from places other than Mexico, some do initially come in on valid tourist or academic visas and the like before overstaying thier visas and remaining the US. As far as Mexico is concerned the overwhelming porportion of the immigrants get across the border on foot, generally on the poorly guarded parts of the border without any real fence. You might have the rare person who has good enough counterfeit documents to get across in a more blatant manner, but the reality is those trying to actually drive across the border generally get caught, with the car likely seized which is another deterent from trying that. The reality is that without very good identification that someone is a US citizen, or the right sort of documentation to allow someone legal entry into the US, (its not that easy for the average Mexican citizen to get this) you're not getting into the US by plane. This is especially true since the airlines are actually required by law to immediately send anyone caught trying to get into the US by plane back to their original destination, at the airliner's expense if necessary. A sufficently designed fence along with more border guards will at least make it tougher to cross, and most likely will have a measurable effect on the number of people willing to cross.

Having said that, its true this doesn't deal with the demand for illegal immigrants, and an effective enforcement policy needs to crack down on businesses who are hiring illegal immigrants to be fully effective.

 

[randym431]

Well, I lived in So. CA. Where is an illegal going to go that walked across the border, having nothing to his/her name. Its the smugglers that are providing the transportation to places like IOwa, MN, etc.

I know one lady that had an illegal boyfriend. He was caught and sent back to mexico. She sent the family $1000 money order and he was back at her side the next weekend.

This fence idea is stupid, and a waste of resources. Let them build it, then scratch their heads when more illegals than ever get into the country.

I'm actually not anti illegal. If someone wants to come here and try for a better life, why not. Just make a legit path for them to do it legally. Unless you're an American Indian... oh well.

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: randym431
Well, I lived in So. CA. Where is an illegal going to go that walked across the border, having nothing to his/her name. Its the smugglers that are providing the transportation to places like IOwa, MN, etc.

I know one lady that had an illegal boyfriend. He was caught and sent back to mexico. She sent the family $1000 money order and he was back at her side the next weekend.

This fence idea is stupid, and a waste of resources. Let them build it, then scratch their heads when more illegals than ever get into the country.

Look, the point is that the smugglers have to take the immigrants across the border by foot or simular methods before they can drive them anywhere. The tougher this gets for the smugglers to manage, the more likely everyone gets caught. If the immigrant smugglers get caught, they can end up looking at some significant jail time. If the costs of smuggling someone across goes up to $2000 dollars and there is a chance they will all get caught anyways, that will at least have an impact on those thinking about crossing from Mexico. Combine that with making it tougher to find a job as a illegal in the US at all, and this can have a major impact.

I don't have a problem with the idea people immigrating to the US, I simply feel the current level of illegal immigration has gotten to the point its harming the quality of life of everyone living here in the long term through the consequences of overcrowding in particular.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The fence was a way to avoid the simple solution of arresting anybody who hires an illegal. The real solution will be avoided at all cost.

You see moonbeam, people want to avoid fixing the problem. If you fix the problem, the kickbacks from the cheap labor lobbyists will dry up. At least this way they are wasting tax payer money to give the impression that you are doing something to "help" them. Of course some people will see this as a great start to the "solution".

I think they call these types of actions, smoke and mirrors?

 

[zendari]

Excellent start by the Bush administration.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The fence was a way to avoid the simple solution of arresting anybody who hires an illegal.

The real solution will be avoided at all cost.

They just did a story where the Florida Orange growers want to fly in thousands of South Americans because they said they can't get the oranges picked without $2.13 hr employees with no benefits.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: randym431
Well, I lived in So. CA. Where is an illegal going to go that walked across the border, having nothing to his/her name. Its the smugglers that are providing the transportation to places like IOwa, MN, etc.

I know one lady that had an illegal boyfriend. He was caught and sent back to mexico. She sent the family $1000 money order and he was back at her side the next weekend.

This fence idea is stupid, and a waste of resources. Let them build it, then scratch their heads when more illegals than ever get into the country.

Look, the point is that the smugglers have to take the immigrants across the border by foot or simular methods before they can drive them anywhere. The tougher this gets for the smugglers to manage, the more likely everyone gets caught. If the immigrant smugglers get caught, they can end up looking at some significant jail time. If the costs of smuggling someone across goes up to $2000 dollars and there is a chance they will all get caught anyways, that will at least have an impact on those thinking about crossing from Mexico. Combine that with making it tougher to find a job as a illegal in the US at all, and this can have a major impact.

I don't have a problem with the idea people immigrating to the US, I simply feel the current level of illegal immigration has gotten to the point its harming the quality of life of everyone living here in the long term through the consequences of overcrowding in particular.

If you have no problem with the idea of people immigrating to the United States, don't you think it makes more sense to ease the process of Legal Immigration?

