Senator Tim Johnson (D) of S. Dakota hospitalized for "stroke-like symptoms"

[International Machine Consortium]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: BoomerD
First off, I hope the guy recovers fully from this. From what they were saying earlier, there's still the posibility of some brain damage from all this...


Next, really, what does it matter if the governor appoints a repig as his replacement? The Dems don't have enough votes to over-ride a veto anyway, so this won't really change anything. The Senate can't pass anything without House support, and the Dems have a pretty solid majority there. YES, this gives ol "Black-Heart Cheney" the deciding vote on anything 50/50, but if it's that close, hopefully the house will have some control of the issue anyway, and if Cheney votes against it, it wouldn't have a chance of getting signed by Bushie either...since "Dead-Eye Dick" tells him what to sign and what NOT to sign...

It's huge whether dems contrrol the Senate. While they can't override a veto, it gives them complete control over the committees - chairs, what issues are brought up for a vote, what gets investigated, etc. The republicans have left the democrats with pretty much as little power as possible for years, breaking old traditions about the minority power having some say, not even telling dems where meetings are held so that the dem staffs run around the capitol looking for them...

The dems can do real oversite with the majority and they are unable to without.

I decided to come back just so I could disagree with Craig.

The senate has always been a little less ?populist? than the house, therefore most of the trouble and investigating will happen in the house.

The way the senate is run it takes a lot more working as a group to get things done. In the house all you need is 50%+1 and you can do whatever you want.

The only major difference in whether the Republicans take back the senate will be on judges, since it would make it easier to get them up for a vote if the Republicans controlled it. Plus it would stop the Dems from blocking every judge Bush appoints.

Otherwise nothing will change.

Will be very interesting to see what kind of pressure is placed on him to retire after this. I am sure his doctors will suggest that course of action as well.

And as we all know, you're always right. :laugh: laugh; laugh;

Two words: Strom Thurmond.

2 more words, Joe Biden (he has a brain hemorrhage and held his seat during a long recovery. There's precedent Repubs. Don't start celebrating yet!

 

[ProfJohn]

Personally I would not celebrate the death or incapacitation of another American.

It comes from this thing us righties have called faith and compassion.
I hope he recovers 100% from this. But realty leads me to believe that he will have a lot of pressure to leave or stay placed on him.

My personal message to him... you are 60 years old; you have a wife, kids and grandkids. Forget congress and the Democrats and all that mess and retire and spend as much time as you can with your family. The country will survive with or without you. You mean WAY more to your kids and family than you do to the Democrat or Republican Party.

Shame on either side who tried to make politics out of this.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Personally I would not celebrate the death or incapacitation of another American.

It comes from this thing us righties have called faith and compassion.
I hope he recovers 100% from this. But realty leads me to believe that he will have a lot of pressure to leave or stay placed on him.

My personal message to him... you are 60 years old; you have a wife, kids and grandkids. Forget congress and the Democrats and all that mess and retire and spend as much time as you can with your family. The country will survive with or without you. You mean WAY more to your kids and family than you do to the Democrat or Republican Party.

Shame on either side who tried to make politics out of this.

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Will be very interesting to see what kind of pressure is placed on him to retire after this. I am sure his doctors will suggest that course of action as well.

Pressure from who, you??? The GOP?? Bush??

Do you really think Johnson gives a crap about your feigned concern or what ANYBODY else thinks? He's a big boy, a senator in fact and it's his decesion. You might just want to wait around a bit and see how he is before you start advising him to hang it up.

 

[randym431]

Listen up folks.
This is something I know well about.
This happened in my family in 2001 on labor day.

What it is, is a maze of veins that formed over years. Usually something like high blood pressure causes them to finally burst. Its like an aneurysm, but oddly once the burst takes place, the matter is healed by itself. The bleeding usually stops, and in fact there is no evidence of exactly where the bleed originated usually. That is, if one survives this burst and bleed, which this Senator did.

