Seriously, explain like I am a child...what's the beef between Israel and Palestine?

[Exophase]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish-Roman_War

This set the wheels in motion.....2000 years later and it's still a crappy piece of dirt people fight over. It's not even good land.

Or if you really want to go back... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity

The desire to return "home" has been deeply rooted in Jewish tradition. That, and the desire to have a Jewish tate in general. I'd generally consider the idea of establishing a country under a common ethnicity and cultural/religious tradition very backwards for the 20th century, but it's a little more understandable given how many people hated them for that ethnicity.

A lot of Christians also seemed to think it was the proper thing to do, particularly with Revelation talking about restoring Israel.. something of a self-fulfilling prophecy I guess.

One thing that the discussion so far regarding Israel vs Palestine/Arab world has left out (or at least I haven't seen it mentioned) is the amplified role the two played as proxies in the cold war.

 

[Broheim]

No Broheim, you have presented "crock of shit."

"Uninhabited desert" is a full on lie to deny the long standing towns and villages that were annexed and renamed by Israelis in the state of Israel. It is a further perpetuated lie for you to omit the ever continuing colonisation of territory outside the State of Israel with annexation of land into the West Bank.

In neglecting and dismissing the existing presence and title of land by non-mentioned lesser people (many of whom are refugee survivors who to Gaza from what is now Israel), you're intentionally repeating a long standing PR revision to deny the facts of ethnic cleansing. You have ignored the very real and lasting presence of a strong native population that was not "Jewish" nor British.

As the British were forced out via Zionist terrorism, your falsified tale only leaves Jews as the remaining population. Such a fairy tale narrative intentionally ignores the pre-existence of other Palestinians under various religions denominations, such as Sunni Muslim, Christian, Druze, and Samaritans.

you can't read a map, can you? the 1917 map gives the impression that all the land was owned by Palestinians, which it was not. It also gives the impression that there was no Jewish land, which there was. I never said Jews where the only people living in Mandatory Palestine, but I guess you don't posses the power of reading comprehension...

"Uninhabited desert" is not a lie because it in no way implies there weren't settlements dotted around the map, that still doesn't change the fact that most of the land was unused desert. I guess Greenland must all be a sprawling metropolis because there are settlements along the western coast.

It's down right hilarious you claim I erase the Palestinian Arabs and then you turn around and do the same, acting like it was only the Jews that engaged in terrorism, when the Arabs were in fact the worst of the bunch.

 

[Genx87]

This started brewing in the 1920s and ramped up through the 1930s. Arab Muslims in British palastine watched as jews immigrating from an increasingly hostile Europe were changing their demography. Inspired by the national socialists in Germany they started fighting the British via Arab nationalism in an attempt to take control of the land and stop the immigration. Zionist Jews during this time also started fighting the British to take control of the land. At the end of WWII it was obvious the british didnt want to spend the resources and men occupying land two peoples were willing to kill over. And there was a sizeable influx of Jews leaving war torn Euroep. So British palastine was split by UN mandate. Arab muslims decided to invade the Jewish part of palastine and lost. There has been fighting ever since.

 

[Exophase]

There's a pretty comprehensive but easy to read write-up here:

http://www.merip.org/primer-palestine-israel-arab-israeli-conflict-new

 

[Whiskey16]

There's a pretty comprehensive but easy to read write-up here:

http://www.merip.org/primer-palestine-israel-arab-israeli-conflict-new

Thank you, that is a decent summation.

 

[Jaepheth]

Here ya go:

http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/this_land_is_mine/

 

[GoPackGo]

4000 years of fighting

</thread>

 

[Anubis]

