Senator Asks Microsoft to Prioritize American Workers Over H1B Visa Holders in Its Layoff

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,413
616
126
this senator has a very valid point. Hire Americans FIRST.


http://technologyexpert.blogsp...oft-to-prioritize.html


Microsoft laid off 1,400 people on Thursday, but 3,600 are still to come. And, as Microsoft moves forward with these cuts, U.S. Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) told the company this week that U.S. citizens should receive priority over H-1B visa holders.

Grassley has long been a critic of the H1B program, while at the same time, Microsoft, among other tech companies, has wanted the program expanded.

Grassley reminds us in a statement on his website just what the program is meant to do (emphasis mine):

The purpose of the h-1b program is to help companies hire foreign guest workers on a temporary basis when there is not a sufficient qualified American workforce to meet those needs. However, the program is not intended to replace qualified American workers.

Excepts from a letter from Grassley to Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer (emphasis mine):

I am concerned that Microsoft will be retaining foreign guest workers rather than similarly qualified American employees when it implements its layoff plan. As you know, I want to make sure employers recruit qualified American workers first before hiring foreign guest workers. For example, I cosponsored legislation to overhaul the H-1B and L-1 visa programs to give priority to American workers and to crack down on unscrupulous employers who deprive qualified Americans of high-skilled jobs.Fraud and abuse is rampant in these programs, and we need more transparency to protect the integrity of our immigration system. I also support legislation that would strengthen educational opportunities for American students and workers so that Americans can compete successfully in this global economy.

...

It is imperative that in implementing its layoff plan, Microsoft ensures that American workers have priority in keeping their jobs over foreign workers on visa programs.

...

My point is that during a layoff, companies should not be retaining H-1B or other work visa program employees over qualified American workers. Our immigration policy is not intended to harm the American workforce.

It would be difficult to look at the huge numbers of American workers in the tech industry being laid off that there is actually a severe need for imported workers, yet companies still lobby for an expansion of the program. In terms of layoffs, this week alone, the following tech companies easily come to mind: Microsoft, Ericsson, Bose, Digg, Intel, SEGA, and Clear Channel Radio.

Why do companies want an expansion of the H1B program? For many the answer is obvious: (relatively) inexpensive labor in comparison to U.S. workers.

It is unclear what the Obama administration plans to do with regards to the H1B visa program.
 
Nov 7, 2000
16,404
3
81
by forcing microsoft to possibly keep inferior employees they cause the company and consequently its american employees, stockholders and customers harm

every little bit of intervention has long reaching effects

govt needs to STFU out of business
 

tenthumbs

Senior member
Oct 18, 2005
315
2
81
"It is imperative that in implementing its layoff plan, Microsoft ensures that American workers have priority in keeping their jobs over foreign workers on visa programs."


If the company isn't worse off because of this, I completely agree.
 

NuroMancer

Golden Member
Nov 8, 2004
1,684
1
76
Is this not basically discrimination just at a different level?

I personally think its BS, but maybe that's just me.
 

txrandom

Diamond Member
Aug 15, 2004
3,773
0
71
How about we stop hiring illegal immigrants and then we can worry about skilled, intelligent, and motivated foreigners moving into America. A brain drain from the rest of the world into America isn't a bad thing.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,921
14
81
Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
by forcing microsoft to possibly keep inferior employees they cause the company and consequently its american employees, stockholders and customers harm

every little bit of intervention has long reaching effects

govt needs to STFU out of business

This. The more brains we drain from overseas, the better off we are. If we turn away H1-B candidates, we are lowering the quality of our workforce and raising the quality of our economic competitors, all in the name of protecting someone who can't do their job as well as someone who went to elementary school in a one room schoolhouse.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
Originally posted by: Citrix
Microsoft laid off 1,400 people on Thursday, but 3,600 are still to come. And, as Microsoft moves forward with these cuts, U.S. Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) told the company this week that U.S. citizens should receive priority over H-1B visa holders.
Absolutely! U.S. citizens cost more anyway, we'll gladly give them priority layoffs!:evil:
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
0
0
These are the rallying points that politicians love because who could disagree? On the surface, they sound so reasonable. However, this is an absolutely pointless issue.

If Americans were in fact more qualified than Visa holders, no company would be laying them off first. So, either companies like Microsoft are not operating logically, or Americans are being laid off for a reason (i.e., they are not the most qualified). Interfering would ultimately cause more harm than good.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,924
45
91
I agree with the senator. The H-1B program is abused to get cheaper labor, not better labor. If we have enough qualified Americans to do the job (and we have more than enough right now) we should be employing them first. Bringing foreigners here to do those jobs while Americans are out of work means the government is indirectly subsidizing those jobs with the unemployment benefits it's paying. WHY should our government pay money so foreign citizens can come here and work? :roll:

The idea that the Americans who are being laid off were unqualified (or less qualified) is bunk. They were qualified to work at Microsoft before, and to make the salary they were making before. They make more money than the H-1B workers, so they get the axe.
 

torpid

Lifer
Sep 14, 2003
11,631
11
76
They laid off everyone working less than 15 months there. That seems reasonable enough to me. Should they lay off people who have been working there longer just because they are H1B workers? Makes no sense...
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,924
45
91
Originally posted by: daniel1113
These are the rallying points that politicians love because who could disagree? On the surface, they sound so reasonable. However, this is an absolutely pointless issue.