Now the bad...
Any bleeding on the brain, what ever the cause, is very very very very bad.
This blood pool in the brain is VERY toxic. After 3-7 days something called vassal spasms occur. Its a toxicity in the brain (this blood spill) that causes the veins in the area to constrict cutting off blood to parts of the brain. This CAN kill you. Its like having a stroke. The body has a system where your spinal fluid is constantly circulated from the brain. These are very small tubes for this spinal fluid. And this system is what will "try" to remove the blood spill from the brain and cause healing.

But these spinal fluid tubes are actually too small to handle the large blood corpuscles? and these tubes tend to clog. When they clog, the fluid fills in the brain and that too can put you in a coma, then kill you.

So if this clog happens, what they usually can do is put a tube in the brain to tap off this spinal fluid and stop it from building up in the brain. It works very well. And hopefully after a few days, this along with the body will remove the pooled blood spill. But the vassal spasms "may" cause stroke-like conditions that cause damage to the brain. And like a stroke, if you get thru it, you may have brain damage from the blood flow being reduced by the spasms. Just like a stroke, you "may" recover over time with therapy, you may not.

So here?s the list of hurdles one with this must overcome.
1. The initial bleed.
2. The vassal spasms that set in 3-7 days later.
3. Stroke-like condition from the spasms.
4. The spinal fluid tubes possible clogging as they remove the spilled blood.

But... one CAN get thru these hurdles and survive. It usually takes a full 2 months of hospital stay. Surviving the initial bleed is hurdle #1. The vassal spasms is the second BIG hurdle. But it is possible to recover 100% within 2 months.

I'm very surprised they did actual invasive surgery, since many doctors believe this complicates the matter greatly. many doctors rather monitor the person and insert the "drain" when the brain swelling begins, and let the body do the repair work itself.
So the fact they actually operated is a worry. But they did not know. All the x-ray will show in these cases is a blood pool with no obvious source, since these twisted blood veins already burst, spilled their blood, then closes and healed. Its really strange.

So his next big hurdle to watch for is these vassal spasms that will occur in about 3 days. How severe they become and how long they last will be a life or death issue.

He has a long road ahead, but one CAN recover within 2 to 3 months and 100%.

Like they say, touch and go...

 

[International Machine Consortium]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Personally I would not celebrate the death or incapacitation of another American.

Riiight. Which is why you selected THIS thread to come out of your little self-imposed exile for: You smell a chance for the Repubs to recover from their dismal showing in November....
Repulsive.

One precedent, however, is the case of Sen. Karl Mundt, also from South Dakota, who suffered a debilitating stroke in 1969. (Long-term senate absences)

He remained in office until January 1973, when his term expired.

Mundt offered to resign but only on the condition that the governor appoint his wife to fill the vacancy. The governor refused, and Mundt retained the Senate seat.

So, don't think that the gov can just replace him at will. He's gonna have to die, basically. That would be a nice feather in the Republican's cap....:roll:

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Personally I would not celebrate the death or incapacitation of another American.

Riiight. Which is why you selected THIS thread to come out of your little self-imposed exile for: You smell a chance for the Repubs to recover from their dismal showing in November....
Repulsive.

One precedent, however, is the case of Sen. Karl Mundt, also from South Dakota, who suffered a debilitating stroke in 1969. (Long-term senate absences)

He remained in office until January 1973, when his term expired.

Mundt offered to resign but only on the condition that the governor appoint his wife to fill the vacancy. The governor refused, and Mundt retained the Senate seat.

So, don't think that the gov can just replace him at will. He's gonna have to die, basically. That would be a nice feather in the Republican's cap....:roll:

That pretty much sums their newfound arrogance up today.

 

[tamik]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Personally I would not celebrate the death or incapacitation of another American.

It comes from this thing us righties have called faith and compassion.
I hope he recovers 100% from this. But realty leads me to believe that he will have a lot of pressure to leave or stay placed on him.