Folks are living on the land.
Abraham moves into the hood.
Israelites move to Egypt.
Israelites move back, slaughter everybody, steal land.
Assyria, Babylon, and Egypt come to call.
Ethiopians, Philistines, and Arabs come to call.
Persians show up, give Israel back to Israelites
Greeks come to call.
Greeks and Egyptian Greeks have issues
Maccabees get pissed, Israelites back on top
Romans come to call
Romans get pissed, send Israelites packing
Romans split up
Byzantines let Jews back in
Jews revolt, get squashed
The Persians come back, the Byzantines are like "no way Jose"
The Caliphs come to call
Other Caliphs show up, caliph on caliph action ensues
Egyptians are back in the saddle again
No wait, they're gone
No, they're back and put a Jew in charge
Turks show up
Crusaders show up
Mongols show up
Egypt's back then the Ottomans
Jews are back
French pass through
Egypt's back one more time
Arabs get pissed
Turks still here
French are back and the Brits show up
Arabs, Brits, and French kick Turk butt
More Jews in
Jews declare themselves top dog, the recent unpleasantness ensues
Here we are.

lol that's the best explanation yet

 

[Darwin333]

Folks are living on the land.
Abraham moves into the hood.
Israelites move to Egypt.
Israelites move back, slaughter everybody, steal land.
Assyria, Babylon, and Egypt come to call.
Ethiopians, Philistines, and Arabs come to call.
Persians show up, give Israel back to Israelites
Greeks come to call.
Greeks and Egyptian Greeks have issues
Maccabees get pissed, Israelites back on top
Romans come to call
Romans get pissed, send Israelites packing
Romans split up
Byzantines let Jews back in
Jews revolt, get squashed
The Persians come back, the Byzantines are like "no way Jose"
The Caliphs come to call
Other Caliphs show up, caliph on caliph action ensues
Egyptians are back in the saddle again
No wait, they're gone
No, they're back and put a Jew in charge
Turks show up
Crusaders show up
Mongols show up
Egypt's back then the Ottomans
Jews are back
French pass through
Egypt's back one more time
Arabs get pissed
Turks still here
French are back and the Brits show up
Arabs, Brits, and French kick Turk butt
More Jews in
Jews declare themselves top dog, the recent unpleasantness ensues
Here we are.

LOL

Well done.

 

[Sonikku]

i gotta say AMDHUNTER, i like your style.

I hate it. You aren't supposed to ask questions on matters of which you are ignorant on this board, you're supposed to make an assumption based on media news casts and start defending/arguing said points like your life depends on it.


It may sound foolish, but it is our way. The P and N way.

 

[Exophase]

I don't understand why people are now talking about slaughter carried about by Israelites thousands of years ago. The Bible says this was all basically done to establish a unified kingdom of Israel after an Egyptian exodus, but modern archeology casts serious doubt on there ever having been an exodus or a unified kingdom. At the very least it's all greatly exaggerated. So why now consider a history based almost solely on what the Bible says? Because it makes the Jews look more genetically predisposed towards violence and conquering?

 

[Lepton87]

The Bible says this was all basically done to establish a unified kingdom of Israel after an Egyptian exodus, but modern archeology casts serious doubt on there ever having been an exodus or a unified kingdom.

What a credible source, the bible also says that Noah built a ship that contained all animals so they didn't go extinct.

 

[Whiskey16]

Predictions can come true:

Israel's greatest fear is a relative moral standing against its opposition, and a such a diplomatic effort for Palestinian governance leaves Israel as the lone and prime perpetrator of high international crimes. Palestinian diplomacy and unstoppable moves towards even greater international recognition that go beyond the Palestinian Authority already having been recognised as a state government of the West Bank (9 states against the world do not nullify such reality), and then onto involvement into the International Criminal Court (ICC). For strategic goals of expansion, Israel needs a violent and ever present nemesis to redirect focus from Israeli crimes to the east.

Though not party to the ICC, such an international judicial body can directly act if a member state, such as he Palestinian Authority will be -- as I predict it to be within 2 years -- and appeals against any extra-territorial aggressor perpetrating crimes in its territory. Israel fears becoming a pariah, one on par and as widely vocally vilified as its former associate, the former Apartheid regime of South Africa. As Israeli expansion and high crimes continue, this will occur. Time is running out, and Israel will continue its illegal land grabs and distractionary wars.

 

[unokitty]

1847 Map of Mexico

The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people, and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it. Turkey threw out a million Greeks and Algeria a million Frenchman. Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees. Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single Arab...

Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious, it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world. --Eric Hoffer

If my memory serves me correctly a few years ago, the US President stated that the Israelis should give back all of the land that they had taken in war.

For weeks after that, whenever I met with my Mexican friends, they kept bringing up the 1848Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. They wanted to know when the US was going to give California and Texas back to Mexico. (Not that it matters to me whether my tax money goes to the crooks in DC or the crooks in Mexico City.)

Uno

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally Posted by Whiskey16
Israel's greatest fear is a relative moral standing against its opposition, and a such a diplomatic effort for Palestinian governance leaves Israel as the lone and prime perpetrator of high international crimes. Palestinian diplomacy and unstoppable moves towards even greater international recognition that go beyond the Palestinian Authority already having been recognised as a state government of the West Bank (9 states against the world do not nullify such reality), and then onto involvement into the International Criminal Court (ICC). For strategic goals of expansion, Israel needs a violent and ever present nemesis to redirect focus from Israeli crimes to the east.

Though not party to the ICC, such an international judicial body can directly act if a member state, such as he Palestinian Authority will be -- as I predict it to be within 2 years -- and appeals against any extra-territorial aggressor perpetrating crimes in its territory. Israel fears becoming a pariah, one on par and as widely vocally vilified as its former associate, the former Apartheid regime of South Africa. As Israeli expansion and high crimes continue, this will occur. Time is running out, and Israel will continue its illegal land grabs and distractionary wars.

hahahaha and your the guy who said Israel should commit genocide against itself by not defending itself....rofl~~

 

[TreVader]

The beef is that between 1900 and 1948 millions of Jews immigrated to what was then called Palestine, where there was already a population of Jews (but not even close to majority).

After WWII they decided to fight their own war, for their "Holy Land", where they ejected millions of Palestinians from their homeland and over 50 years slowly consolidated the Arab population in order to prevent it from exceeding the Jewish population (because Israel is a Jewish state).

Now obviously Egypt, Syria, what would later be Lebanon and Jordan all were not pleased to have an influx of millions of poor, now stateless Palestinians. They also were not pleased with millions of Jews immigrating into their backyard, and I think it should be understandable why.

So In 1948 the Arabs tried to kick the Jews our, failed miserably, and got more or less kicked out of Jerusalem themselves. In 1967 Israel sneak attacked Egypt, Syria, and Jordan and easily took the Sinai after destroying the air forces of the other nations.

In 1973 the Egyptians and Syrians sneak attacked Israel. Despite King Hussein of Jordan warning Israel, the Egyptians overran the Sinai and the Syrians got bogged down on the Golan heights.

Basically the Israelis kicked the Syrians asses but in turn had their asses kicked by the Egyptians. It was only after Ariel Sharon (at the time a tank commander) himself led a charge to take back positions west of the Sinai that the Egyptians were stopped.

Israelis give Egypt back the Sinai in 1981 IIRC. Maybe 83.

Basically Israel does more or less whatever it wants, Egypt is complicit and so is Jordan. Only Syria opposed Israel openly and they get bombed all the time for it.

So there is a long history of animosity there. The big starting point was the division of Palestine by the British.

 

[TreVader]

I don't think anybody is seriously asking Israel to "give back" the land. Maybe idiots and extremists.

What people want is an end to the settlements and the "master race" (for lack of a better term) ideology espoused by many Israelis. You can have your country but you cannot purposely control the racial makup without being an apartheid state.

Whatever you may think of Israel, it IS an apartheid state. Not nearly as extreme as South Africa but they get more extreme every day. If you are OK with apartheid then I guess Israel is a morally responsible state.

And I don't want to hear the usual "but the Palestinians did x" or "but Hamas and Hezbollah..." Just because terrorist use horrible tactics doesn't justify Israeli brutality.

 

[OutHouse]

If you're a child, this is all you would really understand...but even a 5 year old could understand they wouldn't want to be the yellow-land people.

to the victor goes the spoils.

 

[unokitty]

Mexico prior to US invasions...

I don't think anybody is seriously asking Israel to "give back" the land. Maybe idiots and extremists...

