Senator Asks Microsoft to Prioritize American Workers Over H1B Visa Holders in Its Layoff

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
A few points about H1-B candidates.
1. They do not get paid less than their American counterparts. These are in-demand employees with needed skills; companies compete for them.

This was my understanding as well. I thought H1B's were ranked and paid based strictly on their position within the company, which means they would be paid the exact same as an American in the same position.

Nope, they have the be paid a "prevailing wage". Take a guess who decides that.

H1Bs make less on average, some say as much as about 25% less.

That and if you are a H1B that rocks the boat. Then the company just contacts INS and says they are dropping you and INS takes care of the rest.

So you're saying that if one of my H1B coworkers has the exact same job title as me, there's a good chance that they are being paid 25%+ less for the same position?

Depends on the company. Some will pay maybe less and some maybe more. But on average they do make less. Its the big reason compaanies keep wanting more H1Bs. its all about the money.

 

[senseamp]

A lot of H1Bs are clock watchers who don't want to take any risks because they are afraid of losing their green card track.
They kill the risk taking culture that made places like Silicon Valley great, and after a while you just got companies living off the fat or slowly rotting.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Special K
So you're saying that if one of my H1B coworkers has the exact same job title as me, there's a good chance that they are being paid 25%+ less for the same position?

Yes, there is a chance. Why do you think so many employers go through the trouble of performing the scam I explained above? They don't do it because they think it is fun or because they hate Americans.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: torpid
They laid off everyone working less than 15 months there. That seems reasonable enough to me. Should they lay off people who have been working there longer just because they are H1B workers? Makes no sense...

That is not true.

That is what someone who works at microsoft told me. What's your source? I can see no information online explicitly spelling out who got laid off.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: torpid
They laid off everyone working less than 15 months there. That seems reasonable enough to me. Should they lay off people who have been working there longer just because they are H1B workers? Makes no sense...

That is not true.

That is what someone who works at microsoft told me. What's your source? I can see no information online explicitly spelling out who got laid off.

I also have a good friend working for Microsoft and what you are claiming is not true. In fact, he informed me about what was going on before it even hit the news.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: torpid
They laid off everyone working less than 15 months there. That seems reasonable enough to me. Should they lay off people who have been working there longer just because they are H1B workers? Makes no sense...

That is not true.

That is what someone who works at microsoft told me. What's your source? I can see no information online explicitly spelling out who got laid off.

I also have a good friend working for Microsoft and what you are claiming is not true. In fact, he informed me about what was going on before it even hit the news.

So who got laid off then?

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: torpid
They laid off everyone working less than 15 months there. That seems reasonable enough to me. Should they lay off people who have been working there longer just because they are H1B workers? Makes no sense...

That is not true.

That is what someone who works at microsoft told me. What's your source? I can see no information online explicitly spelling out who got laid off.

I also have a good friend working for Microsoft and what you are claiming is not true. In fact, he informed me about what was going on before it even hit the news.

So who got laid off then?

Mostly Americans who were being paid a decent amount and held positions in middle management. In addition, I believe a couple special projects teams were cut entirely. The amount of time you worked there had little to nothing to do with it though. For example, he has been there less than a year but his boss and his boss's boss got laid off and they have been there for years.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: torpid
They laid off everyone working less than 15 months there. That seems reasonable enough to me. Should they lay off people who have been working there longer just because they are H1B workers? Makes no sense...

That is not true.

That is what someone who works at microsoft told me. What's your source? I can see no information online explicitly spelling out who got laid off.

I also have a good friend working for Microsoft and what you are claiming is not true. In fact, he informed me about what was going on before it even hit the news.

So who got laid off then?

Mostly Americans who were being paid a decent amount and held positions in middle management. In addition, I believe a couple special projects teams were cut entirely. The amount of time you worked there had little to nothing to do with it though. For example, he has been there less than a year but his boss and his boss's boss got laid off and they have been there for years.

Well, maybe it was just my friend's department then, or he just made it up to scare me.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: torpid
They laid off everyone working less than 15 months there. That seems reasonable enough to me. Should they lay off people who have been working there longer just because they are H1B workers? Makes no sense...

That is not true.

That is what someone who works at microsoft told me. What's your source? I can see no information online explicitly spelling out who got laid off.

I also have a good friend working for Microsoft and what you are claiming is not true. In fact, he informed me about what was going on before it even hit the news.

So who got laid off then?

Mostly Americans who were being paid a decent amount and held positions in middle management. In addition, I believe a couple special projects teams were cut entirely. The amount of time you worked there had little to nothing to do with it though. For example, he has been there less than a year but his boss and his boss's boss got laid off and they have been there for years.

