Separation of church and state?

[Hayabusa Rider]

Don't know what state you're in, but in California Uni PD have ALL the powers and arrest authority of any other police dept. In fact their jurisdiction extends up to 1 mile off campus. I've seen them in residential neighborhoods.

You want to give that to "church police"?

FirNaTine has a valid point I believe. If the government was providing funds for the establishment of a private police force then I would strongly object. If the "jurisdiction" was unreasonably beyond church property then the same. If the police were to use their authority to enforce religious doctrine, then absolutely not.

Do I like this? Not really, but from a Constitutional perspective, this isn't in violation. If any of the concerns I addressed were part of the agreement, then nope. How far this authority extends does need to be taken into consideration.

One might argue that NO campus, hospital or any other organization should be allowed to have LEO powers then we have a different argument.

 

[Viper1j]

FirNaTine has a valid point I believe. If the government was providing funds for the establishment of a private police force then I would strongly object. If the "jurisdiction" was unreasonably beyond church property then the same. If the police were to use their authority to enforce religious doctrine, then absolutely not.

Do I like this? Not really, but from a Constitutional perspective, this isn't in violation. If any of the concerns I addressed were part of the agreement, then nope. How far this authority extends does need to be taken into consideration.

One might argue that NO campus, hospital or any other organization should be allowed to have LEO powers then we have a different argument.

You don't get it. Under California law, if you're a cop anywhere, you're a cop everywhere. Take a look at California Penal Code 832 PC.

https://post.ca.gov/pc-832-arrest-and-firearms-course

PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Course
The PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Course (PC 832 Course) is the minimum training standard for California peace officers as specified in Commission Regulation 1005. This training may be met by successful completion of a basic training course (e.g., Regular Basic Course, Specialized Investigators' Basic Course, and Level III Modular Format Course) or as a separate stand-alone certified course.

• View schedule of Courses
• PC 832 Arrest Course Presenters
• PC 832 Firearms Course Presenters
• PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Course Presenters
• PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Requalification
  

Curriculum

The Arrest and Firearms (PC 832) course consists of two components, which total a minimum of 64 hours. The Arrest component has a 40-hour requirement, and the Firearms component has a 24-hour requirement. These components are divided into 14 individual topics, called Learning Domains. The Learning Domains contain the minimum required foundational information for given subjects. The training and testing specifications for a particular domain may also include information on required instructional activities and testing requirements. The specific learning domains are identified in the PC 832 training specifications.

Tests

The Arrest component includes a 100-question, multiple-choice written examination and several skill examinations on Arrest and Control Techniques. The Firearms component includes a firearms range qualification examination. All tests are graded pass/fail, with one retest opportunity per examination. If a retest is failed, the corresponding component of the PC 832 Course must be repeated in its entirety.

Requalification Requirement (Three Year Rule)

As specified in Commission Regulation 1080, requalification of PC 832 training is required before exercising peace officer powers when:

• An individual does not become employed as a peace officer within three years of successful completion of PC 832 training, or
• An individual, completes PC 832 training, and subsequently has a three-year-or-longer break in service as a peace officer.
  

To requalify, an individual must successfully complete PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Requalification.


There's even more at the link.

Technically, a "church police officer" in Los Angeles, is just a regular cop on vacation in San Francisco, he takes his gun with them, and his license to kill is still preserved.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Sorry, what point is it that you feel we are all missing? That what The Constitution says is that the government must be neutral to religion? That it can neither support, nor interfere with it?

As I mentioned already, other schools in Alabama and elsewhere are already allowed to appoint their own police. But the article is vague on whether this school would have already qualified, but for it being "religious."

From the OP linked article:
Church officials said current Alabama state law "allows certain educational institutions to appoint and employ one or more suitable persons to act as police officers to keep off intruders and prevent trespass upon the institution property," according to a statement made to WBRC in Birmingham.

"We are grateful to the governor and our elected officials for approving our request to be added to the existing Alabama" law, the statement concluded.

So, if a secular private 2,000 student school system with campuses in two counties would be allowed to appoint police, this school is now being treated the same. And no tax money is going to support said church security in the form of police being needed for security there.

Now, one final point is that is sad that we feel the need for armed security or police at schools and churches, but that is hardly unique to this church or even Alabama.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...urch-alabama-gov-police-force-law/1525124001/
Here is a link with more information note -- Per the website, the officers will have to complete state certified training by the Peace Officers Standards and Training Commission and be trained on the proper use of a non-lethal weapon.