CNN: Obama calls for Israel's return to pre-1967 borders

Telegraph: Barack Obama: Israel must recognise 1967 borders

If Israel has a moral obligation to give back the land that they have obtained through war, why shouldn't my Mexican friends expect the US to give back the land the US obtained through war?

To be morally consistent, doesn't the US have an obligation to recognize Mexico's 1847 borders?

Just asking...

Uno

 

[TreVader]

Mexico prior to US invasions...



CNN: Obama calls for Israel's return to pre-1967 borders

Telegraph: Barack Obama: Israel must recognise 1967 borders

If Israel has a moral obligation to give back the land that they have obtained through war, why shouldn't my Mexican friends expect the US to give back the land the US obtained through war?

To be morally consistent, doesn't the US have an obligation to recognize Mexico's 1847 borders?

Just asking...

Uno

That's not "giving back" land, that's just not occupying it. The Golan Heights, Gaza, and west bank are all not parts of israel and therefore they can't keep them.


When I said "give back" land I meant land that they actually possessed and settled like certain parts of east jerusalem. Not land that they post a few soldiers and tanks nearby.


And you must not be too bright if your best argument is to say "the US government in 1847 thought it was morally O.K.!" because they also thought slavery and genocide was ok. Or do you support that too?

 

[unokitty]

And you must not be too bright if your best argument is to say "the US government in 1847 thought it was morally O.K.!" because they also thought slavery and genocide was ok. Or do you support that too?

LOL

 

[TreVader]

LOL

Great argument you made with that jpeg and "LOL", I can already tell you must have been the star of the debate team in high school!



Care to actually address what I said and explain how the US Govt. actions in the 1840s justify Israel's occupation of foreign land? Or do you have more stupid jpegs and "lulz" to make your case for you?

Edit: BTW in my original post I didn't call you racist, I called you stupid. You might want to read it again, but you may still be too stupid to understand....

 

[unokitty]

... BTW in my original post I didn't call you racist, I called you stupid. You might want to read it again, but you may still be too stupid to understand....

While you are welcome to imagine our exchange as an argument, the reality is that I just presented a question. And you responded with a barrage of insults.

Nonetheless, my Mexican friend's question remains.

If Obama thinks that Israel has a moral obligation to give back the land they took, doesn't the US have a similar obligation?

Insulting me doesn't constitute an argument...

We just have different perspectives. I'm okay with that.

If your not, that's your problem.

Uno

 

[inachu]

TO the OP.


It is about this:


My GOD IS BETTER THAN YOUR GOD!


But the above is a lie told by the european zionist who think their new age
judaism is really the original sect of judaism but that is a lie. They think their very own diaspora is not just for jews but for all people hence the movement of all people all over the globe as if that was a good thing. Because with that thinking you get people like Barbara Lerner Spectre who gives this false statements like: "If people do not intermix then their country will fail!"

This falsehood is based on the idea to weaken the middle east so that Israel can easily land grab surrounding muslim nations so that Israel can get their Biblical borders back.


Ancient arabian texts that are over 1,000 years old were in perfect unison with the jews with both sides agreeing that the muslim/jewish GOD are one and the same but it is the zionist/neocon/aipac members who lie and say they are not the same.

So the lesson here is to never listen to a zionist as they all lie. because their source is all corrupt and they should all move back to europe as they are european and not jews at all.

 

[MongGrel]

I don't think anybody is seriously asking Israel to "give back" the land. Maybe idiots and extremists.

What people want is an end to the settlements and the "master race" (for lack of a better term) ideology espoused by many Israelis. You can have your country but you cannot purposely control the racial makup without being an apartheid state.

Whatever you may think of Israel, it IS an apartheid state. Not nearly as extreme as South Africa but they get more extreme every day. If you are OK with apartheid then I guess Israel is a morally responsible state.

And I don't want to hear the usual "but the Palestinians did x" or "but Hamas and Hezbollah..." Just because terrorist use horrible tactics doesn't justify Israeli brutality.

You're turning into quite the next Stewox lately.