Well, maybe it was just my friend's department then, or he just made it up to scare me.

I have a friend who's been there about six months in an operational department and she's still there.

 

[Loop2kil]

Originally posted by: mugs
I agree with the senator. The H-1B program is abused to get cheaper labor, not better labor. If we have enough qualified Americans to do the job (and we have more than enough right now) we should be employing them first. Bringing foreigners here to do those jobs while Americans are out of work means the government is indirectly subsidizing those jobs with the unemployment benefits it's paying. WHY should our government pay money so foreign citizens can come here and work? :roll:

The idea that the Americans who are being laid off were unqualified (or less qualified) is bunk. They were qualified to work at Microsoft before, and to make the salary they were making before. They make more money than the H-1B workers, so they get the axe.

AbsolMutherEffinLootly

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: torpid
They laid off everyone working less than 15 months there. That seems reasonable enough to me. Should they lay off people who have been working there longer just because they are H1B workers? Makes no sense...

That is not true.

That is what someone who works at microsoft told me. What's your source? I can see no information online explicitly spelling out who got laid off.

I personally know about 10 people that just started at Microsoft this past summer, none of them were laid off.

 

[cheesehead]

Originally posted by: StinkyPinky

Is the US socialist or not?

At this rate, we're going to need our own Maggie Thatcher to bust the strikes at Midwest Leyland....

 

[bvalpati]

Originally posted by: silverpig
So much for the free market.

Pretty ironic to lament a lack market freedom in reference to Microsoft don't you think? Can you think of a more monopolized segment of the tech industry or a company that has fought harder or spent more than Microsoft to keep their monopoly in place?

There's a reason we don't have a free market, it doesn't work. It's every bit as naive to believe in self correcting market forces as it is to believe that any government can completely control the entire economy.

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: bvalpati

Originally posted by: silverpig
So much for the free market.

Pretty ironic to lament a lack market freedom in reference to Microsoft don't you think? Can you think of a more monopolized segment of the tech industry or a company that has fought harder or spent more than Microsoft to keep their monopoly in place?

There's a reason we don't have a free market, it doesn't work. It's every bit as naive to believe in self correcting market forces as it is to believe that any government can completely control the entire economy.

Aren't monopolies a consequence of a truly free market?

 

[hanoverphist]

Originally posted by: torpid
They laid off everyone working less than 15 months there. That seems reasonable enough to me. Should they lay off people who have been working there longer just because they are H1B workers? Makes no sense...

if you have an employee that excels at his job at 13 months employment and has a bright future ahead and has great potential, would you lay him off and keep the seasoned 10 yr employee that doesnt have a good history and not much potential left? there are exceptions to every rule, blanket layoffs based on seniority are crap, and potentially as bad for the company as laying off qualified H1B and keeping on under qualified americans.

 

[torpid]

OK, enough already. My friend was full of crap and I was wrong. What more do you people want from me? Don't make me hire a locksmith to prove my unworthiness.

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: torpid
OK, enough already. My friend was full of crap and I was wrong. What more do you people want from me? Don't make me hire a locksmith to prove my unworthiness.

lol. We're just helpfully providing data, not trying to troll you.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: hanoverphist

Originally posted by: torpid
They laid off everyone working less than 15 months there. That seems reasonable enough to me. Should they lay off people who have been working there longer just because they are H1B workers? Makes no sense...

if you have an employee that excels at his job at 13 months employment and has a bright future ahead and has great potential, would you lay him off and keep the seasoned 10 yr employee that doesnt have a good history and not much potential left? there are exceptions to every rule, blanket layoffs based on seniority are crap, and potentially as bad for the company as laying off qualified H1B and keeping on under qualified americans.

Not fighting with torpid here since things were cleared up already but I thought I would point out that in the case of most companies that are really large like MS the whole laying off based on quality thing doesn't always apply. What matters to them is mostly how much money they will save. Hence, the whole keeping around H-1B thing. Obviously they are not going to lay off key people, but I am willing to bet that they do not screen each and every employee either unlike mid sized and smaller companies. Hell, depending on the size of the layoff, they may not even thoroughly screen each and every special projects team as a whole either.

 

[tfcmasta97]

Originally posted by: tenthumbs
"It is imperative that in implementing its layoff plan, Microsoft ensures that American workers have priority in keeping their jobs over foreign workers on visa programs."


If the company isn't worse off because of this, I completely agree.

but microsoft is keeping their most effective employees. otherwise they'd just keep the americans. so they would be worse off

 

[AreaCode7O7]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: hanoverphist

Originally posted by: torpid
They laid off everyone working less than 15 months there. That seems reasonable enough to me. Should they lay off people who have been working there longer just because they are H1B workers? Makes no sense...

if you have an employee that excels at his job at 13 months employment and has a bright future ahead and has great potential, would you lay him off and keep the seasoned 10 yr employee that doesnt have a good history and not much potential left? there are exceptions to every rule, blanket layoffs based on seniority are crap, and potentially as bad for the company as laying off qualified H1B and keeping on under qualified americans.