People are coming in to this country to work...let's not criminalize the act of seeking a better life.

The point I want to make is that peoplle will come here, wall or no wall: it's like trying to stop the ocean's tide: an excercise in futility.

 

[umbrella39]

What a joke, fence != solve the problem. The ringmaster and his clown supporters are out in full force today, big shock. :roll:

 

[Todd33]

A fence? A $2B symbolic measure to appease the sheeple for the election? Anyone think they will not just go under, around, over it?

Maybe Haliburton will do the work - "lose" $2B, charge $4B and be two years late

 

[savvy]

Interesting.

 

[CHOPPER GOD]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The fence was a way to avoid the simple solution of arresting anybody who hires an illegal. The real solution will be avoided at all cost.

Once again moonbeam..you have NAILED IT....If US 'Really' cared about illegals...there would be punishment/consiquence to those that employing them...(Like that Governor in Pennsylvania passed a few weeks ago for his small town)

Its a double standard to say you are Illegal...yet have have government sponsered health clinics that cater to them (which My friend works at) It seriously is set up for them..100% all spanish clients....hardley any english...bogus names....they can't even agree on what birthday to use. My girlfriend asks them what thier birthday is and sometimes, they haven't thought that far ahead...
They do end up with treatment at very low cost and Iactually don't have a problem with that.....It's the American double Standard at its finest.....
"DONT SNEAK IN...DONT DO IT....but if ya DO make it....Heres where to live heres where to work...here's where to get medical attention"

I live in Arizona

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: feralkid
The point I want to make is that peoplle will come here, wall or no wall: it's like trying to stop the ocean's tide: an excercise in futility.

The reality is if the political will is here, you could actually virtually stop additional illegal immigration . Combine a fence with a much better system of determining who is illegal and make it clear that any employer who knowing hires an illegal alien will do significant jail time, and things change dramatically. If people not only pay a large smuggler fee, but simply can't find find a job period once they get to the US, they are likely in most cases to give up eventually and go home. You might even see some turning themselves in to the INS at that point since it could be the easiest way to gett home. Word would get around in Mexico and other foreign countries about the new economic realities in the US as well.

 

[TGS]

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: feralkid
The point I want to make is that peoplle will come here, wall or no wall: it's like trying to stop the ocean's tide: an excercise in futility.

The reality is if the political will is here, you could actually virtually stop additional illegal immigration . Combine a fence with a much better system of determining who is illegal and make it clear that any employer who knowing hires an illegal alien will do significant jail time, and things change dramatically. If people not only pay a large smuggler fee, but simply can't find find a job period once they get to the US, they are likely in most cases to give up eventually and go home. You might even see some turning themselves in to the INS at that point since it could be the easiest way to gett home. Word would get around in Mexico and other foreign countries about the new economic realities in the US as well.

The real shame is squandering away tax payer dollars, in order to attempt to prevent illegals being hired by US employers. The employers are only trying to pad their bottom lines with cheap labor. This cost is pushed onto the consumers through the social costs of supporting these people. If one wanted to deter illegals from seeing this as a place where they can easily get a job, you most definately have to address the source of the problem.

The sad fact is there is too much money is changing hands to fight this problem. There will be a need for money to fund ridiculous projects like a fence, law enforcement personnel, prisons, etc... to allow the problem to be fixed.

Honestly if you believe this is a "good start" think about why this fence would be constructed. Realize that you the tax payer are paying for a fence, which the sole purpose of is to prevent immigrants from from gaining *illegal untaxed or substandard wage* employement. The person providing this employement is a fellow American. So they are commiting crimes that *YOU* must pay for using your tax dollars. How does that make *any* sense at all?

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: TGS
Honestly if you believe this is a "good start" think about why this fence would be constructed. Realize that you the tax payer are paying for a fence, which the sole purpose of is to prevent immigrants from from gaining *illegal untaxed or substandard wage* employement. The person providing this employement is a fellow American. So they are commiting crimes that *YOU* must pay for using your tax dollars. How does that make *any* sense at all?

Note the significant jail time aspect to what I advocate. I'm talking about those hiring illegal immigrants getting years in pound me in the ass prison time if they go around still knowingly hiring illegal immigrants.

I also am a political realist and figure some on the right will pay more attention to the other elements of the problem once other elements of the border issue have been addressed. Furthermore the reality is with the prevalence of forged idenfications in the US that some employment of illegals will still occur. This means a combination of making it tougher to get into the US in the first place along with drying up the pool of available jobs somewhat is going to be needed to really reduce the illegal immigrant flow. Frankly I'm perfectly willing to pay the costs involved because I believe in the long run overcrowding will substancially reduce my quality of life if nothing is done about this issue.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: randym431
Are they nutz? THEY ARE NUTZ!