My personal message to him... you are 60 years old; you have a wife, kids and grandkids. Forget congress and the Democrats and all that mess and retire and spend as much time as you can with your family. The country will survive with or without you. You mean WAY more to your kids and family than you do to the Democrat or Republican Party.

Shame on either side who tried to make politics out of this.

Very close to the reality of the situation here.

I believe that if Senator Johnson believes he cannot effectively carry out his duties, he'll resign. If he resigns, Gov. Rounds will appoint himself as the Senator. (Both are well liked and respected in South Dakota)

Gov. Rounds will be challenging him in 2008 for his seat and is the only viable candidate to beat him. So, if Senator Johnson stays in the Senate incapacitated and doesn't vote or doesn't do anything just to keep the nationwide Democrat majority, he will be ousted in 2008 and history in South Dakota will not look favorably on him.

So either way you look at it, if he cannot carry out his duties, Gov. Rounds will be the next Senator from South Dakota....Now or in 2008.

E

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: tamik
I believe that if Senator Johnson believes he cannot effectively carry out his duties, he'll resign.

I very strongly doubt that if Senator Johnson is not essentially in a coma that he will resign under the circumstances. The precident was set when a South Dakota Republican Senator was unable to return to the Senate after having a stroke, but refused to resign for the last 3 years of his term. Keep in mind that was in a situation where control of the Senate did not hinge on the Senator resigning. As long as Senator Johnson, or key aides representing him, can make the remotely convincing argument that he may be able to return to his duties before the end of his term, he should be able to easily resist any pressure to resign. (As far as history is concerned its not like he's the first Senator to do this and a number of Senators have been unable to return to office for extended periods of time after serious health problems and not resigned.)

 

[Aimster]

He will not resign.. I strongly doubt it. If he does so Republicians will control everything again.

 

[Balt]

Reading about all of this, I'm just glad they caught it as early as they did. It sounds like it could have potentially been a lot worse, but it was a "good time" for a terrible thing to happen since he was able to receive immediate medical advice and care in D.C.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: tamik
I believe that if Senator Johnson believes he cannot effectively carry out his duties, he'll resign.

I very strongly doubt that if Senator Johnson is not essentially in a coma that he will resign under the circumstances. The precident was set when a South Dakota Republican Senator was unable to return to the Senate after having a stroke, but refused to resign for the last 3 years of his term. Keep in mind that was in a situation where control of the Senate did not hinge on the Senator resigning. As long as Senator Johnson, or key aides representing him, can make the remotely convincing argument that he may be able to return to his duties before the end of his term, he should be able to easily resist any pressure to resign. (As far as history is concerned its not like he's the first Senator to do this and a number of Senators have been unable to return to office for extended periods of time after serious health problems and not resigned.)

That would be an interesting turn of events.

Makes the Senate 50-49 basicly, the Democrats still control. That would make for a strange 2 years. They would only be able to vote on certain things when every Democrat is there or else they could lose. What a mess.
Best thing for the country is for this guy to get better and serve out his term, or to resign. Sitting in a hospital bed on life support while being a Senator is not a good plan.

 

[tamik]

Originally posted by: Aimster
He will not resign.. I strongly doubt it. If he does so Republicians will control everything again.

Do you think that really matters to him if he cannot make a full recovery? That Senate seat is lost to the Republicans now or in 2008 if he doesn't make a full recovery.


Do you know Tim Johnson? (My husband knew him as a neighbor!) Do you think everything comes down to politics with every politician? Maybe family comes first to Tim Johnson.

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: tamik
Do you think that really matters to him if he cannot make a full recovery? That Senate seat is lost to the Republicans now or in 2008 if he doesn't make a full recovery.

Do you know Tim Johnson? (My husband knew him as a neighbor!) Do you think everything comes down to politics with every politician? Maybe family comes first to Tim Johnson.

