Senator Asks Microsoft to Prioritize American Workers Over H1B Visa Holders in Its Layoff

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: mugs
I agree with the senator. The H-1B program is abused to get cheaper labor, not better labor. If we have enough qualified Americans to do the job (and we have more than enough right now) we should be employing them first. Bringing foreigners here to do those jobs while Americans are out of work means the government is indirectly subsidizing those jobs with the unemployment benefits it's paying. WHY should our government pay money so foreign citizens can come here and work? :roll:

The idea that the Americans who are being laid off were unqualified (or less qualified) is bunk. They were qualified to work at Microsoft before, and to make the salary they were making before. They make more money than the H-1B workers, so they get the axe.

Do you even know who got laid off at MS? Much of it was temp labor and nearly all of it was in operational capacities that don't employ H1-B workers anyway. H1-Bs work in IT, not HR. This is just a publicity stunt for this senator. He's comparing apples and oranges.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource...ft/archives/160076.asp

The company said that jobs would be eliminated in research and development, marketing, sales, finance, legal, human resources, and IT.

IT = help desk and other support capacity in this case. R&D is on their more fanciful set of projects, not their core products where they brought in H1-Bs for specialty skills. I've got probably two dozen MS contacts, mostly in HR, that I've been in touch with since the news came out. The layoffs aren't hitting in areas where many H1-Bs are working or affecting jobs where the H1-Bs have comparable skills to the Americans, so the senator's admirable call is meaningless.

 

[silverpig]

So much for the free market.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Grassley must be a socialist. Or at least, when it suites him. Let's fire those nasty foreign people that take our jerbs. Don't worry about their work record and...just fire them because they're foreign.

Kind of like the US Govt. Let's spend years mocking European socialism but once the economy tanks prop up private companies with massive amounts of tax payer money.

And people wonder why the the US is losing respect.

Is the US socialist or not?

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: silverpig
So much for the free market.

Free market. Where?

 

[dbk]

can you really force them to do that?

 

[alkemyst]

IMHO there is not a lot of place in our country right now for H1B...my wife was one so I don't really say this lightly.

If qualified americans are out of work, we should not be importing labor.

 

[DamienK9]

Senator is absolutely, 100% correct.

 

[WingZero94]

Totally agree with the Senator. American workers before H1-B workers. /thread

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
Grassley must be a socialist. Or at least, when it suites him. Let's fire those nasty foreign people that take our jerbs. Don't worry about their work record and...just fire them because they're foreign.

Kind of like the US Govt. Let's spend years mocking European socialism but once the economy tanks prop up private companies with massive amounts of tax payer money.

And people wonder why the the US is losing respect.

Is the US socialist or not?

One has to first understand the purpose of H1B and look at this realistically and not emotionally.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: silverpig
So much for the free market.

Free market. Where?

My point exactly. Too often the same people who laud the free market when it works in their favour are the quickest to criticize when American companies/workers start losing out because of it.

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Citrix
Microsoft laid off 1,400 people on Thursday, but 3,600 are still to come. And, as Microsoft moves forward with these cuts, U.S. Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) told the company this week that U.S. citizens should receive priority over H-1B visa holders.

Absolutely! U.S. citizens cost more anyway, we'll gladly give them priority layoffs!:evil:

Funny, when I read the op that's the first thing that came to mind.

 

[KingGheedora]

I see no problem with this. If they don't want to hire American workers they should open an office overseas. If that hurts the American economy then that just means American capitalism sucks.

 

[alkemyst]

The biggest misconception of H1B is it's for cheaper labor. The purpose of H1B is to fill vacant slots at the same pay rate as an american worker when there isn't an american worker to fill that vacancy.

 

[geno]

For MS and it's shareholders, this would be awful. For the economy, this would be good. But you know what? It's not up to MS to save the economy and this country has never really laid responsibility of the economy's health on employers. What about the big three building most of their vehicles in Mexico and Canada? Skip this hassle and give the big companies reasons to not outsource / offshore.

 

[edro]

Hell Yeah!

And we should force people to buy American Cars as well!

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: geno
For MS and it's shareholders, this would be awful. For the economy, this would be good. But you know what? It's not up to MS to save the economy and this country has never really laid responsibility of the economy's health on employers. What about the big three building most of their vehicles in Mexico and Canada? Skip this hassle and give the big companies reasons to not outsource / offshore.

affirmative action? that's not the issue.

 

[ViviTheMage]

at this point in our recession, I agree.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: alkemyst
The biggest misconception of H1B is it's for cheaper labor. The purpose of H1B is to fill vacant slots at the same pay rate as an american worker when there isn't an american worker to fill that vacancy.

The problem is H1Bs make less then the american workers doing to same job on average. Companys use the "we can't find people..." as a reason to get more H1Bs. Now that they need less people these companies should put their money where their mouth is. If it is not about money then keep americans and cut the H1Bs.


"Immigrant engineers with H-1B visas may be earning up to 23 percent less on average than American engineers with similar jobs, according to documents filed with the U.S. Department of Labor."

 

[Xavier434]

The entire point of bringing in foreigners on H-1B visas was because we couldn't find Americans to fulfill the roles of the positions. If there are Americans available to take the jobs then they should get the jobs.


This is basically what companies do. It is a fucking scam.