I'd guess, maybe .00001% of illegal?s come across by going over a fence or under a fence. 99.999999% come by planes, trucks, vans, rail, etc etc.
NOTHING is going to change just because a fence, electrified or greased, is put up.
WHAT A LOT OF BULL!!!

Why do you think illegal?s, working in the U.S., send all their $$$ right back across the border via money orders and checks? So their other family members can PAY the smugglers that (HEY) GET THEM HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE (via cars, vans, planes, rail, etc etc).

Smuggling illegal?s is B.I.G. business. You can get ANYONE illegal over into this country for about $1000.

No fence is going to stop that!!!

I'm pretty sure most illegals skip across the border along the non-fenced/undefended parts...

I used to make the same assumption. You are wrong, just like I was. Actually the biggest share (by far) of illegals come to the US via a legal Visa: a tourist visa they then let expire. The second biggest share come inside vans and trucks crossing in Tijuana.
Most mexicans I talked to replyed "are you nuts? you could die!" when asked about the way they felt on crossing the border in the undefended desert.

Fences and Walls never solved any problem, and history from ancient Rome, to the Berlin wall, the great Chinese Wall to the brand new Israeli one is pretty clear on this point....

 

[jfall]

they'll get illegal mexicans to build it

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: randym431
I'd guess, maybe .00001% of illegal?s come across by going over a fence or under a fence. 99.999999% come by planes, trucks, vans, rail, etc etc.

This is simply very wrong. As far as illegals from places other than Mexico, some do initially come in on valid tourist or academic visas and the like before overstaying thier visas and remaining the US. As far as Mexico is concerned the overwhelming porportion of the immigrants get across the border on foot, generally on the poorly guarded parts of the border without any real fence. You might have the rare person who has good enough counterfeit documents to get across in a more blatant manner, but the reality is those trying to actually drive across the border generally get caught, with the car likely seized which is another deterent from trying that. The reality is that without very good identification that someone is a US citizen, or the right sort of documentation to allow someone legal entry into the US, (its not that easy for the average Mexican citizen to get this) you're not getting into the US by plane. This is especially true since the airlines are actually required by law to immediately send anyone caught trying to get into the US by plane back to their original destination, at the airliner's expense if necessary. A sufficently designed fence along with more border guards will at least make it tougher to cross, and most likely will have a measurable effect on the number of people willing to cross.

Having said that, its true this doesn't deal with the demand for illegal immigrants, and an effective enforcement policy needs to crack down on businesses who are hiring illegal immigrants to be fully effective.

Yes, but don't we have to deal with one before we deal with the other? Thats what Randym431 here doesn't get. First, we seal off the border, THEN we start making arrests. Otherwise, more are pouring in while you're trying to arrest thousands of business owners and 11 million illegals (which takes some time, I imagine), and in the end you're just stuck with another expensive but endless "War on Drugs".

Stop the flow first. Then patch the dam. No offense Randy, but thats how it works.

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: Tango

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: randym431
Are they nutz? THEY ARE NUTZ!

I'd guess, maybe .00001% of illegal?s come across by going over a fence or under a fence. 99.999999% come by planes, trucks, vans, rail, etc etc.
NOTHING is going to change just because a fence, electrified or greased, is put up.
WHAT A LOT OF BULL!!!

Why do you think illegal?s, working in the U.S., send all their $$$ right back across the border via money orders and checks? So their other family members can PAY the smugglers that (HEY) GET THEM HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE (via cars, vans, planes, rail, etc etc).

Smuggling illegal?s is B.I.G. business. You can get ANYONE illegal over into this country for about $1000.

No fence is going to stop that!!!

I'm pretty sure most illegals skip across the border along the non-fenced/undefended parts...

I used to make the same assumption. You are wrong, just like I was. Actually the biggest share (by far) of illegals come to the US via a legal Visa: a tourist visa they then let expire. The second biggest share come inside vans and trucks crossing in Tijuana.
Most mexicans I talked to replyed "are you nuts? you could die!" when asked about the way they felt on crossing the border in the undefended desert.

Fences and Walls never solved any problem, and history from ancient Rome, to the Berlin wall, the great Chinese Wall to the brand new Israeli one is pretty clear on this point....

No its not, people just like repeating that tired old myth.

1. The Israeli border wall reduced terrorist attacks from Palestine by up to 90% in areas where the wall is complete. Go look up the numbers; you might find lower, but its still working. Didn't you notice a huge decrease in the number of news stories about terrorist attacks within Israel in the last 2 years? Hamas had to take the time to dig UNDER the Gaza barrier, go over in a small party, and get out fast with their captive. Simply put - no more mass infiltrations, and 3 lost soldiers on the border vs. 1000s of dead civilians in the heart of your largest cities. That's DEFINITELY progress.