Not fighting with torpid here since things were cleared up already but I thought I would point out that in the case of most companies that are really large like MS the whole laying off based on quality thing doesn't always apply. What matters to them is mostly how much money they will save. Hence, the whole keeping around H-1B thing. Obviously they are not going to lay off key people, but I am willing to bet that they do not screen each and every employee either unlike mid sized and smaller companies. Hell, depending on the size of the layoff, they may not even thoroughly screen each and every special projects team as a whole either.

Not true. Teams are picked on a strategic level, yes. Individuals RIF would happen by teams being told how many people they need to cut and the manager who personally knows the employees making the decision. Every RIFed employee is personally given the information in a meeting with their manager and/or HR Generalist. MS also makes a lot of effort to shift employees into other open positions if possible (there are always open positions due to turnover).

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: tfcmasta97

Originally posted by: tenthumbs
"It is imperative that in implementing its layoff plan, Microsoft ensures that American workers have priority in keeping their jobs over foreign workers on visa programs."


If the company isn't worse off because of this, I completely agree.

but microsoft is keeping their most effective employees. otherwise they'd just keep the americans. so they would be worse off

I believe you're making an assumption there, and that assumption does not match the experiences of many people who have gone through layoffs at large, publicly held companies.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: AreaCode707

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Not fighting with torpid here since things were cleared up already but I thought I would point out that in the case of most companies that are really large like MS the whole laying off based on quality thing doesn't always apply. What matters to them is mostly how much money they will save. Hence, the whole keeping around H-1B thing. Obviously they are not going to lay off key people, but I am willing to bet that they do not screen each and every employee either unlike mid sized and smaller companies. Hell, depending on the size of the layoff, they may not even thoroughly screen each and every special projects team as a whole either.

Not true. Teams are picked on a strategic level, yes. Individuals RIF would happen by teams being told how many people they need to cut and the manager who personally knows the employees making the decision. Every RIFed employee is personally given the information in a meeting with their manager and/or HR Generalist. MS also makes a lot of effort to shift employees into other open positions if possible (there are always open positions due to turnover).

Yes, I am aware that is what is supposed to happen. It just doesn't always work out like that is all I am saying. Sometimes when choosing between quality and expense they go with the expense since cutting fat and saving money is the goal. I am sure if the person is a quality employee who happens to also be expensive then they try to shift them instead of lay them off though. It would be foolish not to do that, but there are also times when there just isn't a position available during a time where downsizing is the objective. Again, a good example would be the boss of my buddy that got laid off. He was supposedly a really good employee. Why did he get laid off instead of my friend and maybe one of his co-workers? Not saying that my buddy is a bad worker. He is quite good but he is not worth as much as his boss due to differences in experience. The answer is the size of their paychecks. Not quality.

Generally speaking though, I know that what they try to do most of the time is what you are saying.

 

[1prophet]

Immigration attorneys from Cohen & Grigsby explains how they assist employers in running classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order to secure green cards for H-1b workers. See what Bush and Congress really mean by a "shortage of skilled U.S. workers." Microsoft, Oracle, Hewlett-Packard, and thousands of other companies are running fake ads in Sunday newspapers across the country each week.

 

[melchoir]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: Marlin1975

Originally posted by: Special K

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
A few points about H1-B candidates.
1. They do not get paid less than their American counterparts. These are in-demand employees with needed skills; companies compete for them.

This was my understanding as well. I thought H1B's were ranked and paid based strictly on their position within the company, which means they would be paid the exact same as an American in the same position.

Nope, they have the be paid a "prevailing wage". Take a guess who decides that.

H1Bs make less on average, some say as much as about 25% less.

That and if you are a H1B that rocks the boat. Then the company just contacts INS and says they are dropping you and INS takes care of the rest.

So you're saying that if one of my H1B coworkers has the exact same job title as me, there's a good chance that they are being paid 25%+ less for the same position?

Depends on the company. Some will pay maybe less and some maybe more. But on average they do make less. Its the big reason compaanies keep wanting more H1Bs. its all about the money.

The H1Bs at my company are the highest paid people in IT, by a large margin.

 

[maziwanka]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
by forcing microsoft to possibly keep inferior employees they cause the company and consequently its american employees, stockholders and customers harm

every little bit of intervention has long reaching effects

govt needs to STFU out of business

you missed the point of what the OP said