 

[JEDIYoda]

You don't get it. Under California law, if you're a cop anywhere, you're a cop everywhere. Take a look at California Penal Code 832 PC.

https://post.ca.gov/pc-832-arrest-and-firearms-course

PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Course
The PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Course (PC 832 Course) is the minimum training standard for California peace officers as specified in Commission Regulation 1005. This training may be met by successful completion of a basic training course (e.g., Regular Basic Course, Specialized Investigators' Basic Course, and Level III Modular Format Course) or as a separate stand-alone certified course.

• View schedule of Courses
• PC 832 Arrest Course Presenters
• PC 832 Firearms Course Presenters
• PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Course Presenters
• PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Requalification

Curriculum

The Arrest and Firearms (PC 832) course consists of two components, which total a minimum of 64 hours. The Arrest component has a 40-hour requirement, and the Firearms component has a 24-hour requirement. These components are divided into 14 individual topics, called Learning Domains. The Learning Domains contain the minimum required foundational information for given subjects. The training and testing specifications for a particular domain may also include information on required instructional activities and testing requirements. The specific learning domains are identified in the PC 832 training specifications.

Tests

The Arrest component includes a 100-question, multiple-choice written examination and several skill examinations on Arrest and Control Techniques. The Firearms component includes a firearms range qualification examination. All tests are graded pass/fail, with one retest opportunity per examination. If a retest is failed, the corresponding component of the PC 832 Course must be repeated in its entirety.

Requalification Requirement (Three Year Rule)

As specified in Commission Regulation 1080, requalification of PC 832 training is required before exercising peace officer powers when:

• An individual does not become employed as a peace officer within three years of successful completion of PC 832 training, or
• An individual, completes PC 832 training, and subsequently has a three-year-or-longer break in service as a peace officer.

To requalify, an individual must successfully complete PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Requalification.


There's even more at the link.

Technically, a "church police officer" in Los Angeles, is just a regular cop on vacation in San Francisco, he takes his gun with them, and his license to kill is still preserved.

You are getting all hot and bothered over nothing!! You are putting the emphasis on "church Police officer" instead of putting the emphasis where it belongs -- which is this person is trained by and meets all requirements of a Police Officer!
It would appear that you don`t get it!!
Read this -- https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/...iction-where-can-the-police-make-arrests.html

 

[Viper1j]

You are getting all hot and bothered over nothing!! You are putting the emphasis on "church Police officer" instead of putting the emphasis where it belongs -- which is this person is trained by and meets all requirements of a Police Officer!
It would appear that you don`t get it!!
Read this -- https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/...iction-where-can-the-police-make-arrests.html

You're out a restaurant with the wife celebrating your 20th anniversary. You order a bottle of champagne, when it's delivered, a guy walks up to you and asks you to step outside, he flashes a badge that says "First Baptist Church Police".

Do you meekly follow him outside? After all, everybody says just obey the police and you won't have any problems.

 

[JEDIYoda]

You're out a restaurant with the wife celebrating your 20th anniversary. You order a bottle of champagne, when it's delivered, a guy walks up to you and asks you to step outside, he flashes a badge that says "First Baptist Church Police".

Do you meekly follow him outside? After all, everybody says just obey the police and you won't have any problems.

Your being an idiot or an alarmist or somebody who does not understand what you are talking about!
I just posted an article about Police jurisdiction. Plus you have to be a total fool if you believe for one minute theose lawfully appointed officers for the church are out to arrest you for sinning! Only an idiot would believe or even think that is remotely possible!

 

[ImpulsE69]

Your being an idiot or an alarmist or somebody who does not understand what you are talking about!
I just posted an article about Police jurisdiction. Plus you have to be a total fool if you believe for one minute theose lawfully appointed officers for the church are out to arrest you for sinning! Only an idiot would believe or even think that is remotely possible!

Uhh...history would like a word with you...

 

[JEDIYoda]

Uhh...history would like a word with you...

Truth be told please point out where the example that Viperij gave, has ever been true?? I am sorry I see no pressing issue here.....

 

[ImpulsE69]

Truth be told please point out where the example that Viperij gave, has ever been true?? I am sorry I see no pressing issue here.....

You mean the part where you said the churches lawfully appointed officers are out to arrest you for sinning that would never happen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_and_state_in_medieval_Europe

Even when not in front as government the church had/has massive power to sway law and who was imprisoned in history. It's probably the lowest it's ever been at this current time at least in the US.

 

[ImpulsE69]

duplicate

 

[Viper1j]

Truth be told please point out where the example that Viperij gave, has ever been true?? I am sorry I see no pressing issue here.....