2. Correct me if I'm wrong (my Chinese history is a bit rusty), but didn't the Great Wall of China pretty much work until Genghis Khan (who could've taken just about anything)? He was repulsed, until he slipped through some deserted pass or already-crumbled section or something and outflanked it. Am I right? If so, it failed because he went AROUND it...so it just wasn't long enough. The second big failure was because a Chinese general opened the gates and allowed the Manchurians to pass through. Keep the gate closed.

3. Hadrian's Wall worked for 300 years until it was voluntarily abandoned by the Romans.

4. The Berlin Wall worked for 30 years, and was only torn down by a mass rising of the populace, which was only possible because of the contemporary political situation (had they tried it in the late 60s, they'd have been massacred). Before it was built, Easterners were streaming West in droves; after, only a few thousand successfully made it across in the next 30 years. Right now, I'd gladly take a 30 year ceasefire between Israel and the apes of Hezbollah and Hamas. So Israel should build a wall on their northern border as well.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

Originally posted by: Tango

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: randym431
Are they nutz? THEY ARE NUTZ!

I'd guess, maybe .00001% of illegal?s come across by going over a fence or under a fence. 99.999999% come by planes, trucks, vans, rail, etc etc.
NOTHING is going to change just because a fence, electrified or greased, is put up.
WHAT A LOT OF BULL!!!

Why do you think illegal?s, working in the U.S., send all their $$$ right back across the border via money orders and checks? So their other family members can PAY the smugglers that (HEY) GET THEM HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE (via cars, vans, planes, rail, etc etc).

Smuggling illegal?s is B.I.G. business. You can get ANYONE illegal over into this country for about $1000.

No fence is going to stop that!!!

I'm pretty sure most illegals skip across the border along the non-fenced/undefended parts...

I used to make the same assumption. You are wrong, just like I was. Actually the biggest share (by far) of illegals come to the US via a legal Visa: a tourist visa they then let expire. The second biggest share come inside vans and trucks crossing in Tijuana.
Most mexicans I talked to replyed "are you nuts? you could die!" when asked about the way they felt on crossing the border in the undefended desert.

Fences and Walls never solved any problem, and history from ancient Rome, to the Berlin wall, the great Chinese Wall to the brand new Israeli one is pretty clear on this point....

No its not, people just like repeating that tired old myth.

1. The Israeli border wall reduced terrorist attacks from Palestine by up to 90% in areas where the wall is complete. Go look up the numbers; you might find lower, but its still working. Didn't you notice a huge decrease in the number of news stories about terrorist attacks within Israel in the last 2 years? Hamas had to take the time to dig UNDER the Gaza barrier, go over in a small party, and get out fast with their captive. Simply put - no more mass infiltrations, and 3 lost soldiers on the border vs. 1000s of dead civilians in the heart of your largest cities. That's DEFINITELY progress.

2. Correct me if I'm wrong (my Chinese history is a bit rusty), but didn't the Great Wall of China pretty much work until Genghis Khan (who could've taken just about anything)? He was repulsed, until he slipped through some deserted pass or already-crumbled section or something and outflanked it. Am I right? If so, it failed because he went AROUND it...so it just wasn't long enough. The second big failure was because a Chinese general opened the gates and allowed the Manchurians to pass through. Keep the gate closed.

3. Hadrian's Wall worked for 300 years until it was voluntarily abandoned by the Romans.

4. The Berlin Wall worked for 30 years, and was only torn down by a mass rising of the populace, which was only possible because of the contemporary political situation (had they tried it in the late 60s, they'd have been massacred). Before it was built, Easterners were streaming West in droves; after, only a few thousand successfully made it across in the next 30 years. Right now, I'd gladly take a 30 year ceasefire between Israel and the apes of Hezbollah and Hamas. So Israel should build a wall on their northern border as well.

My point was walls and fences were always built to try to stop history. Eventually they exacerbated the problem they were trying to solve. The Berlin wall tried to keep separeted people that felt part of the same national heritage. It became a symbol of everything that was wrong in the cold war world, and symbols have great power in politics. It gave the illusion to East Germany burocrats that history could be stopped, instead in the long term it became the focus of attention for people around the world thus awakening a lot of political and philosophical energies devoted to the very dream of destroying it. In the middle ages a general from Florence wrote "if you build a fortress, somebody will come to siege it"

Same is true for the great chinese wall and the roman Valli. They gave the illusion to stand against a process that could not be stopped. And when they crumbled the fall was more painfull than it would have been if they were not build in the first place.

The Israeli wall might have given the brief illusion that peace could be won by building a fortress. Look at what is happening now. The wall increased inequalities for palestinians, made their life hell, built their frustration and became a symbol of the will of Israel not to integrate the palestinians in the social fabric of the country. It also impaired contacts between the two cultures, so instead of trying to understand each other, they became even more distant.

Peace will be achieved with justice, not with walls.