Senator pushes for Universal Healthcare

[imported_goku]

Anyone who thinks a universal health care system is plausible is sorely mistaken. Communism? Yeah, great in theory but disasterous when tried out. I could go on about why it's stupid but the liberals will just go on about how it's possible, it's not. Oh and FYI, I'm neither republican or democrat, and I believe in as little govt. invovlement as possible.

 

[imported_goku]

Originally posted by: bobdelt

And why do we even want people to live longer? It's only gonna make the social security problem even worse!!!

Agreed to an extent.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: sandorski
Hehe, "screw us". The lack of such a thing is screwing you over a whole lot more.

Why should I be financially for someone else's health problems?

By the way, I've had about $300,000 in back surgeries over the past couple years and I think I paid $20 in co-pay once because my mom didn't have $20 on her.

Someone else Paid for your Surgery. Those Else's Paid a whole lot more than if it was Paid through a Universal Program. As part of a Co-Pay you are already Paying for someone elses health problems and are financially responsible(believe you missed this word ) for them.

In short, you already are.

Please prove the bolded. Thank you.

Simple Math, think about it.

If it was that simple, I would think some country would have used that by now.

What about those who can't afford to pay into the system? According to you there already is such as system, but it's obivious that not everyone can afford it.

More People in the system, the more an Individuals Health Expense gets spread around.

Sorry, actuarial science ain't that simple.

Sorry, you're wrong.

 

[fskimospy]

Goku, it is not only possible... but it has been taking place and working now for decades. Read up a bit before you put your foot in your mouth.

Also, I didn't say that obesity was not a contributor to our health care problems, I just don't think you can say that it is enough to show this gigantic disparity.

 

[DVK916]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Goku, it is not only possible... but it has been taking place and working now for decades. Read up a bit before you put your foot in your mouth.

Also, I didn't say that obesity was not a contributor to our health care problems, I just don't think you can say that it is enough to show this gigantic disparity.

Studies have shown that you can contribute it though as being the main cause, and it is enough to show most of the disparity. It accounts for at least a 1-1.5 year difference.


Remember I support universal healthcare, because no child or person should die from something just because they couldn't afford treatment.

 

[imported_goku]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Goku, it is not only possible... but it has been taking place and working now for decades. Read up a bit before you put your foot in your mouth.

Also, I didn't say that obesity was not a contributor to our health care problems, I just don't think you can say that it is enough to show this gigantic disparity.

no, it's not working. Considering that my parents lived in socialist europe (austria) in the 70s, they know that the health care is absolutely horrid and that private healthcare is extremely expensive... Universal healthcare is a buzzword and a ****** pipedream, if you people have learned anything is that government run programs are bloated and are far worse than their private counterparts due to the fact that there is no motivation in the government to save money since it's a ****** beauracracy. Universal healthcare will be the death of our country if it passes, I hope it never even goes to the damn drawing board.

I could explain why it won't work but it'd be redundant considering that there is a wealth of information about why socialism and communism is bad..

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: goku

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Goku, it is not only possible... but it has been taking place and working now for decades. Read up a bit before you put your foot in your mouth.

Also, I didn't say that obesity was not a contributor to our health care problems, I just don't think you can say that it is enough to show this gigantic disparity.

no, it's not working. Considering that my parents lived in socialist europe (austria) in the 70s, they know that the health care is absolutely horrid and that private healthcare is extremely expensive... Universal healthcare is a buzzword and a ****** pipedream, if you people have learned anything is that government run programs are bloated and are far worse than their private counterparts due to the fact that there is no motivation in the government to save money since it's a ****** beauracracy. Universal healthcare will be the death of our country if it passes, I hope it never even goes to the damn drawing board.

I could explain why it won't work but it'd be redundant considering that there is a wealth of information about why socialism and communism is bad..

Ridiculous.

 

[BoberFett]

As a libertarian it's hard for me to admit it but I might be able to get behind a universal health system in the form of single payer system. It would have be severely limited however, and I doubt the universal health that anybody currently in office has in mind is limited in any way.

My universal health care system would only cover catastrophic illness. Anything which if not treated is life threatening. Those are the conditions which wipe people out financially and leave them unable to get a job with which to buy health insurance, and would mostly eliminate that downward spiral. Minor illnesses would be covered by private insurance. If you want to go the doctor because you got the sniffles, pay for it yourself or buy insurance. If you're a productive member of society, you can afford it. If you don't have a job and therefore can't afford insurance or the bill, stay home and eat chicken soup. Why should the taxpayers pay for some unemployed person to see a doctor for something which will go away in a few days of rest anyway?