Uh, first of all on point two, there really is almost no difference whatsoever in how he can interact and deal with his family regardless of whether he resigns or not if he's in that sort of condition. He might feel obligated to spend a bit of time keeping track of what is going on in the Senate, but if he's not able to function in the Senate he can actually spend a large portion of his time with his family since he's not in a condition to attend Senate votes. In fact his family may feel that the possibility of him returning to the Senate is an important motivator to help get him to focus on recovering.

Secondly, there is a MASSIVE difference regarding the seat being lost now or in two years. The obvious point is that this gives two years in which Democrats control the Senate. Its also obviously true that the Democrats may be the ones in control of the Presidency and Vice-Presidency with the tiebreaker in the Senate still leaving Democrats in control in 2008. In addition to this, the Senate election map in two years is set up to make it quite likely that the Democrats will pick up at least a Senate seat somewhere else even if they lose the one in South Dakota. (Why politics over the next two years may change the outcome, knowing what we know now it would appear that more Republican Senate seats are in danger in 2008.) Finally, I wouldn't assume that the Democratic candidate in 2008 would necessarily lose the Senate seat. I've already heard a possible candidate mentioned, and If Senator Johnson hasn't recovered by then he wouldn't run for re-election.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: tamik

Originally posted by: Aimster
He will not resign.. I strongly doubt it. If he does so Republicians will control everything again.

Do you think that really matters to him if he cannot make a full recovery? That Senate seat is lost to the Republicans now or in 2008 if he doesn't make a full recovery.


Do you know Tim Johnson? (My husband knew him as a neighbor!) Do you think everything comes down to politics with every politician? Maybe family comes first to Tim Johnson.

Thank you, that is what I was trying to say.

He should forget the politics and make a decision that is best for his family.
The country and Democratic party will be ok without him in DC, his family will not if he dies from the stress or while in office.

If he only sees himself with a few years left to live spend it with the loved ones and not the politicians.

Personally I do not understand why so many of these guys keep going well into their 60?s, 70?s and 80?s. Retire and enjoy your family while you can. Why die on capital hill where you get a few stories about what a great guy you were and then forgotten about.
Take what time you have left and spend it with your family, they will appreciate you a lot more than some newspaper writer or donor.

 

[ProfJohn]

In Response to Aegeon's comment
The senate and the house in 2008 will with almost 100% certainty go to the party that wins the White House. They are that close that any President should get enough votes down ticket to see the happen. The only way this might not happen is if we see 2000 all over with one person taking the popular vote, but another getting the electors by winning certain seats.

I have not seen the make up of the 2008 Senate races. But a lot of the house seats that the Democrats picked up were in districts that Bush won in 2004. That means these are toss up type districts and can easily go back the other way.

Despite all the talk about how a bipartisan government is good for the country people don't vote that way.

 

[tamik]

Originally posted by: Aegeon

Originally posted by: tamik
Do you think that really matters to him if he cannot make a full recovery? That Senate seat is lost to the Republicans now or in 2008 if he doesn't make a full recovery.

Do you know Tim Johnson? (My husband knew him as a neighbor!) Do you think everything comes down to politics with every politician? Maybe family comes first to Tim Johnson.

Uh, first of all on point two, there really is almost no difference whatsoever in how he can interact and deal with his family regardless of whether he resigns or not if he's in that sort of condition. He might feel obligated to spend a bit of time keeping track of what is going on in the Senate, but if he's not able to function in the Senate he can actually spend a large portion of his time with his family since he's not in a condition to attend Senate votes. In fact his family may feel that the possibility of him returning to the Senate is an important motivator to help get him to focus on recovering.

Secondly, there is a MASSIVE difference regarding the seat being lost now or in two years. The obvious point is that this gives two years in which Democrats control the Senate. Its also obviously true that the Democrats may be the ones in control of the Presidency and Vice-Presidency with the tiebreaker in the Senate still leaving Democrats in control in 2008. In addition to this, the Senate election map in two years is set up to make it quite likely that the Democrats will pick up at least a Senate seat somewhere else even if they lose the one in South Dakota. (Why politics over the next two years may change the outcome, knowing what we know now it would appear that more Republican Senate seats are in danger in 2008.) Finally, I wouldn't assume that the Democratic candidate in 2008 would necessarily lose the Senate seat. I've already heard a possible candidate mentioned, and If Senator Johnson hasn't recovered by then he wouldn't run for re-election.

(Tami's Husband)
Oh, okay. Thanks for explaining South Dakota politics and everything that surrounds this situation. Whew! I'm glad I got educated in 1 post of how things are done here in South Dakota. My 20 years of voting in South Dakota never taught me all that! Next time I see the Johnsons in the HyVee grocery store, I'll tell them you set me straight!

 

[Aegeon]

Originally posted by: tamik
(Tami's Husband)
Oh, okay. Thanks for explaining South Dakota politics and everything that surrounds this situation. Whew! I'm glad I got educated in 1 post of how things are done here in South Dakota. My 20 years of voting in South Dakota never taught me all that! Next time I see the Johnsons in the HyVee grocery store, I'll tell them you set me straight!

I was covering national politics primarily rather than local ones, which I certainly am qualified to comment on.

I could be surprised and I don't know this for certain, but I'd find it really unexpected if Johnson wants to be the person responsible for giving control of the Senate to Republicans by resigning. If Tami's husband is an very close friend of the Johnsons rather than simply a neighbor I would reconsider things more strongly, but what it comes down to is the Senator can focus on his family while he's attempting to recover without having to resign so there isn't much of a compromise involved here. In response to Professor John, unless things are worse than have been reported so far, there is actually no reason Senator Johnson couldn't live quite a few more years so its not merely a matter of having a limited time left, and keep in mind the man is only 60 years old right now.

To be completely clear, it would be even more shocking if he resigns while he has a good chance at an eventual full recovery. The Senate tradition of allowing Senators to do this while they stay in office is actually strongly established at this point.

 

[tamik]

I don't know what part of the country you're from (You don't show a profile). But, South Dakota is smaller than most Congressional Districts. We vote more for the person than the political party. No, I am not close friends with Senator Johnson. (Although, I know his son Brooks quite well and can recognize his family whenever they're home in Vermillion, SD population under 10,000.) I look at this situation only if he is not 100%. If he's not 100% he could care less if the Senate is controlled by Republicans or Democrats. If a recovery takes only a few months and prognosis is that he'll be near 100%, I expect him to stay. If the prognosis is a year or more or if he'll never even attain 90%, I expect that he'll resign. He can always resign, make a recovery and run for his seat again in 2008. If that happened, he'd likely be elected back into the Senate even if Rounds was the "incumbent".

 

[chowderhead]

Originally posted by: tamik

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Personally I would not celebrate the death or incapacitation of another American.

It comes from this thing us righties have called faith and compassion.
I hope he recovers 100% from this. But realty leads me to believe that he will have a lot of pressure to leave or stay placed on him.

My personal message to him... you are 60 years old; you have a wife, kids and grandkids. Forget congress and the Democrats and all that mess and retire and spend as much time as you can with your family. The country will survive with or without you. You mean WAY more to your kids and family than you do to the Democrat or Republican Party.

Shame on either side who tried to make politics out of this.

Very close to the reality of the situation here.

I believe that if Senator Johnson believes he cannot effectively carry out his duties, he'll resign. If he resigns, Gov. Rounds will appoint himself as the Senator. (Both are well liked and respected in South Dakota)

Gov. Rounds will be challenging him in 2008 for his seat and is the only viable candidate to beat him. So, if Senator Johnson stays in the Senate incapacitated and doesn't vote or doesn't do anything just to keep the nationwide Democrat majority, he will be ousted in 2008 and history in South Dakota will not look favorably on him.

So either way you look at it, if he cannot carry out his duties, Gov. Rounds will be the next Senator from South Dakota....Now or in 2008.

E

If Johnson resigns, I doubt very much that Rounds would appoint himself to fill the Senate seat (i.e. resign and have his lt. governor ascend to the governorship and appoint him).
The track record of self appointments by governors to the Senate is bad in terms of winning the next election. There have been nine cases and all but one have gone on to lose the succeeding election whether in the primary or the general. Rounds may be popular but for some reason people don't look too kindly to someone hiring oneself to a position. In all likelyhood, if Johnson were to resign, Rounds would appoint a caretaker Republican who would not seek election so Rounds, if he wanted to, could run in an open seat in 2008 i.e. he could appoint former Republican governor Walt Miller who is like in his 80s. Remember, you have Stephanie Herseth as the at large Democratic Representative and she is just as popular and well know as Rounds and would be a formidable candidate for US Senate.

 

[slash196]

Why does the governor get to appoint whoever he wants? Shouldn't the democratic party get to pick the replacement?

Also, I have heard in the past about senators dying, and their wife takes the seat in their place. Is this just a state-by-state thing?

 

[ericlp]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: tamik

Originally posted by: Aimster
He will not resign.. I strongly doubt it. If he does so Republicians will control everything again.

Do you think that really matters to him if he cannot make a full recovery? That Senate seat is lost to the Republicans now or in 2008 if he doesn't make a full recovery.


Do you know Tim Johnson? (My husband knew him as a neighbor!) Do you think everything comes down to politics with every politician? Maybe family comes first to Tim Johnson.

Thank you, that is what I was trying to say.

He should forget the politics and make a decision that is best for his family.
The country and Democratic party will be ok without him in DC, his family will not if he dies from the stress or while in office.

If he only sees himself with a few years left to live spend it with the loved ones and not the politicians.

Personally I do not understand why so many of these guys keep going well into their 60?s, 70?s and 80?s. Retire and enjoy your family while you can. Why die on capital hill where you get a few stories about what a great guy you were and then forgotten about.
Take what time you have left and spend it with your family, they will appreciate you a lot more than some newspaper writer or donor.

I know you are a die hard republican...

I agree with you and you actually make some sense for a change....

But I seriously doubt you would have typed this if it was republican that was in the hospital and would swing to the left if he/she didn't return.

I think it's a bunch of sh!t, if we had a fair system and the public voted for certain party to get a seat then we should make sure if the guy didn't return then they should be replaced with the same party... But then again, it's never fair is it?

 

[International Machine Consortium]

Again, the guy ain't dead yet. This should appeal to the South Dakotans: Don't count your chickens until they've hatched....
If he dies, you get it back. Otherwise, not gonna happen.
I know Tim Johnson. Tim Johnson's a friend of mine. And you're no Tim Johnson. :laugh:

See ya on down to the HyVee then. *waves :laugh:

By the way, my good friend Gov Rounds said this in response to whether or not he wanted to run for the Senate.

''I have never expressed an interest in running for the Senate,'' Rounds said before the November election. ''I have no desire to work in Washington, D.C. I simply cannot imagine why anyone would leave a job in South Dakota working as governor, which I still consider the greatest job in the world, to go to Washington, D.C.''

Except ifn mu good friend timmy goes inta one a them thar vegetative states. THEN, it's Mr. Rounds goes ta Washinton!

 

[BDawg]

I simply cannot imagine why anyone would leave a job in South Dakota working as governor

I would say the first reason is to get out of S. Dakota.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: slash196
Why does the governor get to appoint whoever he wants? Shouldn't the democratic party get to pick the replacement?

Also, I have heard in the past about senators dying, and their wife takes the seat in their place. Is this just a state-by-state thing?

Because the gov is the leader of the state sending the representative. It doesnt make a lot of sense for Howard Dean from VT to pick a replacement for the people of SD when the gov who is elected by the people of SD can.

But I thought somewhere they said the appointment was only good for 90 days and then a special election was done to find a new winner?

 

[International Machine Consortium]

Mwhahahahahaa. bada boom bing