If you hire H-1Bs in the US you will most likely pay them less. However, you must do some work to qualify for the need to hire an H-1B by proving that you cannot find qualified citizens to do the job. The problem here is a case of corporate corruption. They want that lower payroll and they know they need to prove that they cannot get qualified citizens so the first step is to take a look at the requirements and average pay for the vacant position. They gather a realistic list of those reqs and they get a good idea of how much that position is paying. Next, they go out and list that position on websites like CareerBuilder and Craig's List. However, they toss in a bunch of reqs that are tremendously higher than what the actual position requires. They also tend to advertise paying less than average for that position in the listings. Obviously, that turns a lot of people off because so few people qualify for the job and those that do can easily get another position elsewhere that pays a heck of a lot more. Thus, the position remains vacant and most people who are interviewed do not get hired because, according to the company, that person was not qualified. After enough time passes, the company has gathered enough historical data to "prove" that there just are not enough qualified people out there so they need to hire an H-1B. Now they got that H-1B and it is legal. They get the smaller payroll. And once again another American citizen was given the shaft in place of a foreigner all because of a shitty fucking loophole in the system.

I have worked for companies that do this sort of thing and saw it with my own eyes. It is disgusting. Those laws need to be amended heavily if not completely revoked and replaced and I am hoping Obama sees to it.

 

[Deviant Grasshopper]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
The entire point of bringing in foreigners on H-1B visas was because we couldn't find Americans to fulfill the roles of the positions. If there are Americans available to take the jobs then they should get the jobs.


This is basically what companies do. It is a fucking scam.

If you hire H-1Bs in the US you will most likely pay them less. However, you must do some work to qualify for the need to hire an H-1B by proving that you cannot find qualified citizens to do the job. The problem here is a case of corporate corruption. They want that lower payroll and they know they need to prove that they cannot get qualified citizens so the first step is to take a look at the requirements and average pay for the vacant position. They gather a realistic list of those reqs and they get a good idea of how much that position is paying. Next, they go out and list that position on websites like CareerBuilder and Craig's List. However, they toss in a bunch of reqs that are tremendously higher than what the actual position requires. They also tend to advertise paying less than average for that position in the listings. Obviously, that turns a lot of people off because so few people qualify for the job and those that do can easily get another position elsewhere that pays a heck of a lot more. Thus, the position remains vacant and most people who are interviewed do not get hired because, according to the company, that person was not qualified. After enough time passes, the company has gathered enough historical data to "prove" that there just are not enough qualified people out there so they need to hire an H-1B. Now they got that H-1B and it is legal. They get the smaller payroll. And once again another American citizen was given the shaft in place of a foreigner all because of a shitty fucking loophole in the system.

I have worked for companies that do this sort of thing and saw it with my own eyes. It is disgusting. Those laws need to be amended heavily if not completely revoked and replaced and I am hoping Obama sees to it.

I have also seen it, and it's ridiculous.

You guys that are proponents of this do not have a very good grasp of what is actually going on with the H-1B employees.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
A few points about H1-B candidates.
1. They do not get paid less than their American counterparts. These are in-demand employees with needed skills; companies compete for them.

This was my understanding as well. I thought H1B's were ranked and paid based strictly on their position within the company, which means they would be paid the exact same as an American in the same position.

 

[TruePaige]

H1-B Visa programs are one of the reasons the technology industry in America isn't surging. Send them back and let us take some of the burden off our economy even if it is just a tiny amount.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
A few points about H1-B candidates.
1. They do not get paid less than their American counterparts. These are in-demand employees with needed skills; companies compete for them.

This was my understanding as well. I thought H1B's were ranked and paid based strictly on their position within the company, which means they would be paid the exact same as an American in the same position.

Nope, they have the be paid a "prevailing wage". Take a guess who decides that.

H1Bs make less on average, some say as much as about 25% less.

That and if you are a H1B that rocks the boat. Then the company just contacts INS and says they are dropping you and INS takes care of the rest.

 

[zoiks]

Yup. I work in the silicon valley area which is pretty much full with H1B workers. The thing about H1B workers is that you could employ an engineer with say 5 years of experience while paying him/her a much lower salary. The only other time you pay lower salaries locally is when a candidate starts out fresh or has little experience. Microsoft and other companies play this victim game where they often state innovation and technology development is impeded by inhibiting them to acquire H1B foreign workers. Nothing could be farther from the truth. There are so many highly qualified people looking for jobs locally that it's not even funny anymore.
After attending a number of company quarterly meetings where numbers are presented, the graph typically shown always depicts that the major cash burn is primarily worker salaries.
Of course, MS wants to hire cheap labor. Not that I blame them for doing it but justifying it by misrepresenting the truth seems unethically furtive.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
A few points about H1-B candidates.
1. They do not get paid less than their American counterparts. These are in-demand employees with needed skills; companies compete for them.

This was my understanding as well. I thought H1B's were ranked and paid based strictly on their position within the company, which means they would be paid the exact same as an American in the same position.

Nope, they have the be paid a "prevailing wage". Take a guess who decides that.

H1Bs make less on average, some say as much as about 25% less.

That and if you are a H1B that rocks the boat. Then the company just contacts INS and says they are dropping you and INS takes care of the rest.

So you're saying that if one of my H1B coworkers has the exact same job title as me, there's a good chance that they are being paid 25%+ less for the same position?