If Americans were in fact more qualified than Visa holders, no company would be laying them off first. So, either companies like Microsoft are not operating logically, or Americans are being laid off for a reason (i.e., they are not the most qualified). Interfering would ultimately cause more harm than good.

:laugh: Have you ever worked at a company that did layoffs? My former employer did two rounds of layoffs last year. Almost invariably the people who were laid off were the most experienced (and thus most expensive) workers. This was at a publicly traded Fortune 500 company. They don't think like we do.
 

AreaCode7O7

Senior member
Mar 6, 2005
931
1
0
A few points about H1-B candidates.
1. They do not get paid less than their American counterparts. These are in-demand employees with needed skills; companies compete for them.
2. It is cheaper to hire an American at equal pay. H1-Bs require immigration specialists paid for by the company, immigration fees and other costs, flights, relocation, etc.
3. The skills an H1-B candidate brings are not easy to get and very few Americans have them. Have any of you ever spent 8-12 months trying to find a qualified with ABAP programmer with a particular set of specialties? We're not talking about standard software devs with 1-3 years of experience here; we're talking about jobs requiring skills that sometimes only 50-100 people in the world may have.
4. Employers are REQUIRED to post jobs and interview all potential qualified American candidates before they qualify for an H1-B candidate, and they do this assiduously. If there are qualified Americans for these jobs, they get them. That's a huge part of the H1-B program.

H1-B employees are not stealing American jobs; we're not talking illegal immigrants undercutting Americans through cheap labor here. If we want Americans in these jobs we need to put schools together that compete with IIT and get kids motivated to learn these technologies better than their overseas counterparts.
 

AreaCode7O7

Senior member
Mar 6, 2005
931
1
0
Originally posted by: mugs
I agree with the senator. The H-1B program is abused to get cheaper labor, not better labor. If we have enough qualified Americans to do the job (and we have more than enough right now) we should be employing them first. Bringing foreigners here to do those jobs while Americans are out of work means the government is indirectly subsidizing those jobs with the unemployment benefits it's paying. WHY should our government pay money so foreign citizens can come here and work? :roll:

The idea that the Americans who are being laid off were unqualified (or less qualified) is bunk. They were qualified to work at Microsoft before, and to make the salary they were making before. They make more money than the H-1B workers, so they get the axe.

Do you even know who got laid off at MS? Much of it was temp labor and nearly all of it was in operational capacities that don't employ H1-B workers anyway. H1-Bs work in IT, not HR. This is just a publicity stunt for this senator. He's comparing apples and oranges.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,924
45
91
Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Originally posted by: mugs
I agree with the senator. The H-1B program is abused to get cheaper labor, not better labor. If we have enough qualified Americans to do the job (and we have more than enough right now) we should be employing them first. Bringing foreigners here to do those jobs while Americans are out of work means the government is indirectly subsidizing those jobs with the unemployment benefits it's paying. WHY should our government pay money so foreign citizens can come here and work? :roll:

The idea that the Americans who are being laid off were unqualified (or less qualified) is bunk. They were qualified to work at Microsoft before, and to make the salary they were making before. They make more money than the H-1B workers, so they get the axe.

Do you even know who got laid off at MS? Much of it was temp labor and nearly all of it was in operational capacities that don't employ H1-B workers anyway. H1-Bs work in IT, not HR. This is just a publicity stunt for this senator. He's comparing apples and oranges.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource...ft/archives/160076.asp
The company said that jobs would be eliminated in research and development, marketing, sales, finance, legal, human resources, and IT.
 

Joemonkey

Diamond Member
Mar 3, 2001
8,862
2
0
Originally posted by: AreaCode707
A few points about H1-B candidates.
1. They do not get paid less than their American counterparts. These are in-demand employees with needed skills; companies compete for them.
2. It is cheaper to hire an American at equal pay. H1-Bs require immigration specialists paid for by the company, immigration fees and other costs, flights, relocation, etc.
3. The skills an H1-B candidate brings are not easy to get and very few Americans have them. Have any of you ever spent 8-12 months trying to find a qualified with ABAP programmer with a particular set of specialties? We're not talking about standard software devs with 1-3 years of experience here; we're talking about jobs requiring skills that sometimes only 50-100 people in the world may have.
4. Employers are REQUIRED to post jobs and interview all potential qualified American candidates before they qualify for an H1-B candidate, and they do this assiduously. If there are qualified Americans for these jobs, they get them. That's a huge part of the H1-B program.

H1-B employees are not stealing American jobs; we're not talking illegal immigrants undercutting Americans through cheap labor here. If we want Americans in these jobs we need to put schools together that compete with IIT and get kids motivated to learn these technologies better than their overseas counterparts.

but don't they also post ridiculous requirements that lean towards an H1-B visa candidate, such as fluent in 3 languages + english?
 