Well gee.. Have you ever heard of a little ditty called the Spanish Inquisition? Or how about that Crusades thing they had going for a while? From what I understand it was quite the party. And religious-based too!

Oh! And let's not forget that whole Salem Trial thing, Right here in the good old US of A, where they were burning hot chicks because a crazy person told him they were witches! Think religion had anything to do with that?

 

[Zorba]

I don’t see this as any different than university police departments on nearly every college campus. I presume the “church police” will have the same very restricted to non-existent powers to arrest people and any charges brought by the city/county DA with trial in their courts.

At least in Oklahoma, University police are an arm of the Highway Patrol have full policing authority.

 

[senseamp]

I wouldn't buy a car made in Alabama. Beyond that, not much I can do if they are intent on being a shithole.

 

[Zorba]

FirNaTine has a valid point I believe. If the government was providing funds for the establishment of a private police force then I would strongly object. If the "jurisdiction" was unreasonably beyond church property then the same. If the police were to use their authority to enforce religious doctrine, then absolutely not.

Do I like this? Not really, but from a Constitutional perspective, this isn't in violation. If any of the concerns I addressed were part of the agreement, then nope. How far this authority extends does need to be taken into consideration.

One might argue that NO campus, hospital or any other organization should be allowed to have LEO powers then we have a different argument.

I object for the private police force side, regardless of the religious side. LEO should not be reporting to private entities.

I'd think these private organizations could pay the city PD or county sheriff to provide dedicated officers. This is what amusement parks do. Disney World's city (Reedy Creek) could run their own police but they contract with Orange County sheriff, even though they run their own fire department.

Outside of having control, I really don't get why a private organization would even want to deal with it. But it's the desire to have control over LEO that worries me.

 

[pmv]

I await with some curiosity what will happen when an Islamic school asks for the same thing.

 

[DarthKyrie]

Don't know what state you're in, but in California Uni PD have ALL the powers and arrest authority of any other police dept. In fact their jurisdiction extends up to 1 mile off campus. I've seen them in residential neighborhoods.

You want to give that to "church police"?

Most people don't fully think things through before they make a decision like giving the Church their own private police department. Next, they're going to want to give them their own courts. I want to know if all religions will be able to have their own police department? Every religion has its own laws and we also have our regular laws as well. Which do we follow if they contradict?

I await with some curiosity what will happen when an Islamic school asks for the same thing.

I do as well but at the same time I know how certain people will react to that and those same people would support this.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Well gee.. Have you ever heard of a little ditty called the Spanish Inquisition? Or how about that Crusades thing they had going for a while? From what I understand it was quite the party. And religious-based too!

Oh! And let's not forget that whole Salem Trial thing, Right here in the good old US of A, where they were burning hot chicks because a crazy person told him they were witches! Think religion had anything to do with that?

Your just being an idiot now and the sad thing is you know it!!
Please name take the time to honestly address the issue of an instance within lets say the last 20 years when your alarmist reaction was proven to be correct......

 

[JEDIYoda]

You mean the part where you said the churches lawfully appointed officers are out to arrest you for sinning that would never happen?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_and_state_in_medieval_Europe

Even when not in front as government the church had/has massive power to sway law and who was imprisoned in history. It's probably the lowest it's ever been at this current time at least in the US.

I believ that you are actually beintg s9incere in your response! But again you really had to stretch for that.....
I see no instance when that has been true where a church used their own Police force to subject there people to there whims as far as what they believe the Bible tells them to do!
In the article it states -- Church officials say they need their own police force to protect its 4,100 members, 2,000 students and two campuses in neighboring Jefferson and Shelby counties, especially in light of armed attacks on schools and churches.
Nowhere does it say it needs its own police force to make sure people are behaving correctly according the the churches beliefs! It is strictly to be uased as the article says!
Sure with everythingt there is a possibility of things being corrupt. But to over exaggerate or cry about things that have not happened yet is childish!
Also say there police force does catch somebody trespassing with the intent to do bodily harm, tghen they have done their job!
Where as say they notify the police and once the police arrive 5 or 10 minutes later people are dead, who wins??

 

[cytg111]

I wonder if Jesus Christ PD takes applications from muslims? atheists? Buddihsts? Followers of the flying pasta monster? I would have questions of possible bias in a ... JCPD

 

[Indus]

As I've gotten older I have the view that while religion may help some people be better people, ultimately it is mostly used to justify hatred and and oppression of those who are different. I realize there are a few out there that may not be that way - such as Buddhism (and I don't know that much about them).

It is the oldest means of control. Do this or blah blah blah will happen.

 

[sportage]

Thomas Jefferson knew that all hell would break out if separation of church and state was not adhered to.
It wasn't.... and now it has.

 

[zinfamous]

What?

I want the full weight of the government involved in religion. I want police arresting Baptist’s for buying alcohol, Mormons arrested for buying coffee, Catholics arrested for sex out of wedlock, Jews arrested for eating a cheese burger, Muslims arrested for eating bacon.

I want the IRS to allow your local priest, minister, rabbi, or iman to directly pull your tithe straight from your paycheck.

This is the first step towards the glorious future with the government all up in people’s religious business.

He blindly supports the modern apartheid state that is Israel, so no shock that dude gets horny over the type of world that you envision.

 

[zinfamous]

Your being an idiot or an alarmist or somebody who does not understand what you are talking about!
I just posted an article about Police jurisdiction. Plus you have to be a total fool if you believe for one minute theose lawfully appointed officers for the church are out to arrest you for sinning! Only an idiot would believe or even think that is remotely possible!

lol, and this guy still supports Israel.

LOL!

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

You don't get it. Under California law, if you're a cop anywhere, you're a cop everywhere. Take a look at California Penal Code 832 PC.

https://post.ca.gov/pc-832-arrest-and-firearms-course

PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Course
The PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Course (PC 832 Course) is the minimum training standard for California peace officers as specified in Commission Regulation 1005. This training may be met by successful completion of a basic training course (e.g., Regular Basic Course, Specialized Investigators' Basic Course, and Level III Modular Format Course) or as a separate stand-alone certified course.

• View schedule of Courses
• PC 832 Arrest Course Presenters
• PC 832 Firearms Course Presenters
• PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Course Presenters
• PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Requalification

Curriculum

The Arrest and Firearms (PC 832) course consists of two components, which total a minimum of 64 hours. The Arrest component has a 40-hour requirement, and the Firearms component has a 24-hour requirement. These components are divided into 14 individual topics, called Learning Domains. The Learning Domains contain the minimum required foundational information for given subjects. The training and testing specifications for a particular domain may also include information on required instructional activities and testing requirements. The specific learning domains are identified in the PC 832 training specifications.

Tests

The Arrest component includes a 100-question, multiple-choice written examination and several skill examinations on Arrest and Control Techniques. The Firearms component includes a firearms range qualification examination. All tests are graded pass/fail, with one retest opportunity per examination. If a retest is failed, the corresponding component of the PC 832 Course must be repeated in its entirety.

Requalification Requirement (Three Year Rule)

As specified in Commission Regulation 1080, requalification of PC 832 training is required before exercising peace officer powers when:

• An individual does not become employed as a peace officer within three years of successful completion of PC 832 training, or
• An individual, completes PC 832 training, and subsequently has a three-year-or-longer break in service as a peace officer.

To requalify, an individual must successfully complete PC 832 Arrest and Firearms Requalification.


There's even more at the link.

Technically, a "church police officer" in Los Angeles, is just a regular cop on vacation in San Francisco, he takes his gun with them, and his license to kill is still preserved.

If this is applicable to this situation then I do have an issue as police powers would extend beyond the environs of the church. Religious properties seem to be problematic. Police often are in places like malls to provide security beyond private security, but stationing police on church property? There would be cries about the separation of church and state. So what if Muslims had a similar compromise? Like any other religion, their authority would be limited to secular law only. I wish some black churches had this option.

 

[Viper1j]

If this is applicable to this situation then I do have an issue as police powers would extend beyond the environs of the church. Religious properties seem to be problematic. Police often are in places like malls to provide security beyond private security, but stationing police on church property? There would be cries about the separation of church and state. So what if Muslims had a similar compromise? Like any other religion, their authority would be limited to secular law only. I wish some black churches had this option.

ALL "police" are endowed with "the POWER OF THE STATE". You're not sworn as a police officer for the city of (fill in the blank), or the church of (fill in the blank). You're a "state certified" SWORN officer of the peace. The very fact that you're a "state sworn" officer, gives you state wide authority. The only difference between an LAPD cop, and a Corona PD cop, is the name at the top of the paycheck.

There was just a story recently where an off duty LAPD officer got into an altercation in a Corona, Ca. Walmart and shot and killed the guy. If that doesn't clear up the confusion, nothing will.

Now, imagine if the officer in question was in fact a First Presbyterian PD officer.