I would also not cover any quality of life drugs. There's no reason anybody should be paying for Viagra other than the user. If you can't get it up, your life isn't over. Life is full of disappointments, get used to it. I'm a white guy who can't dance, should the health care system be paying for my booze so I can? (Or at least think I can)

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: goku

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Goku, it is not only possible... but it has been taking place and working now for decades. Read up a bit before you put your foot in your mouth.

Also, I didn't say that obesity was not a contributor to our health care problems, I just don't think you can say that it is enough to show this gigantic disparity.

no, it's not working. Considering that my parents lived in socialist europe (austria) in the 70s, they know that the health care is absolutely horrid and that private healthcare is extremely expensive... Universal healthcare is a buzzword and a ****** pipedream, if you people have learned anything is that government run programs are bloated and are far worse than their private counterparts due to the fact that there is no motivation in the government to save money since it's a ****** beauracracy. Universal healthcare will be the death of our country if it passes, I hope it never even goes to the damn drawing board.

I could explain why it won't work but it'd be redundant considering that there is a wealth of information about why socialism and communism is bad..

Wrong. Also, anecdotal evidence = crap. As has been mentioned many many many times before. Countries with socialized medicine spend less per capita then we do and have higher levels of health by most recognized markers. Soooooo many studies and articles and other entries have been given for this.

Please do some reading... I'm not talking trash... please check it out.

 

[ElFenix]

we don't want healthcare.

if we really wanted healthcare, people would listen to their doctors when the doctors say 'eat right, exercise, don't smoke.'

that's healthcare.

no, what we want is medical care. medical care is 'i've got high cholesterol, give me a pill or surgery to fix it.'



edit: :beer: cheers boberfett

to expand a little more, cost-effective preventative care for those truly threatening illnesses should be tops.





any discussion of how much medical care costs must start with an examination of what the money is being spent on. doing a little research for a paper a while back, i found that the overhead, paper-pushing costs alone for this massive network of payers could fund $10,000 worth of medical care for every uninsured person in the US.

that is ridiculous.

Countries with socialized medicine spend less per capita then we do and have higher levels of health by most recognized markers.

see, here is a problem where the medical care/health care dichotomy should be examined closely. if people in these other countries have healthier lifestyles, such as better diet, exercise, etc., then it is very hard to make a determination as to effectiveness of medical care. if our lifestyle makes us a generally more unhealthy bunch, then it makes sense that medical care would cost more.

additionally, the infant death statistic is complete crap and should not be used in any way, shape, or form by intelligent people until they account for the differences in measuring between the US and other countries and the difference that fertility clinics play (imho if modern medicine can give a couple 2 children who wouldn't have otherwise been able to have children, while perhaps another 2 die on their birthday, that shouldn't count against the infant death figure. in the US it does.)

 

[shrumpage]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: goku

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Goku, it is not only possible... but it has been taking place and working now for decades. Read up a bit before you put your foot in your mouth.

Also, I didn't say that obesity was not a contributor to our health care problems, I just don't think you can say that it is enough to show this gigantic disparity.

no, it's not working. Considering that my parents lived in socialist europe (austria) in the 70s, they know that the health care is absolutely horrid and that private healthcare is extremely expensive... Universal healthcare is a buzzword and a ****** pipedream, if you people have learned anything is that government run programs are bloated and are far worse than their private counterparts due to the fact that there is no motivation in the government to save money since it's a ****** beauracracy. Universal healthcare will be the death of our country if it passes, I hope it never even goes to the damn drawing board.

I could explain why it won't work but it'd be redundant considering that there is a wealth of information about why socialism and communism is bad..

Ridiculous.

Really? Which government agency or department is a model of efficiency? Post Office? IRS? The brand spank'n new Homeland Security?

 

[abj13]

Originally posted by: shrumpage

Really? Which government agency or department is a model of efficiency? Post Office? IRS? The brand spank'n new Homeland Security?

Ever hear of the Veterans Health Administration? Yeah, that evil socialized medicine that is available to the defenders of our country?

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html

Who do you think receives higher-quality health care. Medicare patients who are free to pick their own doctors and specialists? Or aging veterans stuck in those presumably filthy VA hospitals with their antiquated equipment, uncaring administrators, and incompetent staff? An answer came in 2003, when the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine published a study that compared veterans health facilities on 11 measures of quality with fee-for-service Medicare. On all 11 measures, the quality of care in veterans facilities proved to be ?significantly better.?

Here's another curious fact. The Annals of Internal Medicine recently published a study that compared veterans health facilities with commercial managed-care systems in their treatment of diabetes patients. In seven out of seven measures of quality, the VA provided better care. It gets stranger. Pushed by large employers who are eager to know what they are buying when they purchase health care for their employees, an outfit called the National Committee for Quality Assurance today ranks health-care plans on 17 different performance measures. These include how well the plans manage high blood pressure or how precisely they adhere to standard protocols of evidence-based medicine such as prescribing beta blockers for patients recovering from a heart attack. Winning NCQA's seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. And who do you suppose this year's winner is: Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Massachusetts General? Nope. In every single category, the VHA system outperforms the highest rated non-VHA hospitals.

Sadly, most people don't understand how the VA system is a good model for health care. So many of the problems expereinced by the current capitalistic models, ie non-centralized medical records, redundancy, wasted manpower in tracking down non-payers, albatrosses like the ER situation, have been addressed by the VA system, allowing it function. But that's the problem, so many do not understand the problems with the current system, claims of "evil socialism" is simple enough to blind them from what is slowly killing our country finanically and medically, its our current health care system.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: abj13

Originally posted by: shrumpage

Really? Which government agency or department is a model of efficiency? Post Office? IRS? The brand spank'n new Homeland Security?

Ever hear of the Veterans Health Administration? Yeah, that evil socialized medicine that is available to the defenders of our country?

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html

Who do you think receives higher-quality health care. Medicare patients who are free to pick their own doctors and specialists? Or aging veterans stuck in those presumably filthy VA hospitals with their antiquated equipment, uncaring administrators, and incompetent staff? An answer came in 2003, when the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine published a study that compared veterans health facilities on 11 measures of quality with fee-for-service Medicare. On all 11 measures, the quality of care in veterans facilities proved to be ?significantly better.?

Here's another curious fact. The Annals of Internal Medicine recently published a study that compared veterans health facilities with commercial managed-care systems in their treatment of diabetes patients. In seven out of seven measures of quality, the VA provided better care. It gets stranger. Pushed by large employers who are eager to know what they are buying when they purchase health care for their employees, an outfit called the National Committee for Quality Assurance today ranks health-care plans on 17 different performance measures. These include how well the plans manage high blood pressure or how precisely they adhere to standard protocols of evidence-based medicine such as prescribing beta blockers for patients recovering from a heart attack. Winning NCQA's seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. And who do you suppose this year's winner is: Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Massachusetts General? Nope. In every single category, the VHA system outperforms the highest rated non-VHA hospitals.

Sadly, most people don't understand how the VA system is a good model for health care. So many of the problems expereinced by the current capitalistic models, ie non-centralized medical records, redundancy, wasted manpower in tracking down non-payers, albatrosses like the ER situation, have been addressed by the VA system, allowing it function. But that's the problem, so many do not understand the problems with the current system, claims of "evil socialism" is simple enough to blind them from what is slowly killing our country finanically and medically, its our current health care system.

The biggest issue with the VA, and this can be seen in nations with nationalized health care, is that some of the wait times can be ridiculous.

 

[abj13]

Originally posted by: Strk

The biggest issue with the VA, and this can be seen in nations with nationalized health care, is that some of the wait times can be ridiculous.

The "wait times" maybe shorter with our current system, but that is largely a function of 1)Uninsured not seeing doctors regularly and 2)Insurance policies pressure people into waiting for the problem to evolve (or hope it goes away) into something greater (ie surgery), when a preventative medical approach could have addressed the progression of the medical issue. In the US, its a tradeoff between which should we spend, our time, or our money. Well, we continue to choose increased and rising medical care costs, costs that will amount to an "arm and a leg" of our GDP.

What is going to kill our system right now? Its $$$, not the possibility of having to wait longer. If increased wait times occur, other countries haven't experienced a decreased in qualtity of health care, as referenced by previous postings in this thread.

 

[imported_goku]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: goku

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Goku, it is not only possible... but it has been taking place and working now for decades. Read up a bit before you put your foot in your mouth.

Also, I didn't say that obesity was not a contributor to our health care problems, I just don't think you can say that it is enough to show this gigantic disparity.

no, it's not working. Considering that my parents lived in socialist europe (austria) in the 70s, they know that the health care is absolutely horrid and that private healthcare is extremely expensive... Universal healthcare is a buzzword and a ****** pipedream, if you people have learned anything is that government run programs are bloated and are far worse than their private counterparts due to the fact that there is no motivation in the government to save money since it's a ****** beauracracy. Universal healthcare will be the death of our country if it passes, I hope it never even goes to the damn drawing board.

I could explain why it won't work but it'd be redundant considering that there is a wealth of information about why socialism and communism is bad..

Wrong. Also, anecdotal evidence = crap. As has been mentioned many many many times before. Countries with socialized medicine spend less per capita then we do and have higher levels of health by most recognized markers. Soooooo many studies and articles and other entries have been given for this.

Please do some reading... I'm not talking trash... please check it out.

You're not considering other economic factors, it's not about the spending of money but how strong of an economy they have. Look at europe, they've got nothing going for them, what do they make that we import? I bet you can name the things on your hand. Socialism is BAD and all of you condoning it should be ashamed. A society shouldn't ever punish the successful, socialism does just that. Universal healthcare just improves the life of the least fortunate while huring the lives of those who are middleclassed and wealthy enough to afford health insurance but not paying for their own bills.

Socialism is bad, don't waste your time arguing with me about it because I won't budge. Stupid hippies...

 

[UberNeuman]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: UberNeuman
Specop 007 - in your post title you say "screw us" - who is the "us" you refer to?

You, me, hell every person on ATOT.

Private healthcare has 3 things going for it over a universal healthcare.

1) Its better
2) Its faster
2) Its more expensive.

I'll gladly suffer through #3 to enjoy #1 and #2.

1. I'd suggest remedial math..
2. You're already paying more to cover the sick and dying right now...
3. Is the number that comes after two...

 

[fstime]

Bad idea, then again, a lot of social govt programs are bad.

Social programs don't work!

At least the ones we have.

Poverty will always exist, those who cannot afford healthcare shouldn't get it out of our pockets!

 

[MonkeyK]

Originally posted by: gokuSocialism is bad, don't waste your time arguing with me about it because I won't budge. Stupid hippies...

Try to understand what a topic is about before you post. And stop trying to tell us how you love socialism. You may think that it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it has no bearing on this topic.

The main point of the proposal is that all Americans should have health insurance. It does not say that healthcare will be provided by the government or that the insurance will be administered by the government.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: MonkeyK

Originally posted by: gokuSocialism is bad, don't waste your time arguing with me about it because I won't budge. Stupid hippies...

Try to understand what a topic is about before you post. And stop trying to tell us how you love socialism. You may think that it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it has no bearing on this topic.

The main point of the proposal is that all Americans should have health insurance. It does not say that healthcare will be provided by the government or that the insurance will be administered by the government.

Are you trolling, or did you just fail to think before typing?

Without providing either the care of the insurance, what could the government do to provide universal health care?

 

[MonkeyK]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: MonkeyK

Originally posted by: gokuSocialism is bad, don't waste your time arguing with me about it because I won't budge. Stupid hippies...

Try to understand what a topic is about before you post. And stop trying to tell us how you love socialism. You may think that it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it has no bearing on this topic.

The main point of the proposal is that all Americans should have health insurance. It does not say that healthcare will be provided by the government or that the insurance will be administered by the government.

Are you trolling, or did you just fail to think before typing?

Without providing either the care of the insurance, what could the government do to provide universal health care?

Try reading the OP.

...here I'll help:

The plan would require that employers "cash out" their existing health plans by terminating coverage and paying the amount saved directly to workers as increased wages. Workers then would be required to buy health insurance from a large pool of private plans.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: goku

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: goku

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Goku, it is not only possible... but it has been taking place and working now for decades. Read up a bit before you put your foot in your mouth.

Also, I didn't say that obesity was not a contributor to our health care problems, I just don't think you can say that it is enough to show this gigantic disparity.

no, it's not working. Considering that my parents lived in socialist europe (austria) in the 70s, they know that the health care is absolutely horrid and that private healthcare is extremely expensive... Universal healthcare is a buzzword and a ****** pipedream, if you people have learned anything is that government run programs are bloated and are far worse than their private counterparts due to the fact that there is no motivation in the government to save money since it's a ****** beauracracy. Universal healthcare will be the death of our country if it passes, I hope it never even goes to the damn drawing board.

I could explain why it won't work but it'd be redundant considering that there is a wealth of information about why socialism and communism is bad..

Wrong. Also, anecdotal evidence = crap. As has been mentioned many many many times before. Countries with socialized medicine spend less per capita then we do and have higher levels of health by most recognized markers. Soooooo many studies and articles and other entries have been given for this.

Please do some reading... I'm not talking trash... please check it out.

You're not considering other economic factors, it's not about the spending of money but how strong of an economy they have. Look at europe, they've got nothing going for them, what do they make that we import? I bet you can name the things on your hand. Socialism is BAD and all of you condoning it should be ashamed. A society shouldn't ever punish the successful, socialism does just that. Universal healthcare just improves the life of the least fortunate while huring the lives of those who are middleclassed and wealthy enough to afford health insurance but not paying for their own bills.

Socialism is bad, don't waste your time arguing with me about it because I won't budge. Stupid hippies...

Idiocy is worse and all those who condone it should be embarrassed. Europe has a lot going for it, in fact Germany has surpassed the US in Exports. If that's your criteria, then say hello to China for me.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: MonkeyK

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: MonkeyK

Originally posted by: gokuSocialism is bad, don't waste your time arguing with me about it because I won't budge. Stupid hippies...

Try to understand what a topic is about before you post. And stop trying to tell us how you love socialism. You may think that it is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it has no bearing on this topic.

The main point of the proposal is that all Americans should have health insurance. It does not say that healthcare will be provided by the government or that the insurance will be administered by the government.

Are you trolling, or did you just fail to think before typing?

Without providing either the care of the insurance, what could the government do to provide universal health care?

Try reading the OP.

...here I'll help:

The plan would require that employers "cash out" their existing health plans by terminating coverage and paying the amount saved directly to workers as increased wages. Workers then would be required to buy health insurance from a large pool of private plans.

And I suppose you think that taking $50 out of your left pocket and put into your right means you earned $50 dollars?

1. Forcing employers to cancel their insurance and pay the difference to employers as salary, then forcing workers to buy private insurance? It's a shell game. Nothing is lost or gained.

2. Even if that was the idea, what about people people who don't currently receive health care benefits from their company or who are unemployed. They already make zero dollars in the form of healthcare, and so will not have additional money with which to buy insurance.

The term "universal healthcare" means everyone is covered. In order for everyone to be covered, the government will have to provide it in some way. I'm sorry you don't understand simple English.

 

[MonkeyK]

Originally posted by: BoberFettAnd I suppose you think that taking $50 out of your left pocket and put into your right means you earned $50 dollars?

1. Forcing employers to cancel their insurance and pay the difference to employers as salary, then forcing workers to buy private insurance? It's a shell game. Nothing is lost or gained.

2. Even if that was the idea, what about people people who don't currently receive health care benefits from their company or who are unemployed. They already make zero dollars in the form of healthcare, and so will not have additional money with which to buy insurance.

The term "universal healthcare" means everyone is covered. In order for everyone to be covered, the government will have to provide it in some way. I'm sorry you don't understand simple English.

Try thinking before you type. This is all that my first post was trying to point out. If you feel compelled to comment, at least understand that there may be more to the topic than the title.


1)It is not a shell game, something significant is gained that you could find it if you bothered to read the OP. Since this is so simple to understand, I will let you try and figure it out.

...actually I don't trust you to try and read it, so I will give you hints, one thing starts with "port' and ends with "ability". Another starts with "everyone" and ends with "has access to group rates". Another... oh just read the article. Or read about it right from Senator Wyden's site


2)Again read before you type. You have access to the same info that I do. The proposal is that everyone has the opportunity to buy coverage. For some this will be subsidized. BTW ER visits by people who cannot afford to pay are subsidised by insurance premiums of those who can afford to pay anyway.

 

[fskimospy]

Two things. First of all if you are trying to say that socialized medicine is responsible for european economic stagnation, you are woefully ignorant. -THEY SPEND LESS PER CAPITA THEN WE DO- that means MORE money for other things.... and LESS of a drain on their economy. I would also not try to talk about export strength when I lived in a country with the largest trade deficit in the world. Your Ayn Randian philosophy on economics is a waste of time and space. If you can't understand the social implications of why progressive taxation exists, I suggest you consult the French and Russian revolutions.

Secondly,

Socialism is bad, don't waste your time arguing with me about it because I won't budge. Stupid hippies...

Any time you say the equivalent of "nothing you can say or show me will change my mind" means that you have turned off your brain, and are now choosing to be willfully ignorant. Shame on you.

 

[xr71]

A low income American family home is over 1800 square feet.
An average home in the EU is less than 1000.

Americans have barely 4% of our workforce unemployed except when Jimmy Carter is around.
Germany calls 10% unemployment a good day.

The US has a high per capita GDP of $40000.
They don't even get $30k across the sea.

And we want to copy these commies! Sorry it died 20 years ago.