Descartes

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
13,968
2
0
Originally posted by: Joemonkey
Originally posted by: AreaCode707
A few points about H1-B candidates.
1. They do not get paid less than their American counterparts. These are in-demand employees with needed skills; companies compete for them.
2. It is cheaper to hire an American at equal pay. H1-Bs require immigration specialists paid for by the company, immigration fees and other costs, flights, relocation, etc.
3. The skills an H1-B candidate brings are not easy to get and very few Americans have them. Have any of you ever spent 8-12 months trying to find a qualified with ABAP programmer with a particular set of specialties? We're not talking about standard software devs with 1-3 years of experience here; we're talking about jobs requiring skills that sometimes only 50-100 people in the world may have.
4. Employers are REQUIRED to post jobs and interview all potential qualified American candidates before they qualify for an H1-B candidate, and they do this assiduously. If there are qualified Americans for these jobs, they get them. That's a huge part of the H1-B program.

H1-B employees are not stealing American jobs; we're not talking illegal immigrants undercutting Americans through cheap labor here. If we want Americans in these jobs we need to put schools together that compete with IIT and get kids motivated to learn these technologies better than their overseas counterparts.

but don't they also post ridiculous requirements that lean towards an H1-B visa candidate, such as fluent in 3 languages + english?

No.
 

Descartes

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
13,968
2
0
Originally posted by: daniel1113
These are the rallying points that politicians love because who could disagree? On the surface, they sound so reasonable. However, this is an absolutely pointless issue.

If Americans were in fact more qualified than Visa holders, no company would be laying them off first. So, either companies like Microsoft are not operating logically, or Americans are being laid off for a reason (i.e., they are not the most qualified). Interfering would ultimately cause more harm than good.

That's a very naive expectation of businesses, unfortunately. Like most everything in the world, you would think that would make the most sense; unfortunately, when the issue is whether or not you're going to be solvent next month, the response is to survive and cut costs rather than preserve essential workers.

In my experience, the problem is that most people that get laid off somehow thought they were essential to the business. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I'm going nowhere because they can't function with me" type of responses only to find that person laid off.
 

Descartes

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
13,968
2
0
Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Originally posted by: mugs
I agree with the senator. The H-1B program is abused to get cheaper labor, not better labor. If we have enough qualified Americans to do the job (and we have more than enough right now) we should be employing them first. Bringing foreigners here to do those jobs while Americans are out of work means the government is indirectly subsidizing those jobs with the unemployment benefits it's paying. WHY should our government pay money so foreign citizens can come here and work? :roll:

The idea that the Americans who are being laid off were unqualified (or less qualified) is bunk. They were qualified to work at Microsoft before, and to make the salary they were making before. They make more money than the H-1B workers, so they get the axe.

Do you even know who got laid off at MS? Much of it was temp labor and nearly all of it was in operational capacities that don't employ H1-B workers anyway. H1-Bs work in IT, not HR. This is just a publicity stunt for this senator. He's comparing apples and oranges.

QFT. Sounds like someone with a working understanding of H1Bs and the industry in general.

I know it's popular to vilify H1Bs though...
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81
Originally posted by: torpid
They laid off everyone working less than 15 months there. That seems reasonable enough to me. Should they lay off people who have been working there longer just because they are H1B workers? Makes no sense...

That is not true.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
30,215
11
81
Anyway, it isn't a cut and dry case. If there were a case where they were laying off a citizen who had equal skills to an H1-B holder that they kept, then yes...I feel that violates the purpose fo the H1-B program. Its not a backdoor to get around the green card, its to provide the company with necessary talent it can't get otherwise. However, the situation generally isn't that simple.
 

jagec

Lifer
Apr 30, 2004
24,442
6
81
Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Do you even know who got laid off at MS? Much of it was temp labor and nearly all of it was in operational capacities that don't employ H1-B workers anyway. H1-Bs work in IT, not HR. This is just a publicity stunt for this senator. He's comparing apples and oranges.

While I agree with the gist of your post, for quite a while the Microsoft definition of "temp labor" was a little screwy.
 

AreaCode7O7

Senior member
Mar 6, 2005
931
1
0
Originally posted by: jagec
Originally posted by: AreaCode707
Do you even know who got laid off at MS? Much of it was temp labor and nearly all of it was in operational capacities that don't employ H1-B workers anyway. H1-Bs work in IT, not HR. This is just a publicity stunt for this senator. He's comparing apples and oranges.

While I agree with the gist of your post, for quite a while the Microsoft definition of "temp labor" was a little screwy.

Indeed, that is very true. But since losing that co-employment lawsuit MS (and every other major Seattle-area company) has been very VERY careful with temp labor, very deliberately using enforced time away from work and other differentiating factors to make sure they don't risk that type of issue again. These layoffs are hitting the Kelly Services, Spherion, PACE employees hard.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |