Senators try sabotage: Republicans Warn Iran Against Nuclear Deal With Obama

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,711
6,198
126
Sending letters to the leaders of foreign nations suggesting that your party will undermine any agreement they happen to reach with our country is pretty obviously sabotage.

I have no idea why any person would defend this sort of behavior.

Fear and the righteous certainty it produces, that anything is justified to stop the fear. The experience of fear, intense, full blown, and terrifying is the first sign that childhood trauma is returning to conscious memory. We are motivated, unconsciously and more powerfully than any other motive, to kill everything on earth before letting that happen.

Adults have no idea they are stuck emotionally, in early childhood. All these poor fools are trying to prevent a disaster that happened, decades before in their childhood. Each of us is absolutely convinced at the core of our feelings that we are the worst person on the planet.

All of us have some sort of breathing tube, more or less constricted, we've managed to preserve that connects us to our original being and a modicum of mental health. But when those fear buttons are pushed, look out.
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
8
0
The real kicker - they do not know the details of the deal,.. since nothing has been agreed on or near decided on.

That deal could have everlasting peace in the Middle East and Obama eating a bag of dicks everyday for the rest of his life, but the Republicans would still want to over turn it.

The biggest thing they should be causing a stink over is that the Obama administration has not outlined anything in sharing the details when they are finalized, with congress. I certainly support the outrage over that.

But this crap, ugh, disgusting.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
Since the deal isn't done yet the same applies to you.

We do know obama's negotiating position and what obama would like to see. Whether Iran has to wait 12 months or 10 years is what is at stake now. The framework of the agreement is widely known. Sorry I have to point that out to you.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,711
6,198
126
Exactly what needs to be done beyond sanctions... well I don't want to see a war on another front... but I do know that giving into Iran's demands is not the way to go.

Why do you not know one thing but are sure of another. Why do you even believe you are actually even dealing with the real issues. Your opinions determine the direction of your thought, yet your opinions are worthless. Before you can begin to think, you need humility. This will allow you to question your own thinking instead of falling for whatever assumptions you have been programmed with.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,818
49,514
136
Germany is a big trading partner with Iraq. China and Russia are selling the Iranians military tech. France has been making trade deals with Iran and would probably love to start selling cars there again. And the UK who knows what is going on with them.

No it does not alter my thinking one iota.

Egypt is also a large trading partner with Iraq, much larger than Germany as a % of GDP. Same with Jordan. If you're using that to discount Germany, then you need to discount those two as well.

So now that we know that two of the three additional countries you mentioned as having problems with this deal have the same conflict of interest that you used to disqualify Germany's opinion, will this alter your thinking even one iota?
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,435
7,357
136
And these are the same people who bitch and cry at every perceived action they feel is undermining congressional authority?

And yet they keep shirking their oversight authority. When the Senate Intelligence Committee computers were hacked, was anyone held responsible? When intelligence officials repeatedly went in front of Congress and lied, was anyone held responsible? etc...
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,584
7,645
136
We do know obama's negotiating position and what obama would like to see. Whether Iran has to wait 12 months or 10 years is what is at stake now. The framework of the agreement is widely known. Sorry I have to point that out to you.
Deal or not, Iran WILL have nuclear weapons.

The purpose of the agreement is not to secure a victory, that's impossible without war. The agreement is to manage our loss on the subject, to save face and sketch out whatever benefits we can find.

If the GOP wants the United States to go to war with Iran, they should be up front about it and publicly campaign for that war.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
You don't know much about the details of the obama's deal with Iran do you? Maybe obama does not either and that is part of the problem. Negotiations intially tried to eliminate Iran's nuclear infrastructure.... but now it is basically about how long wil Iran have to wait for inspections to stop.

Hogwash. It's important to realize that the experts in the field, the IAEA, are intimately involved behind the scenes & would balk at any agreement that would compromise their integrity. Their efforts would be part of it for the foreseeable future.

The notion that the Obama Admin is somehow selling out American interests is entirely scurrilous. It's entirely in our interests to have a verifiable agreement w/ Iran, one that satisfies their nuclear power ambitions & our own concerns wrt nuclear weapons.

There is no constructive alternative.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Deal or not, Iran WILL have nuclear weapons.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

The purpose of the agreement is not to secure a victory, that's impossible without war. The agreement is to manage our loss on the subject, to save face and sketch out whatever benefits we can find.

If the GOP wants the United States to go to war with Iran, they should be up front about it and publicly campaign for that war.

Even the Bushistas lacked the arrogant stupidity to attack Iran. The consequences are incalculable.

We'd do well to expand a nuclear agreement into a much broader grand bargain of sorts, both sides burying the hatchet & working together. Hardliners on both sides feed off each other to suit their own power agendas, neither acting in the interests of their own people.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,711
6,198
126
Iran is an ancient civilization full of wonderful people, people just like us. The puritanical fanaticism of the Iranian leadership will fade as all fanaticism does with time. We were created in the image of happy apes of God, so every child that is born is a revolution waiting to happen. It is you of little faith that reach for the weapon, filled with the psychotic fear of traumas that happened long ago. There is only love and love is the answer to everything. Relax and be happy. You have an allotted time.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,338
15,135
136
Gotta love that patriotism! Nothing is more patriotic than undermining the president who is actively involved in negation a with a foreign power.

I could understand the republicans making a public statement to the same effect to get obama to come to congress for approval but to give a letter directly to Iran? That's disgusting and quite frankly makes the republicans look like complete tools.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,782
1,540
126
Who do these guys even represent? Let's assume each senator represents 1% of the US electorate (which we know they don't), these guys don't even represent a majority of the electorate and they couldn't even get 50 of the republican Senators to sign on. Yet they feel they have more of a voice to speak for the US than the duly twice elected President who is the clearest majority voice for the US?

Honestly, I can understand why a lot of people believe a lot of this has to do with Race.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Do these Senators like sending other people's kids to die that much? They couldn't even get a majority of senators to sign the letter. It seems like Politics is an ends that justify every means for the GOP.

Where did the loyal opposition go? And how did we end up with the fifth column in Congress?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
While I generally support Obama in trying to get something, pretty much anything, in return for Iran going nuclear, it's worth pointing out that this is a President attempting to unilaterally defeat sanctions established by Congress. Unless one wants a king, this is not a trivial thing.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,818
49,514
136
While I generally support Obama in trying to get something, pretty much anything, in return for Iran going nuclear, it's worth pointing out that this is a President attempting to unilaterally defeat sanctions established by Congress. Unless one wants a king, this is not a trivial thing.

Care to explain?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
While I generally support Obama in trying to get something, pretty much anything, in return for Iran going nuclear, it's worth pointing out that this is a President attempting to unilaterally defeat sanctions established by Congress. Unless one wants a king, this is not a trivial thing.

Not exactly. Sanctions were established to supposedly force Iran into an agreement. Should we achieve one, sanctions will become untenable.

Or does Congress not want an agreement?
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,880
34,834
136
While I generally support Obama in trying to get something, pretty much anything, in return for Iran going nuclear, it's worth pointing out that this is a President attempting to unilaterally defeat sanctions established by Congress. Unless one wants a king, this is not a trivial thing.

Within the acts that congress has passed to impose sanctions the president has some degree of latitude. Those that do not of course cant' be altered without an act. A lot of what Iran is subject to actually stems from executive orders and other policies that Congress has nothing to do with.

Unless you are going to argue he somehow can't undo his own executive orders and those of his predecessors in contravention of all precedent...
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,060
38,578
136
There's no defending this. The GOP is a fucking disgrace.

Unbelievable.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Within the acts that congress has passed to impose sanctions the president has some degree of latitude. Those that do not of course cant' be altered without an act. A lot of what Iran is subject to actually stems from executive orders and other policies that Congress has nothing to do with.

Unless you are going to argue he somehow can't undo his own executive orders and those of his predecessors in contravention of all precedent...
I have no problem with Obama undoing past executive orders with new ones, assuming he can get something worthwhile in return. But as we've seen with immigration law, his "some degree of latitude" can sometimes be the polar opposite of the actual law. Where he wants to overturn Congressionally passed laws (as opposed to unopposed executive orders, which I very much dislike becoming law) I think he should come back to Congress and make his case. And if he expects it to have the force of law, it needs to be formalized as a treaty. Although frankly, I'd prefer to not have a treaty; we always seem to get the short end of those deals.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,880
34,834
136
I have no problem with Obama undoing past executive orders with new ones, assuming he can get something worthwhile in return. But as we've seen with immigration law, his "some degree of latitude" can sometimes be the polar opposite of the actual law. Where he wants to overturn Congressionally passed laws (as opposed to unopposed executive orders, which I very much dislike becoming law) I think he should come back to Congress and make his case. And if he expects it to have the force of law, it needs to be formalized as a treaty. Although frankly, I'd prefer to not have a treaty; we always seem to get the short end of those deals.

Congress is free to impeach him if he's violating the law, which he won't in any action taken.

Most foreign policy is executed via executive agreement anymore and it's been that way for quite some time. He would be acting entirely with his authority if he agreed to roll back the executive orders his and previous administrations have put in place in exchange for concessions. I think the odds of congress passing a "treaty" to be extremely low since no money is required and in large part neither is their consent no to mention they can barely avoid tripping over their own feet these days.

I'm finding scant evidence of Obama acting like a king.
 

Mxylplyx

Diamond Member
Mar 21, 2007
4,197
101
106
The Republicans are setting a terrible precedent here, not that I am surprised. They have lost any legitimacy to govern in a responsible manner. How the hell is any president supposed to conduct a cohesive foreign policy if an opposition congress is willing to do such a thing? If they dont like what Obama is doing then win a damn election. I'd elect to arrest them all if I could.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
I thought this was an interesting take on it.

http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...open-letter-iran-first-step-andrew-c-mccarthy

The letter is a step in the right direction, although it is unfortunate in a couple of respects. First, it is inaccurate. The senators write: “Under our Constitution, while the president negotiates international agreements, Congress plays the significant role of ratifying them. In the case of a treaty, the Senate must ratify it by a two-thirds vote.” Actually, the Senate does not ratify treaties. It is supposed to provide “advice and consent” to the president in the making of treaties, and must “consent” by a two-thirds majority if the treaty provisions are to become binding (U.S. Const., art. II, sec. 2.). It is the president who ratifies the treaty if the Senate consents. A president is not required to ratify a treaty after Senate consent, and a president may unilaterally abrogate a treaty without Senate consent (as, for example, President George W. Bush did in 2001 with the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty with the former Soviet Union).

Substantively, this is a small point. After all, many people understandably conflate consent with ratification, since a treaty cannot be ratified absent Senate consent. But when the point of a letter is to lecture people about our law, getting the law wrong is, shall we say, unbecoming. It is also all well and good to inform the jihadist regime, as the Republican senators do, that the president is term-limited and has less than two years to go, whereas senators are not term-limited. Thus, the letter explains, most senators who object to Obama’s negotiations with Iran will still be around after he is out of office. But it is gratingly grandiose for the senators — many of whom are currently very unpopular with their constituents — to brag that they will be around for “perhaps decades” after Obama is gone.

Moreover, even if that last assertion were true, there is less to it than meets the eye. The senators’ point is that, if Obama’s agreement is not approved and ratified, it will have the status of a “mere executive agreement” between the president and Ayatollah Khamenei. Well, yes . . . but the next president could honor the agreement, which presidents tend to do. Furthermore, this particular Senate has been unwilling or unable to block presidential overreach of any kind. So while the senators may manage to get themselves reelected for “perhaps decades,” much more consequential for Iran’s purposes is the question: Who will become president in 2017?

All that said, it is good that the senators wish to put Iran on notice that they will not consider the United States to be bound by an unratified agreement between Obama and the mullahs. If the senators want to do something really helpful, though, they will move forthwith from writing this letter to passing a “sense of the Senate” resolution. It should state, in no uncertain terms, that under our Constitution the United States is not bound, our sovereign powers are not affected, and no legal duties may be imposed on our government or our citizens, unless any international agreement with Iran is submitted to the Senate for approval and then ratified after a two-thirds majority has consented. It is important to do this for a few reasons. First, it puts the White House on notice that tolerance among the people’s representatives is exhausted when it comes to Obama’s appeasement approach to a government that has made itself our enemy for over 30 years. Second, it would strengthen the hand of this president or any future president to drive a hard bargain with Iran. Third, it would force Democrats to go on record regarding their position on Obama’s dealings with the mullahs. Fourth and finally, it would undermine what I call the “international-law game.”

On that last point, it has become the approach of transnational progressives to circumvent the Constitution’s treaty requirements. Presidents sign bilateral or multilateral international agreements that often contain statist and counter-constitutional provisions that no president (except maybe Obama) would dare propose as legislation. Knowing there is no chance of getting such an agreement approved, the president does not submit it to the Senate, and it is never ratified. Nevertheless, the agreement is approved by other countries, which start acting on the presumption that the president’s signature binds the U.S. In Washington, the administrative state, and particularly its sprawling complex of executive-branch bureaucracies (including the State and Defense Departments), begin to conduct their affairs as if the agreement were binding. The federal courts may even start citing the unratified treaty in legal opinions.

On the basis of all this, the international lawyers and organizations such as the United Nations, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, and the European Union — all of which have an interest in being able to trump the U.S. Constitution’s protections of individual liberty and American sovereignty — begin to argue that the unratified agreement has transmogrified into “customary international law”; thus, the argument goes, lest it be considered an international outlaw, the United States must abide by the terms of the agreement even if the Senate has not ratified it.

This hocus-pocus works, at least as a practical matter, because the Senate fails to defend its institutional turf by speaking up and conveying dissent in a formal way. Senators seem to think they need do no more than resist approving international agreements. But as we’re seeing with Obama’s Iran negotiations, they are sometimes not even asked to approve. In any event, it is not sufficient to refrain from saying “yes”; the Senate needs to take unambiguous action by saying “no.” A “sense of the Senate” resolution would undermine any legal claim that an unratified international agreement binds the United States in any way. In light of the threat posed by a nuclear Iran — the world’s most destructive weapons within reach for the world’s foremost state sponsor of terrorism — it is crucial that the Senate make itself heard in a formal, forceful manner. A letter will not do the trick.
 
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